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#76
10-03-2009, 09:43 PM
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#77
10-03-2009, 10:00 PM
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There is also the hassle of drivers, updates etc.. as well as installation. These aren't massive issues for me personally (now), but when I departed from PC gaming it was at a time when technology was advancing too fast for my wallet to keep up and I was required to be updating components constantly (due to 1-2 mis-informed purchases etc..) and it's just not possible when you're 15-25 to be doing this, especially if computer technology is not your forte, luckily for me it was, but there are many people out there who enjoy playing computer games for whom it is not. There is also a complete lack of standard on PCs, which leads to alot of personal conflicts etc.. that take technical know how and savvy to troubleshoot and fix (not to mention time), which not only eats into time that you want to be spending playing your new game, but is all completely avoided with consoles, which is what makes them so attractive to people who are not competent in these areas. This is not to say that every PC gamer has to deal with these issues, but they are all a very real part of the realm of PC gaming some people just do not have the time or interest in technology to be dealing with them. That doesn't make them any less of a gamer or any less worthy of receiving Thief 4 for their preferred platform. The only problem that will occur if Thief 4 is designated for multi-platform development is if the team decides to start targeting the game at gamers who are not inherently interested in that style of gaming and start altering the game style to suit their needs, rather than those of Thief fans. If they stick to the plan and just develop the game as available for consoles then they are just maximising their potential target market without reducing the quality of the game. Thief being on consoles is not going to make it a worse game. The Thief development team changing their target market and altering the game accordingly is a different story.
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#78
10-04-2009, 01:05 AM
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There's also the way the environment is loaded as the player goes through it. The whole level might exist at once, or the unseen could be left out. Were the games mentioned running under 64 MBs of RAM? Games that came out months or years after TDS and were released for different platforms cannot be used to compare engines with in this particular debate. Halo 2 came out the same year and it doesn't have dynamic shadows, which I understood to be heavier on processing and memory. Halo 2 has large open areas, large barely-detailed building blocks, and not a lot of small interactive objects packed into smallish spaces. The games you listed came out years later, for systems with bigger memory, built with much advanced tech, so they can't even be argued against the Flesh Engine this way.
Last edited by jtr7; 10-04-2009 at 02:40 AM.
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#80
10-04-2009, 11:50 AM
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#81
10-04-2009, 04:05 PM
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#83
10-05-2009, 06:10 PM
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I'm completely objected to alot of the console hand holding that goes on today as I really feel it detracts from the enjoyment of the gaming experience and sense of accomplishment when you finish a gaming experience But the example you've given is a poor choice and, while the graphical indicator might be a bit more flamboyant that your tastes would like to endure, I am telling you that in such a situation where the player cannot directly aim at the target then you must mark the target for the player so they know when a target is locked and which specific target they are aiming for.
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#84
10-05-2009, 11:21 PM
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#86
10-06-2009, 05:44 AM
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 That's a terrible argument against 3rd person Thief. The only argument that holds any water against 3rd person is if it affects 1st person mechanics. This has no implication on 1st person at all so therefore cannot be an argument against 3rd person.Have you played many 3rd person games? Every 3rd person shooter I've ever played, if you have need to launch a projectile be it an arrow or a bullet or a rock or a can has an alternative aiming mode that either returns the camera to first person to aim your weapon directly or else moves the camera to an over the shoulder view to accomodate for the aiming process. The Assassin's Creed example is implemented because it is strictly a 3rd person game that has no shooting mechanics, yet there are ranged attacks (which are aimed automaticaly, which would be called hand holding) and huge numbers of people walking on the streets, with guards often patrolling in groups of about 3-4. The player needs to be aware which character they have targetted to allow them to initiate any sort of attack. It is not a 3rd person mechanic that would find it's way into Thief at all.
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#87
10-06-2009, 06:30 AM
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Thief just doesn't lend itself to 3rd person game play very good. It's not designed to be an action/ fighting/ platform type game. It is suppose to be an immersive, stealth based, first person sneaker. Yeah it's great to say, lets have both views, more options the better or say i don't care if it has 3rd person as long as 1st person doesn't get affected. Well the fact is this won't work with good results. TDS was negatively affected with the implementation of 3rd person. Seeing as 1st person was not desirable on the consoles back then and the devs were making a console game then i can see why they took a gamble on 3rd person. But it failed, thats not to say a similar approach on T4 wouldn't be better but it still will fail as well.
You can not build a 1st person game and then add 3rd person to it. You will have to build a 3rd person game and tack on a 1st person camera view to it, there's no way around this fact. The result will have most if not all of the shortcoming that TDS suffered from regarding this issue. Yes they could spend extra time developing a true 1st person mode with body awareness that will be separate from the 3rd person mode. The user could select the mode he wishes to play in at game start. But this will only rectify the movement issues. You will basically be playing a completely 3rd person designed game in 1st person view. All aspects of the game design will have to be built ground up for 3rd person. No matter how 1st person view is implemented it will not be a 1st person built game. Same thing goes for cross developing a game. The end result will be a console game, seeing how it makes more sense to develop for the lowest system. TDS is a console game and T4 will most likely be as well. But i can't see why it has to suffer being a 3rd person game again. 1st person games are now very successful on the new consoles, there's no point in ruining T4 with this. There's many games that are very acceptable in 3rd person, Tomb Raider, Overlord, Assassins Creed, etc... Thief just doesn't work good with it at all, and it's retarded to want T4 to be seriously hampered as a Thief game just to accommodate consolers wish to play in 3rd person. 1st person as well as 3rd person views are a players preference. But the final decision on what view a game should be designed around should go to what's best suited to that title. I can fully see why the Thief series is now a console game, it's money, i get it. But why does it have to turn into a 3rd person game that will harm the whole design and detract from the essence of Thief. A 1st person developed T4 will not only produce the best overall Thief experience but it will be way, way easier on the devs to build and allow them plenty of additional resources to dedicate on the game. Why doesn't the new console Thief fan base that TDS introduced not want the best possible T4 game there can be? T4 will already be compromised badly by being developed as a console game, why have it hampered any further? It makes no difference what preferred view someone has, T4 will be damaged from being developed as a 3rd person game.
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#88
10-06-2009, 06:39 AM
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#89
10-06-2009, 06:47 AM
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Much like alot of the l33t posts around here. Everyone is always talking about "But it will waste valuable time that can be better spent else where on things we already know will work" Some of the most un-imaginative fans I've ever come across reside on these forums.
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#90
10-06-2009, 06:57 AM
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How is Thief being on consoles not gonna make it a worse game? I can come up with many valid reasons why it would do just that. I can not however think of any way that it won't make it a worse game. Not only is it easy to list reasons why but it's easy to list tons of other game examples to back it up. Yes there are a few mult-plat games that are good, but even they are worse off from being developed for the consoles. Quote:
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#91
10-06-2009, 06:59 AM
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The entire world can go on and on about these type of things & the discussion would never end. Everyone has their favorite type of game & play style. Example... watching my kids play a game on the PC is funny compared to the controller they're used to with PS3 & XBOX.
Anyway... Multiplayer WILL work with THI4F if they did it right. Playing against each other & trying to kill each other (IMO) WILL NOT WORK with Thi4f because we can see each other in the shadows better than the guards can see us. Being able to hide from one another in the shadows would be a "must" & that's basically impossible. But co-op gameplay is possible & (IMO) they should come up with something along those lines. Simply make a rule for the map "don't kill anyone" & all the "run & gun" crap would be gone wouldn't it? Thief (IMO) would suck as a run & gun type game. We need to be able to sneak around & hide. Come on Eidos! Come up with something awesome! I know you can do it! 
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#92
10-06-2009, 07:08 AM
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#94
10-06-2009, 09:34 AM
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I can name even more adverse effects from console development such as longer development times revolving around building games for 3 systems and greater opportunity for bugs and other issues because of lack of focus/ resources on one platform. Not to mention the higher development costs from purchasing licenses for console, larger trained teams, etc... Theres really nothing good about cross development except more money in the publishers pockets. Overall game quality has suffered greatly. A lot of people don't realize the downward spiral gaming has been in. Theres no doubt in my mind that they would see it if there was any true groundbreaking pc only games coming out. Unfortunately there isn't, once again thanks to the advent of consoles. Pushing the tech boundaries have all but stopped. Crysis ratcheted up the capabilities of modern tech but it stopped there, now their developing a console engine. Crysis is 2 years old and it's sad to think that even in 2013 people are still gonna be hailing it as the game with the most groundbreaking tech available. Every multi-plat game has been hampered, even games that were released when the xbox360 had current hardware. All pc users get nowadays are consolized outdated ports. Don't believe it when anyone tells you there not ports, cross developed games are always a port from the lesser system. This was TDS's main problem and it will most likely be T4's as well. Every game thats been released in the last several years have been consolized horribly on the pc. Some games suffer less than others, normally more arcadey games suffer less by consolization. Just because some games sell really well doesn't mean they haven't been affected greatly by being console developed. Thief is just not designed to be a console oriented game. Also please don't make the assumption that i'm talking only 'bout graphics, because that's just a small part of it. I could go on all night with this, i haven't stated everything, but seriously this stuff is not some leet pc nerd blabbing, this stuff is facts. The proof is right there with almost every mult-plat game thats been released. It'd be great if you could give me 10 reasons why Thief being on consoles won't make it a worse game, capabilities of the publisher earning more money aside. Quote:
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#95
10-06-2009, 09:57 AM
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So true...the pursuit of excellence has been replaced with the pursuit of money, regardless of qualitative standards. The reasons against consoles are based in fact and not on preference, and have been explained on this forum numerous times.
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#96
10-06-2009, 10:25 AM
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If JTR didn't have over 2.5k posts though, I could probably actually find those dev blog quotes he posted (ARGH!) Quote:
I'm sorry, but pursuit of money has ALWAYS been the driving standard in nearly every industry. The very reason that games worried about qualitative standards in the beginning was that it meant MORE MONEY. Innovation, quality of play, graphics, etc- meant more money. Now, games have become too expensive, and unfortunately that means that they have to depend on money from investors now. Investors want security, and only see security in copying old ideas. Wallstreet is the very same reason that technology as a whole is actually many years behind where it could be. Research and development requires risk, and your innovation/invention might not turn a profit (even if it does do something beneficial) - and that doesn't work for investors who want money out of their investment. You can't even blame the consumer really - just because they enjoy the product they buy. So what if they've seen it before? It's a game, it's designed to entertain, and if it does that much, then most of them are content with that. You (and I) have higher standards than the average person, you just need to realize that. Start your own game company and dedicate it to the pursuit of excellence, then find investors who are willing to take RISK instead of just trying to turn a profit. Invest yourself in your business as well, and maybe get some help from the bank (which I hope to do some day). You can't blame consoles for the lack of developers "pursuing excellence". You need to blame investors who only look to make sure that the bottom dollar of their investment is in the black and not the red - who'd rather see a game make money than do something awesome or new. Until developers find new ways of getting money, or until there are enough investors with cash to spare that they don't mind risking losing some of their investment, things won't change. (console vs PC is an utterly craptacular argument, games are games no matter what medium they're made for - and making a game for the masses does not excuse making a piece of  on a disk)
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#97
10-06-2009, 11:14 AM
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The primary difference is in the developers attitude based on the need to create money to give shareholders a return on their investments. It has nothing to do with console computers. I've read all of these "reasons" why the game will be worse if it is released on a console and they are all based on speculation and biased opinions. Lightning SS practically covered them all and there is still not one thing that he mentioned that is a direct result of the game being developed for a console computer. They are all of a direct result of the evolution of gaming to mainstream medium. Blame it on consoles if you like, but that just shows ignorance towards what is actually happening. But a game being on a console is not bound to any of these limitations, so to say that Thief 4 is going to suffer because it is on a console is non-sensical. The only thing that will hamper Thief 4 is if the development team have resurfaced this title in order to bring it into the mainstream of gaming. If they have, well then...everyone suffers. If they haven't then it will be on consoles and it will be none the less of a game because of it because that particular version will be aimed at fans of Thief and stealth gaming who happen to own a console and the developers will have brought this title back to the world of gaming with the attitude of etching out another fantastic title in this series legacy. Apart from hardware limitations, which, frankly, is a minor issue with regards to current gen development, as current gen console tech has reached a level that can create practically any environment imaginable, there is no difference between consoles and PCs. An Xbox 360 is basically a PC anyway. Sure, using this tech advantage could push the envelope to make truely huge maps, but that doesn't make a difference on a game like Thief, especially when the majority of your PC l33ts only want single load out missions. There is not some magic factor inside a PC's workings that allow it to execute more fantastic styles of gameplay, which is, essentially, what makes a game great or not. The game being made strictly for PC does not automatically make it a better game. PC fanboys seem to miss this point alot. Last edited by oO_ShadowFox_Oo; 10-06-2009 at 11:23 AM.
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#98
10-06-2009, 12:23 PM
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#99
10-06-2009, 01:09 PM
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"So true...the pursuit of excellence has been replaced with the pursuit of money, regardless of qualitative standards." Meaning that in the electronic gaming business (context), where once was the pursuit of excellence (or the spirit of cutting edge development, obviously in conjunction with making money), has now been replaced in large measure with the pursuit of money making without the high standards being there. This has happened because a new, younger, casual gaming market was created with a new delivery system (consoles), which allowed the game developers to create technically sub-standard games that mommy or the unsophisticated would still buy regardless of the quality. The XBOX 360 can handle only DirectX 9. By the time T4 comes out, we will be in mid-cycle DirectX 11 development. This creates inherent limitations beyond just map size...and what of EAX 5?...they may now disregard it because the consoles do not use EAX extensions. Now we have to pray to the builder for T4 to be pure and be developed on the PC first and then port it over to the lesser and limited XBOX 360, rather than a more likely co-development which will use the console as the lowest common denomenator... 
Last edited by Vae; 10-06-2009 at 01:15 PM.
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#100
10-06-2009, 01:16 PM
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Really, I'd rather have the game look like the old ones as long as I still had all the content.
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