GLYPH POWER & Other Mystical Symbols - General Discussion

[Secondary]

i searched through all 11 pages of new and old threads and i was surprised i didnt find any with this question (please, yell at me if im wrong)

since Garrett is now the only keeper, is there a possibility that he will have all the glyph powers the keepers used to have (assuming the final glyph didnt just destroy all glyphs period)

a freind just pointed out that EM might use glyphs to add some features to Thief that are common in other stealth games like Splinter Cell and Metal Gear. he said that glyph powers would be a good excuse to implement night vision (i hope not) thermal vision and things like that.

do you think this is possible, or even desireable?

[Davehall380]

Im not sure myself, but from what ive read the general consensus is that all the glyphs were destroyed at the end of Thief 3. Their is potential for their reappearance within the next game. From what I remember, its hard to utilise the power of the glyphs. I think that adding nightvision and other elements into Thief under the guise of 'well its a glyph power, so that explains it' wouldnt go down with many fans

[jtr7]

I don't want the Glyph magic back in a new game if it's a proper sequel within Garrett's lifetime. The magic may be there, but tapping into it with Glyphs is gone "forever". It may be that all the magic we've ever seen is the same well-spring of magic that all use, but no more Glyphs as the means.

[Ikana]

Glyph magic wouldn't make sense considering Thief 4 would be a sequel to the 3rd game..

[jtr7]

That's what I believe. Bringing it back is cheap writing and an easy out. Like I said, there's so much magic in that world, so many other practitioners of many unique types, and the ability to see into the future is not uncommon. No loss. It would be like losing a powerful friend, and having no choice but to move forward. Instant story that writes itself.

[Herr_Garrett]

http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1847667

For some reason the forum tries to start from the second page of the thread, but you should begin, as Blake put it, with the beginning.

[jtr7]

Heh heh.


Whatever wiped out all Glyphs forever also made the Glyphs as Glyphs inaccessible to Keepers. If it's really gone, as the ancient Keepers designed the Final Glyph to do, then of course Keepers cannot access it. If it is NOT gone, the Keepers are still incapable of accessing it, so it would've had to have affected the Keepers personally. Gamall, the queen of Glyphs, a practitioner for centuries, who knew of Glyphs no one else did, and could do things with the Glyphs no one had fathomed possible, was rendered incapable of making them anymore.

"Last", "Final", "Forever"...

[Hamadriyad]

I don't want glyphs back!
But I really wonder, who created the glyphs at the very beginning? And who wrote the Keeper Prophicies? Who is that prophet?

[Davehall380]

In my opinion the Glyphs in TDS seemed to give an insight into the magic behind the Thief Universe. We have seen examples of ghosts, hammers, pagans, mages etc using magic before, but never anything as raw and binding and glyphs. Im convinced that they havnt gone, but the means of access have gone. Id champion the idea that now these Glyphs have gone, it destroys the balance intended by the keepers (after all did they forsee the destruction of their order?). They were always capable of hinting and helping Garrett against the various factions (prophecy), but now they have gone who knows what will happen to the balance between the factions. Do the mages assert themselves, how the pagans and hammers react? What do the populace of the city feel like etc etc

[Platinumoxicity]

The imbalance that Constantine and his powers caused in T1, born from the one true keeper's actions, removed to bring back balance. Balance of one led to...

...The imbalance that Karras and his influence caused in T2, born from the diminished influence of the pagans, removed to bring back balance. Balance of another led to...

...The imbalance that the Keepers and their influence caused in TDS, born from corruption inside the order, removed to bring back balance. Removal of the root cause of all (The creators of the one true keeper that caused the first imbalance) End of the line.

The keepers are history. They are the fourth "dead character" same as Constantine, Karras and Viktoria. Bringing them back in any form will break the continuity. The glyph powers are gone. The keepers that created the chain reaction that led from Garrett's greed to Constantine's betrayal, from Constantine's death to Karras' genocide, from Garrett's intervention to the death of Karras and Viktoria, from Gamall's corruption to Garrett's framing, from the keepers' ignorange to their self-destruction, are finally gone. The 3 games are 1 story, and the ultimate enemy that had to be destroyed, was the starting point of it all.

The fourth game will have a new nemesis, it's just not keepers anymore. Hopefully not even the pagans or the Hammerites. Something new.

[Davehall380]

I understand the linkage between the three games, and the idea of balance. Furthermore, I would like to see a new nemesis and a new storyline. However, we need to be careful as to how far we go in seperating Thief 4 from the original storyline. So far, Thief 1,2 and 3 have been a continual progression centred around our favourite protagonist. So whilst these games charted the balance between the factions, Garrett was always some how tasked with fixing it. Now that the Keepers are gone, we shouldnt assume that the balance between the factions and the link to Garrett is gone. Before, we always had one side taking precedence (Pagan, Hammer, Keeper). What happens to all three factions now? By leaving them behind the Devs are going to have to come up with something that provides its own exciting background, context and mystery (not impossible), whereas a mixture of previous factions is a goldmine for story writers.

Remember, aside from pagan/hammer/keeper, we have the mages, outer city threats (the mysterious 'war'), as well as the necromancer types, undead and beasts (fire elementals etc). There is a wealth of options here, why abandone them?

[Herr_Garrett]

Originally Posted by Platinumoxicity

The fourth game will have a new nemesis

Garrett's barely teenager clone created by the Kurshok, bent on the destruction of him and the Ente... Feder... City, you mean?

[darkmagicasorseer]

Garrett's night vision goggles is his mechanical green eye made by Karrass! No glyph for nightie vision!

[Hamadriyad]

Garrett doesn't have a night vision! Only the zoom.

[Davehall380]

Originally Posted by Hamadriyad

Garrett doesn't have a night vision! Only the zoom.

Unfortunatley, it seems that in TDS the developers decided to give garrett this annoying black and white vision with the use of the eye, so in a way there was night vision (it managed the player to see objects/actors from the enviroment)

[CerraMorgan]

Technically, the Glyphs still exist, as you can see Gamall drawing one over and over in the air in the last scene of TDS, however they no longer invoke magick.

You can argue either that the Keepers have lost the ability to use the Glyphs to invoke magick (but that someone else could), or that the Glyphs are no longer empowered.

Personally, I believe the Glyphs are no longer empowered. As others have pointed out, the Final Glyph was intended as a failsafe, effectively shutting down the connection Glyphs had with magick.

It's a bit like flicking a switch on a lamp with a burnt out bulb - no matter who flicks the switch or how many times they try to use it, it's just not going to light up. Of course, if you change the bulb... or the manner of invocation... you will have a lot more success.

So, I fall on the side of no Glyphs in T4, but a new method of accessing magick could be interesting, particularly if you think of it being like developing new software - there are going to be some unexpected results while all the bugs are worked out.

[jtr7]

Yes!

Except... Gamall's last attempt to create a glyph sputters in it's making and disperses before she can finish it. Considering she's the queen of glyphs and extremely well-practiced, it's possible we are seeing something else, something extra, the elements reacting to a taint of other magic.

I don't believe the Glyph was called the Final one or the Last of All just to sound assertive. I would hope the the times would once again be written, but by a new means that ex-Keepers can't touch, even if that simply means a jump far enough into the future for all the cycles to began their upswing. I would think that the new start would have to involve something that gives the new users intuition and understanding very quickly, lest they become corrupt and unbalanced and need erasing again so soon. The ancient Keepers had enough experiences to draw from to know that things could go wrong anywhere down the line.

But yes.

[CerraMorgan]

Originally Posted by jtr7

Gamall's last attempt to create a glyph sputters in it's making and disperses before she can finish it. Considering she's the queen of glyphs and extremely well-practiced, it's possible we are seeing something else, something extra, the elements reacting to a taint of other magic.

Well, she is drawing it in the air, with her fingers, and getting a blue flamey image - which indicates use of magick even though the Glyph evaporates as it begins to take form.

So, my theory is, you could still write a glyph symbol using quill & ink or carve it into something but it wouldn't be a Glyph - unmagical, it would be no different than writing a regular letter.

This means to me that magick is still accessible to the Keepers, they have just lost their method of invocation. Kind of like taking away a Pagan Shaman's staff. Assuming that there are Keepers in T4, they could theoretically devise a new method of accessing the magick. Or, as you say, it could eventually come full circle and the Glyphs could regain their power.

IF it was part of the storyline, I do think that it would take quite some time (decades, if not centuries) for the Keepers to become proficient in the use of other methods of invoking magick, so it's not like Gamall could suddenly figure something out and return in T4.

[darkmagicasorseer]

If Ms. Gammal, is the queen of the glyphs and the glyphs are gone, what will the Keepers do to her? eliminate her? Or confine her in a dungeon where the Keepers can extract her powers to restore the glyphs?

[Herr_Garrett]

Originally Posted by CerraMorgan

Well, she is drawing it in the air, with her fingers, and getting a blue flamey image - which indicates use of magick even though the Glyph evaporates as it begins to take form.

It's only a smoky trail even as she's drawing it.

[Platinumoxicity]

Why are some people so obsessed over "glyph powers"? I didn't even know there were any powers until TDS. I just thought that the keepers had skillz. The glyph powers weren't significant until TDS and I think they could stay removed too. We didn't need them in T1 and T2, and they were still better games.

Actually, most of the stuff that was introduced in TDS could be removed with no negative impact, IMO.

[jtr7]

CerraMorgan: I pretty much stated that she's creating that sputtery trail with magic. I said it's not Glyph magic. She's centuries old and hoards secret magic for herself. It's not out of the question something else is creating that effect.

darkmagicasorseer: I believe she was put on trial, but there's no way she had anything other than answers to questions to give. She also did not know enough about the Garrett's role, the Finality of the Glyph, and did not know the whole prophecy, or she would've done things differently, rather than express confusion and frustration and panic. Her own plans, though measured out over the centuries, failed to include any contingencies. She was too self-assured and she blew it after all that time. The point being, Gamall is helpless to help the Keepers bring anything back. She didn't seem to have anymore secrets about any restoration. She seemed confident she was ruined.

[Hamadriyad]

Originally Posted by Davehall380

Unfortunatley, it seems that in TDS the developers decided to give garrett this annoying black and white vision with the use of the eye, so in a way there was night vision (it managed the player to see objects/actors from the enviroment)

Yes, I hope EM fix it. Why black and white anyway?

[CerraMorgan]

Originally Posted by jtr7

CerraMorgan: I pretty much stated that she's creating that sputtery trail with magic. I said it's not Glyph magic. She's centuries old and hoards secret magic for herself. It's not out of the question something else is creating that effect.

Actually, that was pretty much the same point I was trying to make. As discussed elsewhere, magick is everywhere in the Thief universe. Gamall (and everyone else) is still capable of using magick, just not of using Glyphs to invoke magick. The tracing in the air evaporated either because it was a glyph symbol (and blocked by the Final Glyph) or because Gamall didn't have sufficient skill to invoke magick without Glyphs, or both.

Yes, Gamall is centuries old, and she had been using Glyphs all that time to invoke magick. She's been through a trauma, returned to a decrepit body (and mind?) and hasn't much (if any) experience in using other methods of invoking magick. Her entire existence is based on Glyph magick.

It's highly unlikely that she will live long enough to figure out how to properly access magick in another way. Plus, I don't think the Keepers will be much inclined to let her experiment!

[CerraMorgan]

Originally Posted by Hamadriyad

Yes, I hope EM fix it. Why black and white anyway?

I agree. That particular "feature" was useless at best, and rather annoying in my opinion. I want the old zoom back!