LOADING sectors / Non Linear Open Space & Rooftop Action!

[Altair]

Sorry if this has been already mentioned somewhere, but for me, the one major buzz kill in T3 was the loading sectors. I mean, the city was still huge and fun to explore, but I miss the feeling of open space like we had with the Marketplace and Angelwatch missions in T2.

I think that this is the most important aspect that was missing in T3 from previous games and should be brought back in T4. The bigger the city, the more we can explore on the ground and on the rooftops, the better!

By the end of getting through T3, I was starting to feel a bit claustrophobic from all the reloading.

[Viktoria]

Good thread. This has been discussed generally in other threads, but no reason why we can't have a dedicated discussion.

I agree about the loading sectors in T3 - it was a complete immersion-breaker and I never had a real sense of open space,.
Same with the absence of the Thieves Highway/rooftop action. I missed this element very much in T3.

Bring it all back to us, EM.

[Prince_VLAD]

Originally Posted by Altair

Sorry if this has been already mentioned somewhere, but for me, the one major buzz kill in T3 was the loading sectors. I mean, the city was still huge and fun to explore, but I miss the feeling of open space like we had with the Marketplace and Angelwatch missions in T2.

I think that this is the most important aspect that was missing in T3 from previous games and should be brought back in T4. The bigger the city, the more we can explore on the ground and on the rooftops, the better!

By the end of getting through T3, I was starting to feel a bit claustrophobic from all the reloading.

I couldn't agree more...

[Direlord]

The loading things i think were more because of the technology of the time seem consolitis is to blame for that. One thing i hated about the loading was if a guard was running after you and you loaded he would still be in the same spot trying to get you whenever you loaded back.

I don't think there should be the open area between missions while it had some RPG like elements it was somewhat pointless besides getting more loot. Having to go to several fences to sell and buy gear I felt was a chore especially with how the game went i had enough money to buy full gear for every item twice over. T1 & T2 I often had to make hard decisions of what to buy should i buy more water arrows or get that one more rope arrow. Should i get the gas mines or this other thing i might need. Other than the very early missions of T3 i never really had a problem oh look a new item i couldn't get before i'll take your whole stock sir.

However I think it would be good to have more missions involving going through the streets or over roofs to get to his target or to his hideout. You'd think people would be chasing after and looking for Garrett a lot more after the mission.

I would even think of having a daytime or more dusk mission of walking around the city trying to get to his next target specifically. T3 Garrett always moved in the dark which makes sense but is the city that small? Was his apartment so centrally located he was 20 min away from everything? In most of the missions early he is already at his target for the night how did he get there? i'd guess he went during the day or late evening and waited for darkness to make his move.

I don't think you should do that to every mission though it would just get tedious and boring. It would make a nice change of pace type of mission of only used say once in the game.

[DoomyDoomyDoomDoom]

Yea, I like rooftops and open spaces. The less linearity the better.
less linearity = more playabililty

Originally Posted by Direlord

Having to go to several fences to sell and buy gear I felt was a chore especially with how the game went i had enough money to buy full gear for every item twice over. T1 & T2 I often had to make hard decisions of what to buy should i buy more water arrows or get that one more rope arrow. Should i get the gas mines or this other thing i might need. Other than the very early missions of T3 i never really had a problem oh look a new item i couldn't get before i'll take your whole stock sir.

Agreed, pretty annoying and the overflow of money removed the fun challenge of preparing for a mission.

[Terr]

The T3-sized loading sections definitely must go. I hated them in DXIW too.

But it's not just the size of explorable-area per section, but also a matter of travel times: I'd rather have one big level which is all the roads and alleyways, and give the smaller side-exploration buildings their own level, simply because you don't want to make a player load a level three times just to travel from A to B.

[Hypevosa]

Now, most people agree that the first and the second games were far superior to the third... however, I really did enjoy one aspect of the 3rd game... The sandbox inbetween levels. Really, it was FUN, in between story missions you still got to be a thief on your way home... lifting a purse here, maybe a mugging if you're so inclined, or a run from the guards... I personally enjoyed it alot, so I ask you, would you rather have the sandbox style in between mission style of thief 3? or would you rather just end up where you need to be there?

I personally believe that the trip is part of the adventure, and especially if you're a renowned thief, between bounty hunters and guards looking to get paid for catching ya or killing ya, the trip is part of the fun... and profits ;D

[FrankCSIS]

I'd much, much rather have 3-4 different large locations in-between missions than one big sandbox that has the same look and texture everywhere you go.

I like the idea of life outside of missions, but having one large place with no purpose or script tends to kill the mood, especially so since all sandboxes never really take into account what you decide to do within them, which essentially ends up looking silly, or plain contradictory.

[DEATHRIDEthenailer]

I have to agree with you Hypevosa, I loved the Thiefs Highway and crawling around inbetween missions looking for easter eggs or the occasional noble to mug. I think a semi linear mission track along with lots of side quests make for a fun, and more importantly, replayable game. Look at games like Oblivion and such.

[Terr]

Aside from the loading times, my biggest problem was remembering which place I'd already burgled each night. (I had lots of money to spare after buying everything in town...)

[Hypevosa]

I'm glad I'm not alone I was also tinkering with the idea of maybe having a recognition factor in the game... like during jobs if someone spots you and you're looking at them, they slowly put together what you look like (based on distance, light factor etc). If you assault someone head on, they'll get a full look at you, so if you don't kill them, you'll see your face on wanted posters, and getting home or just walking in crowds will be hell, because someone will recognize you. Attempting to conceal your identity would be a cool addition to the game, and wouldn't provide any problem for already thiefly acting people. If you act like a psychotic murderer, you'll get your posters up as fast as one.

[Apprentice101]

To what you call 'sandbox' i would say YES please, ALL THE WAY!

[DoomyDoomyDoomDoom]

I liked that too. I wouldn't mind seeing it again if it can be made bigger. I like exploring and I felt that the stuff between the missions was a good 'breather' if you will. Really, TDS had some good things going for it.

[DarthEnder]

I must be the only one that hated the sandbox hub in T3. It was small, had constantly respawning guards, and if you robbed everything in it the first night, in subsequent nights, it was exactly the same, with the same items and look in the same places with the same characters guarding the same spots. It was completely repetitive running through it to buy my gear then onto the next level when all I wanted was to get on to the next unique level experience.

Frankly, I just don't have a use for it. Assassin's Creed had exactly what you guys are asking for, it was much bigger, and without the loading screens, but frankly, there's was nothing to DO in it, and it was a huge waste of design resources to make every nook and cranny of this huge city and then only have like 3 things you could do in it 6 times over.

I just want more Angelwatch Tower/Sheriff Truart's Manor. The building is the mission, but the more of the city outside you can attatch to the level and actually fill with interesting things, the better.

[Hypevosa]

I promise you, you aren't the only one. The sandbox in T3 did have some really annoying factors with it, but it offered freedom, and it did allow a breather between missions. And it made sense that if you stole everything the first night it was gone... But implemented correctly, it could be a great addition to the game. Doesn't it make sense that the guards are on their rounds in the same places? One thing I think should happen, is that certain treasure should respawn, you know... the donation box at the Builder Temple should be filled every night... well, not after Garrett goes out that is... But if some guy has a diamond ring for his fiance, and you steal it, chances are he can't afford another, or if he can, it's a week later. Stores, should always restock, but should up security either by adding a guard, or 2, or maybe an eye after every time you steal from them. It also allowed for some sticky situations, I.E. escaping the guards or the hammers because you did something you shouldn't have.

Maybe certain nights there would be optional things that the character would happen across on their way to the next mission. Let's say you overhear that tomorrow night the thieves guild is going to roll (Insert lord's mansion's name here) and so the next night, if you go to that area, you'll see the thieves leaving the compound, and get a chance at their loot, how you get it... well that'd be up to you. Or maybe you could let the guards know so that next time a local runs up to them saying someone stole his purse.... they'll ignore that black figure making its way through the shadows. Unique events every night, or every other night, could lead to some fun inter-mission play. and if you don't want to deal with it... well, you could always just ignore it? Maybe for people who don't want it they could have the equivalent of a fast travel, except for those situations where you might have to make your way home stealthily.

But I do agree with you, if you don't have a sandbox style city, including the city around missions would be more than welcome.

[Terr]

Originally Posted by DarthEnder

It was completely repetitive running through it to buy my gear then onto the next level when all I wanted was to get on to the next unique level experience.

What I'd really like to see is one level which comprises all the city streets and buildings. If you want to rob a building, that's a mini-level with a transition. If you already found everything (loot, notes, items, plot points) inside a building, it would tell you and prompt you if you really wanted to enter it.

So if you're just trying to get from A to B, you might encounter a few guards but the trip would be straightforward. If an invading Kushok army occupies the city... It might be an interesting experience too.

Now, I don't mean anything so expansive as "The Kingdom" in Assassin's Creed, at least not without some "warp to" option.

Assassin's Creed had exactly what you guys are asking for, it was much bigger, and without the loading screens, but frankly, there's was nothing to DO in it, and it was a huge waste of design resources to make every nook and cranny of this huge city and then only have like 3 things you could do in it 6 times over.

True. About the only reason to go around was to try to get all the lame achievement "flags".

[ZylonBane]

The problem with open-world sections are that they present significantly different gameplay design challenges than the dedicated mission maps. The developer basically has to do two games in one. And if there's one thing developers don't have an excess of, it's development resources.

Which is why TDS's city sections were full of lame and suck.

[FrankCSIS]

Unique events every night, or every other night, could lead to some fun inter-mission play. and if you don't want to deal with it... well, you could always just ignore it?

In an ideal world of countless hours and vast resources to spend on a game, this is the only type of "sandbox" I'd have in-between missions. The only way to make it work is to have interesting scripted events you can find out about if you look for them, let them pass by should you chose to ignore, or plain out miss on them if you never walked by that alley or decided to head right home/next objective. The important part here being, if you missed on a specific event on day 3, tough luck, it won't be there on day 4. The point being that this is the only way a game can keep track of your actions and bring consequences to future days, in ways that make sense and are coherent.

This is the type of "sandbox" offered by Deus Ex, which really were very large areas surrounding specific missions. It's a damn shame this kind of scripted freedom evolved into completely open world in later games, empty of events and free of scripts, where there is nothing to do and no consequences to your actions, because your absolute liberty of movements allows you to visit any area in the order of your choosing, making any story or event absolutely impossible to write in.

[Mr. Perfect]

It was nice having a bit of room to play with, but those respawning guards where beyond annoying. I'd knock one out so I could get past and into a shop, and on my way out of said shop there would be another one who'd taken his place. Seriously, where are they all coming from, and who's telling them to go and replace missing ones? Do citizens just ring up the free guard service and say "I haven't seen our patrol in 13.6 seconds, could you send us another one?". I could see a new guard showing up each night, but half a dozen in an hour?

[DarthEnder]

What it basically boils down to is, if making The City into a sandbox means I get a half a dozen less real missions because that's what the designers were spending their time making, I don't want a sandbox.

I want more missions.

[Hypevosa]

Originally Posted by DarthEnder

What it basically boils down to is, if making The City into a sandbox means I get a half a dozen less real missions because that's what the designers were spending their time making, I don't want a sandbox.

I want more missions.

Agreed. It's just like if they were to try multiplayer, it needs to be secondary... Sandbox should only be there if it doesn't detract from the final product. It doesn't even need to be GTA sized, god knows that would remove resources from where they need to be. But T3's size was about right in my opinion.

[Espion]

Originally Posted by DarthEnder

It was small, had constantly respawning guards, and if you robbed everything in it the first night, in subsequent nights, it was exactly the same, with the same items and look in the same places with the same characters guarding the same spots. It was completely repetitive running through it to buy my gear then onto the next level when all I wanted was to get on to the next unique level experience.

If they could eliminate all those problems I might be interested in a sandbox area between missions, otherwise no thanks.

The "city" in Thief 3 was quite frankly pathetic and they just shouldn't have bothered. The thing that really bugged me about it was that not only was it smaller than the city level in Thief 1 (where Garrett is trying to get home)... Not only is it smaller than the Old Quarter level... Not only is it smaller than the Docks in Thief 2... but it's smaller than Angel Watch! Not the Thieves Highway in the same level. it's actually smaller than the damn tower itself!

To be honest, if they were going to make a sandbox between levels, I'd rather it was just the Thieves Highway. Only the rooftops, with the occasional guard and some buidlings that Garrett can sneak into to steal supplies or extra loot. Forget adding anything on street level. I always got the impression that as a "Master Thief" Garrett was meant to be more of a cat burglar rather than a common thug mugging people in dark alleys. Keep him in the rooves, slipping into noble's homes and stealing their jewels!

[Terr]

Or better yet, keep the city streets and/or thieves'-highway, but don't sandbox it, just make small recurring missions in it. "Tail this guy and see where he goes." "Rob that store which you can now enter."

[Hypevosa]

see you don't want a small repetetive mission like that though, because it'll cause the same thing that Assassin's creed did when they had the same mission over and over... people will just be annoyed with it by that point.

I do agree though, the thieves highway should still be there too.

[Pipinowns]

I'd like to see a bigger thieves highway, and the city streets. Also, it would be cool to see the sandbox expanded a bit more, but not too much. I think it adds a lot to the game, because even though it's small, you still have the main missions to play.