The importance of larger missions than TDS!

[AbysmalGale]

Well, I guess this has been discussed in other threads, but I think the issue deserves a thread of its own.

I just watched a video on YouTube with someone completing St. Edgar's Cathedral (from TDS) in eight(!!!) minutes, on expert (maybe he's a member here?). And not only did he use expert. He had the following demands for making it count:

(1) Not get Caught EVEN ONCE. -when they begin to run and follow you through the shadows your caught-
(2) No Knocking out/Killing/Flash bombing guards, No tools maybe used except lock picks.
(3)No turning off lights (extinguish lamps and candles, etc.)
4) No damage taken (from falling off too high for example)
(5) Steal 100% of the loot in each mission.
(6) If distraction is needed, you may only use objects like candle sticks, box, etc. No Noisemaker arrows.
(7)These rules apply to "The City" also.
(8)-I JUST REMEMBERED- Do not lead enemy Factions so that they kill eachother. (Lead pagans to hammerites, lead zombies to people, etc) If they happened to run into eachother on their own acord, thats fine.

Check the clip yourselves at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sSICYp8ssI

If it is possible to complete a level on expert, with these conditions, one might suggest that the level is a bit too small. And perhaps a bit too easy as well.

The player is doubtless an experienced gamer, and has obviously played through this level many times. But I still think that eight minutes is far too short time to be accepted, no matter how skilled the player is. There is for example no way you could finish "Shipping and Recieving" or "First City Bank and Trust" with such a time limit (not to mention "Life of the Party" or "Trail of Blood". Those levels are extraordinary large though), even though you played it through a hundred times. The only mission in TMA that can be finished that fast is "Running Interference", which is a training mission (correct me if I'm wrong please).

So my request for Thief 4 is LARGE main levels. I don't want levels that can be completed in less than an hour on expert, even if I've been playing it through a dozen times.

[kaekaelyn]

I have developmental topographical disorientation. I wish I could appreciate level design, I really do, but I can't even tell the difference between the size of TMA levels and TDS levels because of my condition. Honestly. I guess the 8 minutes thing proves it, but it takes me hours to finish even levels like St. Edgar's Cathedral because I get so lost.

[kabatta]

It is mentioned in the other topics that we wan large missions. Personally, i think the cathedral is full of shadows. Allso...I see no real glory in poltergeisting a level.

[kaekaelyn]

I dunno, the guy's just making a challenge for himself to keep the game interesting. Nothing wrong with that.

[kabatta]

Ghosting is a challenge. Alltough I get bored easily and make everybody go to sleep. Those hammers seem too easy to fool.

[kaekaelyn]

Sure, it's a challenge, and this guy does a different challenge. No need to pretend there's some sort of dishonor in doing it one way or another...it's fun to find your own way to keep the game fresh.

[kabatta]

Obviously. There is nice that we still have a lot of ways to approach the game. A little more space with different patrol patterns and it would be better.

[AbysmalGale]

Originally Posted by kabatta

It is mentioned in the other topics that we wan large missions.

Yes I know. But I couldn't find a proper thread for it. Also, I wanted to point out an example of how a mission should NOT be, length-wise. I mean, the St. Edgar's Cathedral is a nicely designed level and breathes a lot of Thief-atmosphere, but it's way too small! I know some missions in TDS were a bit larger, but nothing like Life of the Party or Trail of Blood. Those types of missions are extraordinary and long lasting, and should be far more common in T4 than they were in TDS.

[kaekaelyn]

Yeah, true, it isn't just about level size, it's also about bad guard placement. And the fact that TDS AI is not sensitive enough. If you're going to make it so you can creep absolutely silently on all surfaces, AT LEAST make guards ultra-sensitive to the slightest sound you DO make. And they're just not. They often give up when their suspicions should be reinforced by the loud clamoring sounds.

I know it has a lot to do with size, too, but I just don't feel like I have the expertise to talk about that.

[kabatta]

They don't get suspicious even if you throw a bucket full of horse-shoes at them. As i rudely said in another thread, they are a little lobotomized. :P

[AbysmalGale]

Originally Posted by kaekaelyn

Yeah, true, it isn't just about level size, it's also about bad guard placement. And the fact that TDS AI is not sensitive enough. If you're going to make it so you can creep absolutely silently on all surfaces, AT LEAST make guards ultra-sensitive to the slightest sound you DO make. And they're just not. They often give up when their suspicions should be reinforced by the loud clamoring sounds.

I know it has a lot to do with size, too, but I just don't feel like I have the expertise to talk about that.

A good point. I hope the AI's will be more difficult to deal with in T4. Also, there should be no difference between AI in normal and expert difficulty. Don't remember if this was the case i TDS though? I hope it won't happen in T4.

[kaekaelyn]

It was the case in TDS. I didn't like that.

[Master Taffer]

I'de like to point out that I complete Lord Bafford's Manor in a little under a minute before.

While I agree that Deadly Shadows' missions are far too small, but speed runs aren't the proper gauge for that.

[Hypevosa]

I'd say that a map that takes me at least 5 minutes to run from one opposite end to the other, maybe longer is good (like I think maybe 10 minutes for top of cragscleft to the bottom of it? idk, that one I lost track of since I was dragging basso along for the ride..). and I mean running, flat out. Because that's normally what I do since I play mister sandman style. Dems nice sized levels ^_^

[ToMegaTherion]

I can't remember how long it takes to get to the evidence room in Cragscleft but it is a lot shorter than 10 minutes, but rather longer than the 30 seconds or so it takes to get to Bafford's throne room.

Of course it's incomparable with Deadly Shadows due to the diagonal jumping giving you ridiculously high speeds.

[Neb]

Originally Posted by AbysmalGale

I just watched a video on YouTube with someone completing St. Edgar's Cathedral (from TDS) in eight(!!!) minutes, on expert[...]

Count yourself lucky that Saint Edgar's is bigger than it's portrayed on the outside, from the city hub.

[Belboz]

the ai on the console version of thief 3 were dumbed down so not to frustrate certain players, that speed run looks like the console version, am pretty shure its a lot harder on the pc version where the guards go twitchy at the slightest hint of something wrong, but on the speed run they obviously see something in nearly full bright but dont do anything, if you did that on the pc you'll be finding yourself on the floor with a hammer coming at your head.

Those city hubs are stupidly small, compared to an actual medieval building which were rather on the large size, eg a medieval farmhouse, at one end you keep the livestock, cow, sheep, pigs, and the other end would be the family, with a partition wall in the middle to keep the areas seperate. the walls would be 1 1/2 foot to 2 foot thick.

[AbysmalGale]

Originally Posted by Master Taffer

I'de like to point out that I complete Lord Bafford's Manor in a little under a minute before.

While I agree that Deadly Shadows' missions are far too small, but speed runs aren't the proper gauge for that.

Ok. Well, for sure that's a rather short time (did you do this on expert?). But then later on in the game the levels grow a lot larger, which isn't really comparable to the small levels in TDS.

[Master Taffer]

Originally Posted by AbysmalGale

Ok. Well, for sure that's a rather short time (did you do this on expert?). But then later on in the game the levels grow a lot larger, which isn't really comparable to the small levels in TDS.

Normal. Run through the front gate, run up the stairs, run to the secret entrance to the throne room, run in and grab the scepter. It's quite a rush to get chased to the finish line like that. Not to mention bunny hopping helps.

Like I said, I agree that Deadly Shadows have small levels. A speed run video just isn't an accurate way to gauge that.

[AbysmalGale]

Originally Posted by Master Taffer

Normal. Run through the front gate, run up the stairs, run to the secret entrance to the throne room, run in and grab the scepter. It's quite a rush to get chased to the finish line like that. Not to mention bunny hopping helps.

Ok. But how fast do you think you could make it on expert?

Originally Posted by Master Taffer

Like I said, I agree that Deadly Shadows have small levels. A speed run video just isn't an accurate way to gauge that.

Perhaps not. But the fact that he more or less ghosted the mission on expert in such a short time is an indication of that something is not right.

[Master Taffer]

Originally Posted by AbysmalGale

Ok. But how fast do you think you could make it on expert?

Maybe 5 minutes, since I have to gather loot. It's also far harder, as I have less health to take arrows.

Perhaps not. But the fact that he more or less ghosted the mission on expert in such a short time is an indication of that something is not right.

It's a speed run, man. That's the whole reasoning behind them. Doing something amazing as quickly as possible. I've seen people get Silent Assassin ratings in under a minute on Hitman before. That's an assassination with zero alerts, no innocent people or guards killed, maximum of one shot fired, and no bodies found. There's an entire league devoted to speed running games, it's close to being a spectator sport for many gamers.

And I AGREE with you that the missions are small. I'm not challenging that point.

[DoomyDoomyDoomDoom]

Wow that video, I don't remember the guards sucking that much in TDS. Maybe it's because I made a habit of staying in the dark areas and not running around guards. To think that was unnecessary this whole time ><

[kabatta]

With an AI that doesn't correctly mold to the difficulty level any tests of ghosting, speed-run, poltergeistering, etc seem like empty achievements. To me at least. I noticed that even in hitman the AI's respond late, but the levels are huge enough, balancing things.

[kaekaelyn]

Seems that the TDS AI was better in some ways, and worse in others. The problem is that the TDS stealth mechanics exacerbated the AI shortcomings and nullified the improvements.

Examples:

Upgrade: AI begins searching earlier in TDS (correct me if I'm wrong), but this improvement is somewhat nullified by the fact that a guard searching for you isn't that scary in TDS because wall-flattening makes you nigh invisible even to a searching guard. Also, throwing a flashbomb is a risk-free way to escape (even though you can't blackjack your blinded opponent, it always felt overpowered to me because it required no skill and you always had plenty)

Downgrade: AI is far less sensitive to sounds, and this problem is made worse by the fact that it is far, far easier to walk silently in TDS than it was in the previous two games. They are likely to dismiss sounds that alerted them even when sounds are still going on around them.

Upgrade AI appears to be more sensitive to light than in the previous installments, but this improvement doesn't do much to help the game because the game in general lacks as many well-lit areas as TDP and TMA, from what I can remember, and what I particularly mean is halls and other large areas with electric lights. There are almost always shadows to slip into nearby, or torches to put out.

These are a few examples. I know this is off-topic from the original post but it has been brought up so I hope it's not too much of a tangent. I am posting this from the perspective of a player who doesn't have much intimate knowledge with the AI, only what she has experienced, or believes to have experienced, in playing the Thief games. So take my specifics a grain of salt, but as for the general idea I think it's sound.

[AbysmalGale]

Originally Posted by kaekaelyn

Seems that the TDS AI was better in some ways, and worse in others. The problem is that the TDS stealth mechanics exacerbated the AI shortcomings and nullified the improvements.

Examples:

Upgrade: AI begins searching earlier in TDS (correct me if I'm wrong), but this improvement is somewhat nullified by the fact that a guard searching for you isn't that scary in TDS because wall-flattening makes you nigh invisible even to a searching guard. Also, throwing a flashbomb is a risk-free way to escape (even though you can't blackjack your blinded opponent, it always felt overpowered to me because it required no skill and you always had plenty)

Downgrade: AI is far less sensitive to sounds, and this problem is made worse by the fact that it is far, far easier to walk silently in TDS than it was in the previous two games. They are likely to dismiss sounds that alerted them even when sounds are still going on around them.

Upgrade AI appears to be more sensitive to light than in the previous installments, but this improvement doesn't do much to help the game because the game in general lacks as many well-lit areas as TDP and TMA, from what I can remember, and what I particularly mean is halls and other large areas with electric lights. There are almost always shadows to slip into nearby, or torches to put out.

These are a few examples. I know this is off-topic from the original post but it has been brought up so I hope it's not too much of a tangent. I am posting this from the perspective of a player who doesn't have much intimate knowledge with the AI, only what she has experienced, or believes to have experienced, in playing the Thief games. So take my specifics a grain of salt, but as for the general idea I think it's sound.

Yup, I think you're definitely right. All in all, the AI's of TDS were a lot worse than in previous games, mostly concerning the points you've mentioned. That is probably one of the main reasons to why St. Edgar's Cathedral can be finished so incredibly fast, aside from the mission being too small. Also, the fact that Garrett's steps are much more soundless than in TDP and TMA, makes it even easier.

And yeah, I had forgotten the wall-leaning stupidity. It was total nonsense. I mean, in the sewers, when I first met the sewer monsters, I just leaned to the wall. The monster would put his face up Garrett's face, and I mean cheek to cheek, but not notice him. That took away a lot of the fun, and it also took away all the creepiness of the monsters.