Vote For or Against THIEF 4 on steam?

[Ungoliant]

Originally Posted by Platinumoxicity

which one will you choose?

both. simultaneously. I will buy thi4f even if it requires st44m, to support the franchise, and PC gaming as a whole. Then when I bring it home, I will crack the hell out of it, play it without DRM or St44m, play as a 3rd person view female protagonist in a small city hub for 10 minutes, until my character drowns in a mud puddle that I could of escaped with my default equippable climbing gloves. Then I will cry a for a while, die a little inside, and then wonder why the hell i bought it when i knew it would suck, as now I can't return the game because the box is open.... hang on a minute....

ok, back up the train. Both. But conditionally, not simultaneously. I will not buy thi4f even if it requires st44m, and wait to see if the franchise has earned my friggin money. If the game doesn't suck, I'll go buy it, but I'm still sure as hell not putting up with any DRM or St44m. If it does suck.... well, bad games should be free (or cheap), and companies that ruin my favorite game series should go bankrupt, but not before the company HQ is destroyed in a structure fire.

[ToMegaTherion]

Ungoliant makes a good point. Buying a game and then doing perhaps-illegal things to it to remove any DRM is difficult to criticise for immorality. But just getting it for free illegally is generally wrong.

[Platinumoxicity]

All I'm saying that cracking a legally purchased copy of a game just to get it work shouldn't be something that any consumer should have to stand. In my opinion, any publisher who wants to sell you a game that wants to kill your pc or just not work doesn't deserve any money for it. But I guess anyone who used to advocate DRM should have figured that out by now.

[Skaruts]

Originally Posted by ToMegaTherion

The answer to your first question is "yes". You can always play a Steam game when you have no internet, unless something special has been done to it to make this impossible, which is nothing to do with Steam.

Unfortunately for me that isn't always true. When I got no internet, or when my connection fails, Steam usualy logs into offline mode a few times, but for some reason there's always a day (not long after) that steam only gives me back an error message saying it can't even go into offline mode. (Apparently it thinks it must be updated and obviously can't do it offline )

As a mapper for half life 2 deathmatch, this was always a huge encumbrance that would delay my works a lot...

As you can see here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vm9NU1jUWyw

[Boose77]

I for one plan on buying it on steam, i dont mind if they sell hard copies in stores. but to say no steam at all is rediculous. just because its sold on steam doesnt mean it has to use steam functions. and if you dont want it to be digitally distributed then your only hurting the company down the road. steam is also getting the game out to ppl where the game isnt sold in stores...therefore hurting ur fellow thieves

ive never had problems with steam except of my own fault, the features they put out are great and if there is a problem with a game you can almost always find out the fix on the steam forums.

I read the forum over at ttlg and this...

-Steam produtcs are so expensive as any other games, but later when you install a steam game, you´ll be forced to download updated and additional files for the game, therefore you are paying for more, and you´ll be paying more if in future if you reinstall the game in a new pc or in new windows system installed, so you´ll never know how much you´ll be paying in the future to replay a steam game.

is so false on many levels, ive never paid more then a retail store would charge for a game, most of the times ive paid less. yes download for updates are required but half the time ive gotten updates they are for fixes that were breaking the game anyways, and the only time they affected me was when i tried to play games with a MP function. Once i bought the game once ive NEVER paid for it again or any updates unless it was PAID DLC made by the company who made the game.

because you´ll never know the day of tommorrow, so if something bad happens to steam, like going out of business or data loss, you still want to be able to play your games , because many people such i like to replay a game after some years, just like seeing again a movie, an audio cd, reading a book and so one. So i like to know i´ve purchase a game that cointains all the files, a game wich i kow i can run as long as it is in my possession, and not a game which half of the files belong to someone´s company forever.

Steam has made it PERFECTLY CLEAR that in any case where steam/valve drops as a company or can not run its service anymore it will release all games users bought DRM FREE. the reason they control the game with steam is so that users that would rather hack the game and send it out illegally have a harder time. if you lose a game from steam your probably doing something you shouldnt and a steam ban only happens in severe cases.

Originally Posted by The_Raven
I myself am no fan of STEAM and DRM and would gladly see Thief IV not use it.

* First, Steam's less than stellar user interface.
* Second, the complete inability to roll back game breaking patches after having updated.
* Third, Valve's mandatory updates via STEAM have modified system requirements in the past; effectively imposing floating system requirements to their games.
* Fourth, I am quite opposed to the idea that any system or game requires one to activate over the internet in order to play a single player game.

1. I see no problem with it
2-3. games not made by valve are updated by the company who made the game but yes they still force the update on steam, yet how many ppl actually wait for ppl to post saying the update is broken even when u have a choice with a box game? and you gotta be really unlucky if you every game you updated breaks and needs a rollback. Also you shouldn't be buying a game that your computer cant handle a game upgrade or 2 if your pc meets the required specs or better then "floating specs" should not even be a concern
4. manu games that are SP that can be gotten on steam but are retail do not require steam for sp function - see M&M dark messiah

as for registration there are many games that only use steam registration to make use of MP functions, but u can install and play SP games just fine with no steam required at all.

most of the ppl i read that are against steam, are speaking of past expierences when steam was still new and being tweaked. try it now

Yes i know many people hate steam, but i know alot more who like it, there is no reason not to be on steam for sale. just because its on steam does not mean it requires all ppl to use steam features. sorry but

[kamilavalamp]

not only does drm force activation on people who bought the game,
but it also breaks the game with drm related crashes and bugs, ruins the game's performance, and makes the game completely unplayable for at least half the people that bought it, here are some examples:
fallout new vegas (completely unplayable due to preformance)
grand theft auto 4 (completely unplayable due to performance)
spore (completely unplayable due to not being able to start)
assassin's creed brotherhood (even single player unplayable due to activation servers)
and more and more and more
and on top of drm's getting cracked in within 24 hours of release (battlefield bad company 2)
the cracked versions work perfectly compared to the official releases
especially with steam where every new game is plagued with so many bugs its either unplayable (like fallout new vegas) or won't even start (grand theft auto san andreas, The Guild 2, many many others) and when converted to run without steam wala the games all work fine
and eidos if your worried about sales then let me tell you that a lot of people and groups of people have already boycotted steam and anything that requires it altogether
so putting games on steam will hurt sales needlessly since the only reason some people won't buy is because the game uses steam

[Boose77]

Of course your going to hear ppl complain about problems with a game when its first release, whether its drm related or not. but your obviously not going to hear the many other ppl who dont have problems post. its the devs problem to make sure there is no conflict between any pieces of software when ready to launch a game.

sry i dont like DRM either, steam is DRM but you say all these problems with performance issues are DRM related. new vegas had issues steam or not. look at cod4 no drm at all, played great. what happened? cod4 was pirated like it was going out of style and look what happened, mw2 had IWnet......its all a double edge sword

most problems are due to devs not taking the time to test thier games performance before hand. personally i dont think thief 4 is going to be drm'd with steam. i just want it to be sold on steam.

and if your gonna sit there and say that the cracked games work better then the copies sold, your obviously not paying for them to begin with, so how is drm affecting you anyways?

It oks not to want DRM, but to sit there and say no steam or no sale, it pretty dumb and it only ends with you missing out on a game while everyone else enjoys it and you end up buying it anyways

[Skaruts]

Well said. I don't like DRM's either, but the only reasons I hate steam are due to its own bugs, not for any issues with games. I never had any, at least not that I remember.

So I really don't understand all this fuss about steam.

And the only reason I don't buy games on steam anymore doesn't even have to do with DRM's or steam's own bugs. It's simply because I hate having to spend a whole day downloading, and bandwidths are limited around here.

All the rest is fine by me. Steam's DRMs aren't even like Ubisoft's DRMs that have quite a few issues. Like I said, had no problems so far with steam, and I own around 30 games.

If they sell it on steam, I won't mind. As long as I don't need steam or any other DRMs on the retail version for SP, I'm perfectly fine with it.

[Skaruts]

No. It's enough of a pain for me to not buy it on steam, but to not care if they also, but not only, sell it on steam, as long as it desn't prevent me from playing in SP without steam. Just like I said.

And I should have said "I don't buy games online anymore...". cuz that's not just about steam and it's not a steam/Valve sided problem.


EDIT: And btw, just a related note to the OP. Two things: The first reason pointed out is a little poor, even tho I agree the UI sucks. Second, Valve still has an 11 year old game with 2 or 3 expansions fully working, while Looking Glass has (sadly) ceissed to exist a long time ago. I'm not defending Valve, I'm only being righteous. I didn't read your post for long, but I read it today afternoon and I got these stuck in my throat...

[Harle]

At last count I had 86 games on my steam list(package deals are hard to resist, and admittedly a good number of those are little indie games or expansions for other games). I'm at a point where I would rather not buy a game that doesn't at least have a steam release.

Granted I would buy it regardless since it's Thief, but in most cases I'd wait for a steam release. I sympathize with people not wanting to have to download the game after buying the box. I don't sympathize with people who want to resell their games(I'm of the opinion that it's basically a black market and it harms developers). But if it's simply a matter of not wanting to use Steam, all I can recommend is that people give it an honest try. It is a remarkably cheap way to game if you pay attention to the store, and for those games that use Steamworks for their multiplayer aspects, it's wonderfully plug and play, no mucking around required. You just send an invite to your friend and you're done. Also the DRM steam uses is incredibly uninvasive compared to anything else Eidos is likely to use.

So yeah, I have zero problems with Steam, and me and friends have been using it pretty exclusively since the Orange Box came out.

Thief 4 on steam, please. =D

[ToMegaTherion]

Originally Posted by Harle

I don't sympathize with people who want to resell their games(I'm of the opinion that it's basically a black market and it harms developers).

Why are video games singled out as goods that you morally should not be allowed to resell?

[JFSOCC]

Originally Posted by Harle

. I don't sympathize with people who want to resell their games(I'm of the opinion that it's basically a black market and it harms developers).

A European High court judged this to be false. They argued that just like people lend and give each other used books or Video tapes/Dvd's, so they should be able to do the same with Games. I'll find the source, if you want.

[Boose77]

Originally Posted by JFSOCC

A European High court judged this to be false. They argued that just like people lend and give each other used books or Video tapes/Dvd's, so they should be able to do the same with Games. I'll find the source, if you want.

There is a difference between lending and reselling. and the reason he only said games was because *gasp* we are on a game forum.

Im sure EM is face palming already because people are already talking about reselling a game that still in development.

[Harle]

Originally Posted by JFSOCC

A European High court judged this to be false. They argued that just like people lend and give each other used books or Video tapes/Dvd's, so they should be able to do the same with Games. I'll find the source, if you want.

Firstly, I'm not sure what that has to do with my lack of sympathy. I'm not even in Europe, and even if I were, that would still be my opinion.

Software is not a material good. It is essentially licensed. You can't resell most software - just try putting a copy of Maya on eBay and see what happens.

There's a lot of debate to be had over whether games should qualify as material goods, but as of right now (in many places) they aren't protected under the same laws as either goods or as software. They are protected by media laws, if I understand correctly. Which are a fuzzy grey area undergoing a great deal of turmoil and transition.

But the laws are irrelevent. Game trading has been going on forever, it doesn't really require a judge's input. It's not like I'm agreeing with some status quo that requires refution.

You have places that make a ton of money trading games that they have no part of. The developers see zero dollars from traded games. Functionally speaking, whether a person pirates a game or buys it used is identical to the developer. It is a person playing their game without paying the developer for the privilage. Instead they pay Gamestop.

I don't agree with that scenario. You can disagree with my opinion, but I still have no sympathy for people who refuse to use Steam because they want to sell their games. That isn't going to change.

Edit:

Originally Posted by jtr7

We don't know that. A title is just words.

Oh, granted. If it turns out to look like a flop I'll pass it up without hesitation. I'm seeing some talk about third person and 'sneak modes' and if they pan out as true, I may very well just pass on it.

[Skaruts]

Originally Posted by JFSOCC

A European High court judged this to be false. They argued that just like people lend and give each other used books or Video tapes/Dvd's, so they should be able to do the same with Games. I'll find the source, if you want.

If a court argued with video-tapes as an example of what people do with their material goods, then they were using an illegal action to justify the case. Video-tapes have explicit messages stating that the buyer can't distribute, sell, borrow, broadcast, etc. by any means, and with rare exceptions for some of those actions.
What kind of court does that? I'd like to see that source, yes, please.

However, I do sympathise with people having the right to use their purchased product in any way, whatever its kind, except for public breadcasting, advertising, copying, and comercial use. My concept of comercial use begins after the person has sold his own original copy of the product, and starts selling copies of it with the intention of making profit from it, or broadcasting the product publicaly while gaining money with it. Thus, I sympathise with people wanting to sell their purchase, reason being irrelevant, since the developer/producer will never buy it back, and the seller will hardly ever profit. And most likely, the buyer would not buy it from the developer/producer anyway, except in more desperate cases.

Of course, my concepts are diferent from the law. But as I usualy say, the law is blind and stupid and square.

[JFSOCC]

Sure I'll look it up.
I don't see how companies can * about it though. Booksellers can't say "Nono, I Licensed the book to you, I didn't actually give you a hard copy to own. But Game makes can? That is wrong on so many levels.

[JFSOCC]

Ok found it, turns out it's not that relevant. nor was it the European high court. my bad.

still, here it is: http://www.zeropaid.com/news/89361/s...loaning-books/

[Skaruts]

Well, ebooks are on the same boat. And I agree with you.

I rly don't know much about physical paper books though. I only know they have less taxes included in the price (at least where I live).

[ToMegaTherion]

Admittedly I don't know the legality exactly, but jsut because things like "you cannot resell" are stated somewhere doesn't mean that you actually can't. You'll find a line in any EULA that says "and, oh yeah, anything in here that isn't legal in your country should be ignored."

But I don't really want to get involved in the legality of it at all. The idea that it is a "black market" and morally wrong seems like it needs a lot of justification. What is special morally about video games that makes them not resellable? I'm sure the manufacturers of any good would prefer that you can't resell it, since that would make them more money. But claiming that if I sell my chair it is a black market that harms carpenters would just be laughed at.

[Boose77]

The way im looking at it is that with a physical book and/or physical tape/dvd how many ppl can it really get around to, and how many ppl can have it in possesion at one time. the answer is only one person/family therefore lending/reselling/borrowing does not even come close to the magnitude of "sharing" digital media, where one copy of something can be shared to millions of people in less time it takes to finish the product.

yes i know you can make copies of tapes to tapes and so on, but books......doubtful or too long of time to actually copy it. even if a company lost a sale 1 to 1 for physical media, they would still make more money on it in theory than that of the loss of sales for digital media

im saying this weird, but i understand it, i will reword it if ppl dont see the point lol

[ToMegaTherion]

Originally Posted by Boose77

The way im looking at it is that with a physical book and/or physical tape/dvd how many ppl can it really get around to, and how many ppl can have it in possesion at one time. the answer is only one person/family therefore lending/reselling/borrowing does not even come close to the magnitude of "sharing" digital media, where one copy of something can be shared to millions of people in less time it takes to finish the product.

yes i know you can make copies of tapes to tapes and so on, but books......doubtful or too long of time to actually copy it. even if a company lost a sale 1 to 1 for physical media, they would still make more money on it in theory than that of the loss of sales for digital media

im saying this weird, but i understand it, i will reword it if ppl dont see the point lol

I agree that if you make a copy of a game that you can still use and then sell the DVD to someone else, that's rather evil.

[DarknessFalls]

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[thedosbox]

I predict a substantial number of people saying they won't buy Thief4 will end up doing just that - see this example: http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2009...tts-seriously/

[Boose77]

I am really hoping there is not DLC for this game that you can only get by preordering from a certain store, they can't do that to thief

i would think dev's would get a lot more money if they just released all dlc as pay for, as long as it isn't over priced. instead of this stupid u get this dlc from this store and u get this dlc from this store...

[DarknessFalls]

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