An A.I. Discussion

[Nightwynd]

Although guards in chainmail or such shouldn't be able to swim and they ought to get fatigued, sooner than Garrett at least.

[Platinumoxicity]

A new AI mechanic: When a guard has seen or heard something suspicious multiple times, he no longer announces that he has noticed something. And if he happens to go to full alert (player is seen) when the player happens to look in the wrong direction, he will not say anything and will just walk up behind the player and then attack. If the player turns to look at him while he's coming towards the player, then the guard starts shouting like normal.

Also if a guard has heard suspicious noises multiple times, he could sometimes stop on his tracks to listen, for more than just 5 seconds, and if he hears something during that time, he would instantly run to the direction of the sound to see what's going on.

[Tryst]

Yes Plat, a slightly more intuitive AI would be welcome.

[DarkDagger]

Would you people like to have some of the servants not alerting.I mean like in Ramirez's house the ones talking about "his fatness". The first time i heard them i thought that showing up in front of them will be beneficial for some loot information.

[jtr7]

What do you mean? All AIs that aren't dead or knocked unconscious may become alerted, but about a third of them may have informing conversations.

[Tryst]

Could Darkdagger mean maybe an idea that the servant doesn't like his lordship and offers information if you leave them alone.


Servant: "I'll tell you a secret if you don't kill me."
Garrett: "I'm listening."
After which, they proceed to tell you of a hidden switch for a cache of loot and then move around ignoring you as if you weren't even there.

[DarkDagger]

[Platinumoxicity]

Originally Posted by Tryst

Could Darkdagger mean maybe an idea that the servant doesn't like his lordship and offers information if you leave them alone.


Servant: "I'll tell you a secret if you don't kill me."
Garrett: "I'm listening."
After which, they proceed to tell you of a hidden switch for a cache of loot and then move around ignoring you as if you weren't even there.

I don't think a servant or a guard could be trusted. At least if I was Garrett I wouldn't trust them. Okay I'm taking here from a ghoster perspective, but Garrett is good enough in his job to clean out a place without anyone knowing he was there. If there's no evidence of a break-in, the guards and servants are the first ones to blame. No matter how much a servant or a guard would despise their master, they would get their heads chopped off if they would allow anything to be stolen without fighting back. If Garrett would ask a servant for information, the servant would immediately go alert the guards and tell his master, in hopes of getting a reward, and because otherwise he would probably end up with concrete feet. Garrett would need to tie the informant up and hide him in a closet.

[Hypevosa]

Not all people react to the situation the same way though plat... speaking of which, where on earth did that thread go to that talked about multiple kinds of personalities amongst guards? I see no reason that non-guard NPC's shouldn't have the same level of depth.

[Tryst]

Although you make a good point Plat, the servants automatically think you are going to kill them when most of Garretts victims actually receive little more than a headache. That, together with their dislike of their master, would lead them to reveal anything if they thought it would save their lives right here and now. Thinking long term under those circumstances is not really an option for them. If you were standing between them and the only exit, they would chew off their own hand at Garretts request if they thought it would save their lives.

There can always be a scroll carried by a guard with the same information on further into the mission. Something like the lord telling the guard to make sure a particular drawer of the desk is closed while on their rounds, no reason for it but obviously Garrett would be inqusitive enough to want to learn why. Another alternative is that the guard checks the drawer and asks himself aloud why the lord was so insistant on the guard making sure it was locked, this also adds a hint that you pick the lock but need to lock it again with the lockpicks after you trigger the hidden switch so the guard won't be alerted to it being unlocked on his next patrol.

This would be the alternative if you kill or KO the servant or are ghosting. Although the same information can be found elsewhere, it just adds a bit of depth into the otherwise predictable reactions of the NPC's.

[Madigan]

is anyone from EIDOS actually reading this?

I think this post should go straight to the AI programers.

[Turzt]

Some of my ideas.

Investigated areas memory:

AI guards should keep track of which areas they have investigated recently and which areas not. They could
"paint" their own knowledge map by walking and watching. If they have not checked somewhere for a long time,
they should check that. Guards could have their responsibility area instead of walking route (or it could
depend on guard).
This would also benefit the "alert" mode. Now they just sneak randomly to "search the area" but they don't
really try to search for all the places, because it reality they don't keep track of what they know and
what they don't.

In the spirit of the area memory above, it would make sense that it they notice/hear something (but not 100% sure),
they should check it, instead of going on. If they as a guard see something slipping behind a corner, wouldn't
they be intereseted to check if it was just "rats".

Other thoughts about hearing/seeing:
* Immediate recognition of noise source is a bit weird. Without seeing, how do they know who makes those steps without checking it?
(they are lots of guards and lots of noise sources yes! some workaround should be done in order to prevent them to overcheck everyting)
maybe a noise-saturation state. If they constantly hear noises, which are not dangerous, they just get used to them and don't care anymore!
* background noise ("sum of other noises") should affect guards hearing you. There have been many hammerite factories
working but still they hear your light steps. How?
* Some actions like opening and closing doors is now almost ignored by guards. There should be no such illogicalities. All that makes noise should be hears by others, and reacted accordingly.

Guards chasing you should actually chase the point you are running into. Now it is too easy to bypass guards by running next to them.

[Ankle]

It's been too long since I played TDS to remember clearly, but I got the feeling anyone would attack you on sight walking the street regardless of whether you were brandishing a weapon or provoking anyone in any other way. It was the same in "Ambush!", wasn't it, everyone attacking you in a seemingly neutral environment? Anyway, If there are neutral areas in levels and/or a city hub (shudder) in T4, I'd like to stay unmolested there, even by patrolling guards, as long as I don't bother anyone else.

[jtr7]

I like the TDP/Gold/TMA variations of areas (rather than buying allies who all know simultaneously about Garrett's actions affecting Faction Alliance Status changes), ranging from areas where Garrett's type wasn't seen as a threat and he was passed by unless he had a weapon drawn or he started something, areas where if Garrett really wasn't supposed to be there he was a threat, areas where Garrett went where few were stupid enough to try and we discover why, areas where Garrett would be fine if it wasn't for unusual circumstances. Keep it organic and reasonable for the story, territory by territory and who there would know him, if at all, and why. And I hope they keep Garrett's character intact, meaning, he shouldn't be well known by so many, if he's the main character.

[Ankle]

As a matter of fact, shouldn't Garrett be virtually invisible to someone not looking for him? Being a Keeper and all? Civilians shouldn't even notice you unless you bump into them.

[jtr7]

Garrett never had that ability except in deep shadows, or with an invisibility potion. Keepers used Glyphs to remain absolutely unnoticed in the open and in bright light. Garrett was only a Glyph-user for most of 7 days, and then destroyed all Glyph magic, yet still never used any Glyphs for non-detection. He still needs deep shadows to remain unseen as always.

[Hypevosa]

The keepers abused glyphs to make people willfully ignorant of their existence, and then supplemented that with learning how to move and behave in non-intrusive ways as to not break the illusion they created. If a keeper was walking by you in a crowd you wouldn't know it, and if he acted as a normal person and walked beside you down a normal corridor you'd likely just ignore him - but if he stood right in front of you (you being a guard now) and he wasn't supposed to be there, you'd will it enough to overcome the wards against recognizing him. If the glyphs were all powerful, there would be no reason for the keepers to also be trained in subtlety. Garrett had a strong enough, raw willpower to penetrate the wards outright, which marked him as very different from the normal sheep that are the people of The City.

[Thugo]

So a guard hearing Garrett's footsteps in an odd place/time = his alert status goes up.

But if a guard hears Garrett's footsteps (walking, not running) in a place where guards often walk through = his alert status remains unchanged......but if Garrett's footsteps are running in this location = alert status goes up.

[jtr7]

Garrett doesn't walk like a guard or wear their boots.

[Hypevosa]

I think that may work for someone who's hearing a sound THROUGH something else, like a wall or a floor since you lose alot of the fine details of a sound when it has to travel like that. However, it's pretty distinguishable in other circumstances. Assuming Garrett doesn't wear guard boots, despite the sound, you'd notice that someone you can normally hear from all the way down a 40 foot hallway is suddenly unable to be heard until they're already half way down it. Garrett's lack of armor/boots and quiet nature would betray that he's not a guard, even if he could match their gait.

[Tryst]

Originally Posted by Turzt

Some of my ideas.

Investigated areas memory:

AI guards should keep track of which areas they have investigated recently and which areas not. They could
"paint" their own knowledge map by walking and watching. If they have not checked somewhere for a long time,
they should check that. Guards could have their responsibility area instead of walking route (or it could
depend on guard).
This would also benefit the "alert" mode. Now they just sneak randomly to "search the area" but they don't
really try to search for all the places, because it reality they don't keep track of what they know and
what they don't.

In the spirit of the area memory above, it would make sense that it they notice/hear something (but not 100% sure),
they should check it, instead of going on. If they as a guard see something slipping behind a corner, wouldn't
they be intereseted to check if it was just "rats".

Other thoughts about hearing/seeing:
* Immediate recognition of noise source is a bit weird. Without seeing, how do they know who makes those steps without checking it?
(they are lots of guards and lots of noise sources yes! some workaround should be done in order to prevent them to overcheck everyting)
maybe a noise-saturation state. If they constantly hear noises, which are not dangerous, they just get used to them and don't care anymore!
* background noise ("sum of other noises") should affect guards hearing you. There have been many hammerite factories
working but still they hear your light steps. How?
* Some actions like opening and closing doors is now almost ignored by guards. There should be no such illogicalities. All that makes noise should be hears by others, and reacted accordingly.

Guards chasing you should actually chase the point you are running into. Now it is too easy to bypass guards by running next to them.

Some good points. As a security guard myself, I know that remaining unpredictable is important. Changing you patrol routes and times, checking particular areas more than once in a single patrol and so on will throw off someone who is trying to find a pattern so they can get in and out without you noticing. From a game perspective, it would require you to be far more alert than normal.

Okay, you can't have that level of difficulty in a game as standard, for the younger players or those not experienced in this type of game, it would be too much. However, maybe a toggle for "unpredictable guards" would make for a more enjoyable game for the experienced players.

While guards having better hearing and vision makes it difficult, just having the guards become unpredictable would make it much more difficult even with the same hearing and vision as easy mode. Add in better hearing and vision to it and you have the equivalent of a "nightmare" difficulty for a stealth game.

[GepardenK]

Here is an (probably already mentioned) idea for making gameplay interesting. Make guards have a lot better hearing than in earlier games, but to compensate; make guards unable to differentiate sounds the player makes from sounds made by other guards and civilians.
Now tweak AI so that they won’t go being alerted by each other all the time, but still react if they hear something suspicious. The result is an effective guard AI that has human faults and can be fooled, which again equals awesome. Guards would also end up hunting each other on rare occasions, which is just hilarious.

Another idea: make environmental sound matter! A guard standing next to a busy machine should be almost deaf to external sounds. A guard standing alone in an empty garden should have dog ears. A guard talking to another should be somewhere in the middle. My first idea would make the dog eared guards not overpowered.

Last idea: Same system for light. A guard standing near a fireplace should be blind to any dark area. A guard standing in almost total darkness would have eagle eyes. Same thing should apply to the player. This would make an interesting lightness vs darkness dilemma when moving through a level with water arrows at hand (sometimes making everything dark is not a good idea).

Okay, one last idea: Make zombies have terrible vision but instead have an excellent sense of smell. Flip the whole “lightness vs darkness” gameplay to an “upwind vs downwind” thing when facing the undead. Have a wounded player being swarmed when they smell his blood, scary stuff!

The nice thing with gameplay elements like these is that the player gets conscious about his environment and immersion rockets up tenfold. Suddenly the level is more than fancy graphics and corners to hide behind, it’s a real place.

[Rockn-Roll]

I think the best idea is to use the original Thief: the Dark Project as a template and give us a deeper story...use the same timeline and mission types....guaranteed fun.

[jtr7]

[xAcerbusx]

Originally Posted by Rockn-Roll

I think the best idea is to use the original Thief: the Dark Project as a template and give us a deeper story...use the same timeline and mission types....guaranteed fun.

I'd go with Thief II as the template, personally. More thieving, less Indiana Jones-ing. But that's just my personal taste. Dark Project is great, too.