Vampires - Souls and Blood

[ChocolateRob]

OK I’m starting a thread in which to discuss the nature of vampires and their souls in Nosgoth. There seems to be several different viewpoints floating around in the forums here but I see three main aspects to it hence the title. I’ll start with my opinions then you can rip them to shreds or add your own.

First off there have been four distinct races of vampire in Nosgoth’s history -
1) The original race also called the Ancients. Blue skinned, winged beings with cloven hands and feet. They had powerful magic and a (presumably) normal human life cycle.
2) The cursed Ancients after the war (e.g. Janos). These vampires were afflicted with sterility, blood lust and immortality.
3) Humans turned into vampires (Vorador onwards). Presumably using a traditional blood method.
4) Kain’s descendants. These vampires are created through necromancy, pulling a human soul from the underworld and infusing it with vampiric energy (from the soul of their Sire).

The only exception to the rule is Kain himself as he was created through necromancy and the blood method. Mortanius raised his soul but used the flesh/blood of a vampire to pass on the curse.

Vampires are known to be vulnerable to water and sunlight but I don’t know if that is so for all four types mentioned above or just the last two. Was it a part of the Hylden curse? Were the Ancients always so vulnerable or only converted humans?

The way I see it the essence of the curse has always been in the soul. As Janos says
“They imprisoned our souls in this flesh.”
The soul (if anywhere) resides in the blood. All vampires feed on blood to maintain their bodies but they are also feeding on the soul maintaining their immortality and strength as well. This is why when they become wraiths they feed only on souls - in the words of the Elder God
“Your blood thirst is replaced by a deeper need. You have become a devourer of souls.”
They no longer have bodies to maintain, only their souls.

The ancients used blood to pass on their essence but this makes for weaker vampires, they do not age but they are killed more easily. Kain’s descendants have a stronger tie with their souls, due to this their souls must be forced from their bodies to kill them but even so they can still be resurrected easily. It was the Hylden who first learned to become immortal.
“They refused to submit to the wheel of fate.”
The vampires found this to be abhorrent and started the holy war. This is why they created the pillar of death, to regulate this aspect of magic. The Hylden were the masters of this magic, using it to curse the ancients. The vampires only learned enough to pass the curse on using their own blood. The necromancy used by Kain is a truer form of this magic which is why his vampires are stronger (except for his corruption anyway.)

A soul itself is energy containing the essence of whom and what a being is. Kain’s soul is never missing pieces from his method of siring vamps. Like a campfire you can take some out to start another without damaging the original, the new fires are independent but can still be returned to the original. When Kain breathes a portion of his soul into another it is not like he is ripping off his arm, he is expending some energy which can be replaced when he feeds.

If anyone can think of other aspects of souls to discuss let me know and I will also try to defend my wild opinions more clearly.

[Guardian of Spirit]

I agree with you about the blood part of your theory but not with the soul part... I think only the dead vampires (SR1 era) prisoners in the spectral realm had the ability to absorb the souls of their foes... the ancient vampire guardians, deranged by the EG had this strange ability due to their permanation (i can't recall the right word right now so beg pardon) in the spectral realm...I guess normal vampires didn't even know the existance of such a place and so they fed only upon blood...

[ChocolateRob]

The guardians are mentally linked to their pillars but to function properly and keep the binding in place the pillars need to be linked to vampires (according to Janos). As it is a mental link then it must be a link to the vampire’s souls that keeps them powered (otherwise the pillars would need some kind of physical blood sacrifice.) When the original vampires were cursed they needed to continue their race through a new method. The soul is still integral to the link so even though they are using a (traditional) blood method it must also alter the soul as well.
When Kain learned to make vampires his method did not involve him physically altering the blood blood, only the soul. Presumably altering the soul affected the blood anyway meaning the two are closely linked. This created a different kind of vampire with a more deeply rooted soul. These vampires are physically more resilient and can adapt to be soul feeders.
All of this suggests a close connection between the blood and the soul in each vampire race. I suggest therefore that the soul resides in the blood. The two methods of creating a vampire clearly differ and create slightly different types of vampire but to the pillars they are still both vampires.

To recap - the Pillars are mentally linked to the vampires therefore it is the soul that defines a vampire not the blood. Blood and soul are linked.

I admit I am using general vampire culture to affect my opinions of vampires in Nosgoth.
There are generally two types of Vampire in popular culture
1) Action movie vampires - These are generally humans with a vampire virus of some kind e.g. Blade, Ultraviolet or Underworld. Humans with general vampiric attributes, more of a human sub-culture. (science affliction)
2) Horror movie vampires - These are more traditional ‘cursed’ creatures e.g. Dracula, Nosferatu or buffyverse (and dare I say it -Duckula). These have a supernatural/magical cause or curse.
Nosgoth vampires would fall into the second variety.

In season 5 of Buffy Xander asks why Dawn is to be killed in a blood letting ceremony? to which Spike says “because blood is life”. To me that suggests that the soul resides in the blood as well. Dracula’s curse is clearly a curse of the soul as he renounces god and sells his soul to Satan. I’ve also just read a trilogy by Maria V Snyder were the soul is described as residing in the blood, (it is not a vampire story but) in it magicians add to their power by a ritual where they trap a victims soul in their body by mixing blood from the victims heart with tattoo ink.
It is things like this that cause me to associate blood and soul as one in any supernatural vampire story.
It may not be official but it does fit.

[Guardian of Spirit]

Well, guess you're right.... a Soul is strictly intertwined with its body, its fisical form... sould & body mix in a single entity until the body dies and the soul is realeased.... blood is the vital lymph, without it the body dies and the soul cannot hold on the material world anymore... so, if body and soul are strictly connected, blood is their link.... blood is the essence of the body and so of the soul in material things... a little fragment of soul is in every cell of our body including blood.... that's why one can explain why blood was used in arcaic rituals.... then, in an indirect way, when a vampire fed on blood he fed on soul too... If this was what you meant then I agree....

[ChocolateRob]

That's exactly what I mean. Well put.

[Guardian of Spirit]

=P at least we agree in this part! Other theories?? maybe about the Ancients?? (I'm a big fan of them!=P)

[ChocolateRob]

Plenty more theories to follow, though nothing specifically about the ancients, how about these?

1) In SR2 we learn that Raziel has characteristics similar to the ancients (Blue skin and wings) and in Defiance we learn that he also resembles the hylden (glowing eyes, flaming sword). It is never explained why he is like this or where his own strange abilities come from. You can simply say ‘Destiny’ or ‘Prophecy’ but those are not really an explanation.

I think that the simplest explanation would be that the human Raziel was the result of a blasphemous union between an ancient and a hylden, merged into human bloodlines. Perhaps the Seer is his great, great grandma, she is certainly unique among the hylden in that she seems to harbour no hatred to the vampires. (I know this is just supposition but it is the simplest possibility.)
This dual heritage ‘could’ also be an explanation for his unique powers, the hylden and vampire curses mixing together. The hylden banishment and vampiric connection to the pillars giving him an ability to cross dimensions (and the hylden’s attempts to defy the wheel of fate being realised in his indestructibility). As I stated at the start of this thread both the hylden and vampires seem to have a soul devouring ability (for the vampires this is through drinking blood and the hylden “draining of energy”), once Raziel loses his body he no longer needs blood only souls.

2) What exactly causes the Soul Reaver paradox? The only way to alter the timeline is for two incarnations of the Soul Reaver sword to meet in time. It does not work for any other object and it has to be two incarnations of the Wraith Blade (this includes the WB trapped in the corporeal Reaver but not the Blood Reaver without the WB or Raziel before he enters the Reaver). The two blades do not have to be fighting each other, merely in close proximity.

a) Kain tells Raziel that as he is the only creature not bound to the wheel of fate he is the only one capable of making a free choice. If Kain is correct in this assessment then Raziel does not necessarily need the Reaver Paradox to change time. The problem with this is that Raziel never has the opportunity to make an informed choice, his quest is much shorter than Kain’s as he is constantly harried from one situation to the next, unaware of what is destined to happen (unlike Kain). This is how Moebius manipulates Raziel into doing what he (Moebius) wants.
b) The reason why the Soul Reaver has the ability to alter time is not just because of Raziel's free will trapped in it but because its very existence is a paradox all of its own. The Reaver was never made to devour souls but paradoxically it creates itself by using a future version of itself to draw in Raziel‘s soul. If this did not happen then the future self would not exist to be able to create it but it does exist therefore it does happen. Normal rules of time are ‘Cause’ then ‘Effect’ but this paradox changes the rules to the Effect being the Cause (Much like Terminators existing by being reverse engineered from one that has travelled back through time.)
When two incarnations of the blade meet together the paradox increases further and then when you also factor in Raziel’s supposed free will (trapped in the blade) you end up with a combination of two paradoxes multiplied by two sources of free will. This Super-Paradox is what gives you a force powerful enough to de-rail history itself.

(For another good example of a paradox where an Effect becomes its own Cause I recommend reading Dragonflight by Anne McCaffrey, this deals with time travelling dragons instead of vampires.)

[Guardian of Spirit]

Amazing theories!! I have to say you're once more right about Raziel... I usually try not to think too much about time paradoxes... I end up only having incredibles head aches!! lol! about his free will I agree... he was not able to use it because of all the circumstances that forced him to flee from a danger to another... except in the spirit forge when he understand finally who he is...
Soon I'll expose my theories.... just give me time to re-order my ideas without end up in head aches!! lol!

[The Hylden]

Wow, this will be long...

ChocolateRob:

1)The original race also called the Ancients. Blue skinned, winged beings with cloven hands and feet. They had powerful magic and a (presumably) normal human life cycle.

It doesn't have to be human-length, but they were born, aged, died.

2)The cursed Ancients after the war (e.g. Janos). These vampires were afflicted with sterility, blood lust and immortality.

Blood thirst. Blood Lust sounds so …

Vampires are known to be vulnerable to water and sunlight but I don’t know if that is so for all four types mentioned above or just the last two. Was it a part of the Hylden curse? Were the Ancients always so vulnerable or only converted humans?

I would think that it's universal, but that's only opinion. It's never shown. Kain, being made by Janos' heart, was only weakened, originally, by sunlight, but not hurt by it. His offspring were weakened, presumably, as well, but not really hurt by it. (though Rahab would develop a total fatal weakness to sunlight over time), but their offspring, in turn, were fatally weak to total sunlight exposure. Thus, Kain ordered the raising of those giant smokestacks that diffused the sun.

The way I see it the essence of the curse has always been in the soul. As Janos says
“They imprisoned our souls in this flesh.”

Well, if the body cannot die, the soul cannot leave it. It simply could mean that their bodies are made to never age or die, thus the soul is imprisoned within the confines of the body, and this could have nothing to do with cursing their souls at all. On the contrary, as long as the heart of Janos still beat, his body remained alive, and his soul was tethered to the body this way.

The soul (if anywhere) resides in the blood. All vampires feed on blood to maintain their bodies but they are also feeding on the soul maintaining their immortality and strength as well. This is why when they become wraiths they feed only on souls - in the words of the Elder God
“Your blood thirst is replaced by a deeper need. You have become a devourer of souls.”
They no longer have bodies to maintain, only their souls.

I don't buy into this. The blood being where the soul resides? No, it just seems to be that the soul crosses into the physical, material world within the body of a living being. Raziel, returned as a Wraith, and the Hylden later that used corpses, are able to raise them as simple shells for their souls. So, perhaps not even living flesh, but organic material emitting ethereal gases. Raziel first willed matter to form organic material from the substances around him, later dead corpses. There was no blood in either method used. Blood, alone, as the only vessel the soul resides in within the body – no, that doesn't hold up to me. As far as the Elder God, his statement actually makes a total distinction between the two. If the blood thirst has been replaced by a deeper need for this other source of energy, then the two being intertwined seems less likely...

It was the Hylden who first learned to become immortal.
“They refused to submit to the wheel of fate.”

The first statement, yours, is not concluded by the second. We have no idea if the Hylden were immortal before they were banished to the Demon Realm. While I do think it's possible, there's also evidence against it. The Hylden Lord in BO2 states the Demon Realm insured his race's mortality, which is why they've been around these millenia going mad within it, but that could certainly be a distinction of, this realm insured our immortality, not letting us die like when we were back in good ol' Nosgoth... And not submitting to the Wheel of Fate is a statement by Janos, to who, like all the ancients, the Wheel of Fate is their belief system. They refused to submit then to their beliefs and their God. That's all it could mean, not literally that they could refuse to die...

The vampires found this to be abhorrent and started the holy war. This is why they created the pillar of death, to regulate this aspect of magic.

Wow, that's a leap of logic right there. The Pillar of Death, as in the Pillar of States and Time, and Energy, etc., are all elements of the world. Putting it above the others as the reason it was included specifically was because the Hylden could refuse death is first off negating the reasoning for the other Pillars – oh, they were just something to fill the bill – and not making much sense at all, given the fact this Pillar was NOT used to bring about the Hylden Race's passage into the Wheel of Fate through their natural deaths, but used as a whole with the other Pillars to simply ban them to a realm, ironically again, that INSURES the Hylden will remain immortal. Seams totally like a waste of a Pillar, to me.


Guardian of Spirit:

the ancient vampire guardians, deranged by the EG had this strange ability due to their permanation (i can't recall the right word right now so beg pardon) in the spectral realm...I guess normal vampires didn't even know the existance of such a place and so they fed only upon blood...

The Ancient Guardians did NOT have the ability to absorb, or feed on, souls. They attack Raziel with various powers, but they never, ever feed on Raziel. Normal vampires fed on blood because that's what they're cursed to feed on to sustain their bodies, of which their souls are imprisoned. They couldn't go into Spectral if they wanted to. They're immortal, in the Material Plane, cut off from that realm.

ChocolateRob:

The guardians are mentally linked to their pillars

Where are you getting this from? The only one “linked” still to the Pillars is Kain, simply because, as Balance Guardian, his soul is his binding item. All other Guardians have various physical items that were their binding items; once returned to the Pillars, a new Guardian is born and chosen, and there's no reason to believe any link remains with the soul of the passed Guardian... For the Ancient original Guardians, however, this may be different. The only thing they seem to be linked to in the game, however, are the respective Spirit Vessels in the Citadel, in the section where their bodies are entombed.

As it is a mental link then it must be a link to the vampire’s souls that keeps them powered

Actually, the Pillars are channeling the power of the land. It should then be the power within the land of Nosgoth that keeps the Pillars “empowered.” It's when the balance of this power is off that we have the Pillars' destruction, Nosgoth to follow.

note: please don't use existing vampire media, especially Buffy and Angel, to work with the logic of Nosgoth For your own good and the good of the minds of the readers reading this thread...

1)In SR2 we learn that Raziel has characteristics similar to the ancients (Blue skin and wings) and in Defiance we learn that he also resembles the hylden (glowing eyes, flaming sword). It is never explained why he is like this or where his own strange abilities come from. You can simply say ‘Destiny’ or ‘Prophecy’ but those are not really an explanation.

I think that the simplest explanation would be that the human Raziel was the result of a blasphemous union between an ancient and a hylden, merged into human bloodlines. Perhaps the Seer is his great, great grandma, she is certainly unique among the hylden in that she seems to harbour no hatred to the vampires. (I know this is just supposition but it is the simplest possibility.)
This dual heritage ‘could’ also be an explanation for his unique powers, the hylden and vampire curses mixing together. The hylden banishment and vampiric connection to the pillars giving him an ability to cross dimensions (and the hylden’s attempts to defy the wheel of fate being realised in his indestructibility). As I stated at the start of this thread both the hylden and vampires seem to have a soul devouring ability (for the vampires this is through drinking blood and the hylden “draining of energy”), once Raziel loses his body he no longer needs blood only souls.

That is completely NOT the simplest explanation... In fact, I don't see what sense that makes at all. Human Raziel was human, not a union, let's not muddle Raziel's destiny any more than it already is, please.

Here's a much, much simpler explanation...

Raziel has cloven hands and feat because of his sire, Kain, who evolved them first, as do his brethren. He doesn't really have blue “skin” as his skin and most of his flesh, even down to his bone in lots of spots, was all burned away in the Abyss... His bone and muscle left (even his hair!) having a blue hue is simply due to the fact that, in Spectral, where Raziel first awoke, EVERYTHING has a blue, or blue-green/blue-violet, hue to it. Raziel calls it “The endless twilight of the Underworld.” It's the reason why Raziel looks blueish. Raziel is a physical manifestation of what he thinks he looks like, Amy Hennig.

Why Raziel has “flaming” eyes: His eyes also were burnt away, casualties of his horrible melting in the Abyss. What you are seeing is his soul's energy leaking through, just like what you see of the Hylden's glowing green eyes are their soul's energy. You will note that Raziel has white, or bluish energy, while the Hylden have a decided green to them. In the Hylden murals, before they were cursed, back in BO2, the Hylden had actual eyes. This was before they were banished and, as the Hylden Lord states, became a “warped parody of [their] former beauty.” He's very much correct, as they looks pretty much like little gremlin corpses now, no matter if they are in others' corpses, or their own bodies.

Why Raziel has a “flaming sword:” It's his own Wraith Blade self... This is not a Hylden natural trait, simply what the prophecy saw, two potential outcomes of beings, which were one, and the Ancients decided that one had to be a Hylden with those flaming eyes, and oh look, that looks like a flaming sword... Flaming eyes and sword are NOT natural Hylden characteristics, and the reason for Raziel having all of these “features” are quite explained, so I am not sure why this total stretch of logic in a hybrid would ever be needed. The path of least resistance is already here, and makes perfect sense.


The paradox one I don't fully agree with, but not enough is known of a scenario other than what we've seen to argue for, or against it.

[ChocolateRob]

Wow, that was long. Being a basically lazy person I'm not going to argue every point. I'll just say that these were ideas I had that made sense to me. I'm just throwing them out there to see how they fit with others.
But I will admit that it is a weakness of mine to use ideas from outside media to influence my thoughts on certain subjects. (I do feel particular shame for using Buffy logic.) It would not be a good habit to get into if I were a scientist but theorising ideas for interpreting good stories I'll get away with. I tend to come up with ideas with little proof, only circumstantial evidence and hopefully no massive obstacles. I guess I'd make a lousy cop too; luckily I'm just a chocolatier.
I apologise if anyone gets the impression I am saying any of my theories are conclusively true, they are clearly just ideas and guesses. I will keep throwing them out here and there though.

1) Born, aged and died is all I meant by normal human life cycle (I said cycle not span).
2) Blood lust also a grammatical slip. (Bit of a petty point there, is it for implying you were a butcher or hangman . I was just wondering whether the term hylden was chosen as the name of the race by the game creaters in the real world or by the vampires as an insult [if that makes sense], I doubt the fact that the meaning of the word is an insult is just a coincidence)
3) As you say Raziel is a wraith. Blood is irrelevant to him, whether he is in the spectral or material realm his body is more of a memory or a representation of his psyche than a living system. His actual body was probably completely dissolved, it is (also probably) his trauma that gives him a ravaged look.
I also had the idea that if it only takes an act of will to change a rotting body vessel to his usual appearance it would just take a stronger act of will to look more like his previous vampire form. This could maybe have happened had he thought of it but spending a few hundred years dissolving in acid is likely to linger in your thoughts. (Oops, more leaps in logic there.)
4) Depends on your translation of 'deeper' need. a) taking the core element and losing the rest (wheat from the chaff) or b) replacing every element with another more important one.
The first works better for me.
5) The pillars were all chosen for good reasons, doesn't mean I can't guess at some of those reasons though. I read somewhere that the pillars were raised to regulate and protect different elements of the natural world from misuse, this could include any hylden defiance of their Gods laws on life and death.
6) I see a mental link with Pillars and Guardians because one went guardian went crazy, sent the rest crazy and the pillars immediately corrupted.
7) I did not say that human Raziel wandered around with stumpy wings and a bony face, I just meant that in his distant ancestry there may have been a bit of hylden and ancient mixed in. He is a unique creature as a wraith with suggestions of both adversary races. All the listed reasons for this seem very coincidental in one creature especially as Raziel brings these features up so prominently himself when he notices them.
8) OK saying the hylden made themselves immortal is quite a stretch from the evidence provided, it is just how I translated the phrase "they refused to submit to the wheel."
(Which is what you said, I'm just getting defensive.)
9) The hylden are slowly breaking through due to the pillars being in human hands rather than vampire so clearly the guardians affect the strength of the pillars as much as the land itself does. I fact we see the guardians affect the pillars a lot more than the land affecting the pillars.
10) Back to the Buffy thing, I'm not saying that because something may apply in one universe it must apply in another. I'm just saying that ideas thought of for one will often influence the creation of another. People tend to think in memes so fictional creatures are always influenced by other similar ones. Hence categorising them as I did into action movie vamps or horror movie vamps (still a bit woolly, I mean more hammer horror than slasher flick).

Oops, I did argue more than I intended. So is there anything I've said that you did agree with? It's nice to here about them too.

Here's one more controversial idea for you all.
To save Nosgoth the pillars need to be negated rather than restored. They were created as a weapon in an unjust war. By linking the factors controlled by the pillars to living beings these factors have been put in jeopardy. It is easier to attack a guardian of time than to attack time itself. Destroying the pillars destroys the land. A way needs to be found to negate their influence (let the land look after itself, just try not to litter).
The most extreme way would be to induce a massive fatal paradox that expels the vampire - hylden war from history taking the EG too. (Of course a paradox of this magnitude could just as easily end the world altogether, certainly we won't find it as interesting anymore so let's leave it as a last resort).

[Raziel'sRevenge]

Originally Posted by ChocolateRob

1) Born, aged and died is all I meant by normal human life cycle (I said cycle not span).

I have to say guys this is a pretty small point. They were mortal. They were turned immortal by the hylden as part of their curse. That's the important part.

2) Blood lust also a grammatical slip. (Bit of a petty point there, is it for implying you were a butcher or hangman . I was just wondering whether the term hylden was chosen as the name of the race by the game creaters in the real world or by the vampires as an insult [if that makes sense], I doubt the fact that the meaning of the word is an insult is just a coincidence)

Again, small point. Doesn't matter.

3) As you say Raziel is a wraith. Blood is irrelevant to him, whether he is in the spectral or material realm his body is more of a memory or a representation of his psyche than a living system. His actual body was probably completely dissolved, it is (also probably) his trauma that gives him a ravaged look.
I also had the idea that if it only takes an act of will to change a rotting body vessel to is usual appearance it would just take a stronger act of will to look more like his previous vampire form. This could maybe have happened had he thought of it but spending a few hundred years dissolving in acid is likely to linger in your thoughts. (Oops, more leaps in logic there.)

I have wondered in the past why Raziel keeps his appearance. He wills himself into creation in the physical realm, and while I know that he's become rather used to his unique look I'd think that he could get a hang of changing just how he willed himself to be. But who cares? That's how the games were designed, I don't need more explanation. I don't focus on small parts of plot unless they have some real meaning.

4) Depends on your translation of 'deeper' need. a) taking the core element and losing the rest (wheat from the chaff) or b) replacing every element with another more important one.
The first works better for me.

Agreed.

5) The pillars were all chosen for good reasons, doesn't mean I can't guess at some of those reasons though. I read somewhere that the pillars were raised to regulate and protect different elements of the natural world from misuse, this could include any hylden defiance of their Gods laws on life and death.

The pillars were chosen to represent the different aspects of nature.

6) I see a mental link with Pillars and Guardians because one went guardian went crazy, sent the rest crazy and the pillars immediately corrupted.

I agree with the mental link part, but the reason that all of the guardians went insane is because of Nupraptor's madness. His love was killed, and he (being the guardian of mind) went insane, which then spread through all the guardians. It helped that the guardian of balance was the one who was killed.

7) I did not say that human Raziel wandered around with stumpy wings and a bony face, I just meant that in his distant ancestry there may have been a bit of hylden and ancient mixed in. He is a unique creature as a wraith with suggestions of both adversary races. All the listed reasons for this seem very coincidental in one creature especially as Raziel brings these features up so prominently himself when he notices them.

Nope, sorry. Raziel is 100% human. We don't even know if vampires/hylden/humans can interbreed. We all know that vampires can pass the curse/gift to humans, and that the hylden were able to curse the vampires, but I'm not sure exactly what the nature of their curse is.

8) OK saying the hylden made themselves immortal is quite a stretch from the evidence provided, it is just how I translated the phrase "they refused to submit to the wheel."
(Which is what you said, I'm just getting defensive.)

Actually that's exactly what I took from it, although I suppose any sort of rejection of their religion could do it.

9) The hylden are slowly breaking through due to the pillars being in human hands rather than vampire so clearly the guardians affect the strength of the pillars as much as the land itself does. I fact we see the guardians affect the pillars a lot more than the land affecting the pillars.

The pillars are indeed worse off in human hands, the hylden take advantage of this to break them eventually. The pillars are attached to the health of the land, which would explain the looks of things in Soul Reaver 1. The pillars are also the weapon created to seal the hylden in the demon dimension, but Kain stopped that little problem by tossing in the Nexus Stone, thus keeping the Hylden trapped despite the lack of pillars, yet the land still decays.

10) Back to the Buffy thing, I'm not saying that because something may apply in one universe it must apply in another. I'm just saying that ideas thought of for one will often influence the creation of another. People tend to think in memes so fictional creatures are always influenced by other similar ones. Hence categorising them as I did into action movie vamps or horror movie vamps (still a bit woolly, I mean more hammer horror than slasher flick).

I believe it can be universally agreed that no matter what medium you're talking about, similar works will influence the one being created from "scratch". This said, we cannot judge Legacy of Kain by other vampire series. Aside from the insult given to Legacy of Kain, it's also going to lead to faults. Most series involving vampires don't involve time travel. Most vampires are seen as bloodthirsty and immortal, not so with the ancients. Comparisons cannot be made.

[Guardian of Spirit]

I agree with Raziel'sRevenge... Some details of the game can't really be explained... they are elements of the game not of the plot... (Raziel's appearence= the modelers couldn't get mad modeling a lot of Raziel's physical forms just to make more sense!!)
And for the rest... LoK vampires are different from every vampires we were ever used to know...(I like better this way!!)

[Linikratyo]

Originally Posted by Guardian of Spirit

And for the rest... LoK vampires are different from every vampires we were ever used to know...(I like better this way!!)

Totally agree!

[TheSquid]

I think the heart is the key to solving some of this, and not the blood.
After all, every species has blood, not just vamps, and it's possible vampire blood isn't all that special, considering how it dries up on them so fast and they're always needing to replace it with human blood---which does contain something special: a living essence...

[this is long so I'll use topic headers for paragraphs:]

HOW THE HEART FUNCTIONS IN VAMPS:
The heartbeat is the measure of mortality. That's why it matters.
As long as the pulse circulates and the heart beats, the mortal lives.
Then the curse comes along and changes that. Now immortal, their hearts no longer mete out their lifespans like ours do. "Immortal" as in not truly alive, but frozen in time forever, cut off from the purifying cycle of death and rebirth, as if in freeze-frame. And their hearts are at least semi-frozen too.
Now in their toxic state the blood isn't being re-circulated by the heart in a healthy way anymore, so they need constant transfusions.
So I'm tempted to say their hearts (or kidneys ) aren't working anymore.
But they are! Just differently.
We see in SR how if the heart of even a necrovampire is staked, this interrupts some vital process and the vampire ceases to function. We see in the SR2 Air Forge that vampires recognized this mystery and were experimenting with heart removal. --> Has it occurred to anyone that the Heart of Darkness may have been the fruit of their labors??? (~"Behold, his heart--it still beats!" ---Sarafan Raziel, shocked as if he hadn't seen that kind of behavior from a vamp before. And: ~"What is it that sustained you all these years, Janos, after all the other ancients failed?" "I don't know. ....My guardianship of the reaver, perhaps?") --> Or maybe it was the HoD, I'm thinking.

So anyway it seems the vampire heart still does have a function, but it may not function quite like ours do, pulsing blood round-and-round the body to sustain life.
Whatever their hearts do, I believe they're able to do it.....
Just once for each new batch of blood. (Or for a limited time only).
Meaning that their heart is removing SOMETHING from the blood of the person they just drank--like the living essence--stolen from living veins into dead-ish ones and used to keep the vampire immortal one more day by staving off true death one blood dose at a time.

TURNING OF HUMANS EXPLAINED:
But once taken in, the blood joins with their cursed essence. The hylden made sure that the curse would stick to vampires no matter what they did to try and shake free. Well, the vampires now use this to their advantage, because it lets them trick fate in a cool way:
By infecting some poor mortal with the curse through blood transfer, they also succeed in infecting the mortal with the vampiric essence so closely bound to the curse. For though they were denied reproduction, the curse was not! So by leading with the curse they are able to cheat the hylden intent and gain a means of repopulating their numbers.

WEAKNESSES EXPLAINED:
But these creations, these essence transfer vampires, aren't living beings but unnatural things willed into being through dark rites. Since they are abominations perpetrated against the natural order, the very things which sustain life are like acid to vampires. Water and sunlight. Interesting isn't it how when a vampire named Raziel finally managed to power through the water barrier, he found something waiting on the other side. Something deeply connected with the living condition, with the life cycle vampires are barred from. It turns out water and sunlight were two of the bars. That's why I think when vampires gain new immunity to their weaknesses like Kain in Blood Omen, that's like them making progress against the curse. Like it's an age-old arm wrestling match against a disease their dark evolution is trying to beat back.

NECROS:
So it becomes easy to explain why Necros are tougher to kill and more rooted to their souls---they're simply even further removed from nature, and since death is part of nature they're further removed from suffering it.

[Linikratyo]

very interesting...

[Guardian of Spirit]

I agree, these theories are very intriguing... and i tried to explain the weakness theory too on a thread about the vampires but no-one even listen to me... it was very near to yours...
being expelled from life itself, everything that is NECESSARY to live is dangerous, even mortal for them... light is vital, without it the clorophillian process can't happen and so all the oxigen exchanges, necessary to breathe and so live; water, the same: our biological processes within our body without water can't happen and our body dies in 3 days...
About the freezing of vampires' bodies, well I didn't thought about it much, but reading now what the squid wrote, I have to say his logic is right...at least, the one who has more sense till now for me...
And for the heart theory... i never thought about it too, so this logic is entirely new for me...but it sounds good!!

[ChocolateRob]

I turn my attention away for a few days then I discover lots of interesting new ideas and explanations have been added, thanks guys. I hadn't thought of the weaknesses as the curse simply turning them against nature, I like it.
The heart and blood are so closely linked to one another it is near impossible to say which is most relevant. Perhaps I could argue that the heart is the binding link between the body and soul, that would fit both our ideas I think (but as it has only just occurred to me I won't bother endorsing it whole-heartedly however).

I completely agree that Nosgoth is a unique creation with great depth and originality. I was not intending to say that it is comparable to Sunnydale in any way, I was just mentioning that particular line said by Spike as an example of general vampire lore that could be relevant. I only meant to give an example of things that may have influenced my thinking, I should have seen the fuss it would cause and I hereby pledge to never mention it again. Nosgoth vamps are clearly superior - Everybody happy.
Oh and Guardian of Spirit, I do listen to you but I'm quite new here so I have a lot of catching up to do, thanks for being the first (second, third and fourth) to reply to this thread.