Purists vs Innovation. Lets get constructive posts right!

[Apprentice101]

Hi,
First of all, i want to explain where from im coming from. I have played Thief since its first week of release. From 1998, December. I played all 3 installments, i played fan missions. I love Thief and im really protective over atmosphere/gameplay/world Thief has.

Knowing all this, i want to adress 2 types of fans here.

1)Hardcore fans, who think Thief II was most succesful and defined TRUE feeling of Thief.

2) Fans who radically and repetitevely want to make Thief IV - into their THief 1.5, 2.5, 3.5.

Now, hardcore fans all know what ingredients Thief game has to DEFINE what Thief is. ALL thief installments had different mix of ingredients, but overall Thief was a big success gameplay/world/immersion/atmosphere wise and thats why it still draws attention of us, fans. Its really great to have all you, all these years, bringing nice topics, fan missions, and community support to this game.

I also understand that making THief IV development into new RIGHT direction (from commnunity point of view) requires a lot of communication with developers and discussing same old topics. Its really nothing wrong in here.
Therefore, i want to ask you one not easy thing. Please stop being repetetive in the way by repeating same arguments in EVERY thread, even if it has DIFFERENT topic :

-Thief II is best. Make thief IV new Thief 2.5
-Bring back rope arrows, water and get rid of loading zones.
-Dont make console versions/dont make console versions ruin pc experience.
-Dont add NEW, previously not present features - it will ruin my Thief 1/2. Look at THief 3!
-What LOGO IS THIS ?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?
- Bring back old Garret with same voice actor.

I do not disagree with any of these statements. Actually i tend to agree with most of them. Just the relevance of reading some REALLY interesting topics always gets killed by same statements. Yes there are topics that discusses such things as - What THief installment you think was best? or What features you would like to return and from which installment? But there are new topics which discusses other things, and yet they get drowned in the same irrelevant rant.

Thank you for understanding.

[arkhanari]

Being one of those purists who has been on TTLG for ages I have to agree with you that some of us - myself included - do have an automatic reaction criticising everything that isn't exactly as Thief 1 and 2 were. This is, with after thought, of course foolish. Then again most of us are not teenage console players - we are adults or young adults who prefer a game with a good story and stealth gameplay before visuals and action.

Today you have to release games that work on today's market. With that said though there is an important decision to be made:

Does Eidos want to release a game that nets as much profit as possible - going for the mass market?
Does Eidos want to release a game that holds a high standard when it comes to artistic values?
Or try to do a mix of both?

Now, if you just want to make a game that appeals to the mass market (young console players) then I just have to say that maybe they shouldn't use the Thief franchise for such a project. The core values of the Thief franchise is a great story, a dark setting and focus on _avoiding_ action rather than looking for it.

If they want to make a game that is of high artistic standard - then atleast I will buy it, but of course they will make less net profit.

In any case, trying to mix these both types of making a game will only lead to a product that fails doing any of the two.

In any case I will not repeat what I did with Thief DS - raising my hopes. I will wait until I see the finished product, and I'll happily give input during it's development, until I say whether or not it is good.

I will just say this. If you on the negative end of an x-axis has a remake of Thief 2 and on the positive part have Assassin's Creed Thief style - I'd rather have a game on the negative end of the axis.

[Judith]

I've been with the Thief series since it all began, but I think that I actually spent most of my time with... T3 editor I'm not a purist then, I guess.

I like what Apprentice said about making "Thief 2.5". If it's supposed to be the fourth installment, then folks from EM will actually have to think what to do to redefine this game. What you have and what you'll add to the legacy.

So, if you'd like to change things - do it, but do it in a convincing manner. I think that even some hardcore purists will appreciate your efforts if you have a strong vision of what this game is supposed to be. And the audience will see that you changed much, but you did it well, with style.

Actually, instead of listening what every fan here has to say, I'd rather see you cooperating with some of ex-LGS employees. For instance: in my opinion having Terri Brosius as a "Thief Lore Consultant" would give EM team much better insight of this universe and a great inspiration when it comes to a game plot.

[Demtor]

One of the biggest concerns for me is what they'll do with Garrett.

For one, If he isn't in the next game I'll be very disappointed. I could get over it with good writing but for now I'll assume he'll be in it in some capacity.

However, if they want to change the character, or have him do new things and innovate the concept... give us a reason! Put it in the story. Characters can change, just explain why.

Does anyone else remember in the early days of Thief Deadly Shadows they had redone art with Garrett on a rooftop, to show him wielding a sharp dagger for absolutely no reason? The first version with just him looking like a bad ass as usual, was fine. Then they went and tacked on a sharp pointy glowing knife thingy. Why? He's a thief, not a killer.

The name of the game alone made no sense story wise. No mention of "3" anywhere. Instead they named it something as generic as "Deadly Shadows." If you look back at T1 and T2, both titles were directly tied in to the story. Dark Project = Pagan ritual focused. Metal Age = Mechanized Religion. Deadly Shadows? How very silly. Unless they were maybe referring to the Keepers, but even then... they don't kill people.

I think those were the first few (of many) things Ion Storm Austin decided to do in order to appeal to the console crowd unfamiliar with the Thief franchise. Your average xbox tweener doesn't want to try a game where killing isn't the focus, lets trick them with slick images and a "deadlier" marketing angle.

Garrett as a character suffered because of it, imo. As neither choices made any sense to the story.

If thats the direction they wanted the character to go, fine, but they should have given reasoning behind it. Included explanations for why Garrett has a dagger and likes to kill people now. I'm all for change, just give it some background and thought to why there is change in the first place.

tl;dr Being innovative for innovations sake, is bullocks. If you want to make Garrett in to something drastically different, you better have a good reason as to why.

^^^ Judith says it well, have a strong vision with the changes and convince us with quality.

[DarthEnder]

I'm gonna go with Purist for Thief 4.

Mainly, I think what would be best is to just have everything that made Thief 2 great, made using current gen technology.

Innovation is great, but it's been too long since the penultimate Thief game was released. Save the risky innovation for Thief 5.

[Apprentice101]

I dont think i explained it in very elaborate manner. For one, yes i want the best of gameplay and features taken from Thief 1 and 2, even 3. There were good moments that Thief IV could benefit from those installments. I mean, i just dont exactly want as some people say Thief II (or whichever) in the new skin. It has to evolve in some ways(story/gameplay/mechanics). And exactly it might be also the ways that it was not well implemented in previous installements. For example, there are posts that say - dont make freeroaming city. Im hardcore fan and i saw shortcomings of such idea, maybe it wasnt implemented the best way before. BUt it doesnt mean, that its bad in itself. Therefore, radical approach even tries to deny things that MIGHT be good in Thief IV.
To sum up, yes take the best features of previous installments, AND yes please make something new which could ADD to the story/world/gameplay as long as it doesnt break the overall Thieving FEEL and experience.

And guys, we dont have to flood entire forum with same rant i mentioned in my first post. I think developers are ALREADY aware of our worst expectations

[Nate]

I hope the new title is 'Thief: Deadlier Shadows'...kidding!

[Direlord]

i'm more of a purist myself but i will accept innovation if I feel it doesn't hurt the overall feeling of the game i remember.

While i want Garrett as the main character voiced by the same actor if they put a story of someone else as the main with Garrett as the mentor or given a cameo apperance I wouldn't mind as much if it makes sense.

For the consoles i don't mind it being made the problem is the concessions the PC people must suffer with because of it. The 3rd person view the control scheme the excess loading etc. Thats what we don't want to see. Make the game PC first then if it is successful enough port it to consoles. However in this day and age i think most companies when given the choice will do both at once to appeal to the bigger market.

I am more of a purist with no climbing gloves give back rope arrows, keep it 1st person, this is a stealth sneaking game Garrett is not an assassin. Keep the setting and the darkness of the city.

There are many things i would like to see improved upon though that would require innovation especially stuff that maybe was too hard to do or impossible with the tech years ago. I'd like to see smarter AI for all guards if i leave every door open they check it out, if i come in from the rain i will drip for awhile. Noticing guards missing who really should be there. Stealth where if i'm in a dark doorway but there is a raging fire behind me i'm still unseen even though i have a massive silouette (sp)

[StalinsGhost]

How about hardcore purists that thought Thief I caught the "essence" of Thief better than Thief II?

[Goliath The Thief]

Originally Posted by StalinsGhost

How about hardcore purists that thought Thief I caught the "essence" of Thief better than Thief II?

Yeah, like me!

[Abelo]

I kinda tried to do something like this post earlier, but without much success. I feel everyone in these foruMs has a way more conservative attitude towards Thi4f than Eidos Montreal is surely having; which means that there will be A LOT of people disappointed at release if they don't change their minds.

Market has changed, games nowadays are way more expensive than in 1998, and they can take less risks. This means Thi4f needs to be appealing to thousands of people who had never played previous Thief games. That's why I think we, as fans, should be opening our minds, and not judging Thi4f as compared to previos Thieves, but for being fun in its own merits.

We are going to have to accept a tradeoff for the game's viability in modern, multiplatform market, and that's a fact, so we better open up our minds and, accepting some streamlining, judge Thi4f for being an awesome game in itself. Think that Deadly Shadows isn't considered a failure for "consol-izing" the formula, but for just doing it wrong. It can be done well. In reference to Akhanari's comment about a mix between art and mass market, just think in products like The Dark Knight.

Most of the people who didn't really like games like BioShock or Fallout 3 are the ones who compared them to the previous System Shocks/Fallouts, which is a sure-to-disappoint way to judge the sequel. Nearly everyone who hadn't played the previous ones, loved the sequels because they were awesome games by themselves. So, time for us fans to switch to a more constructive mode, and help Eidos Montreal forward in the depelopment instead of limiting them in every possible way. Many of the things begged to keep in T4 in these forums are NOT core Thief values, so those comments don't really help.

As a bottom line, I must say there are few chances they are trying to do just a Thief II with better graphics, and I think it's a wise way to approach a modern sequel, as much as I loved T2.

[Tiptoe]

Originally Posted by Demtor

I think those were the first few (of many) things Ion Storm Austin decided to do in order to appeal to the console crowd unfamiliar with the Thief franchise. Your average xbox tweener doesn't want to try a game where killing isn't the focus, lets trick them with slick images and a "deadlier" marketing angle.

Speaking as one of those people who was unfamiliar with the Thief franchise, I have to say their marketing worked. I bought Thief: Deadly Shadows and was completely blown away by it, it's the best gaming experience I've ever had. I loved it!

But I would never have bought it if it hadn't been for the third person view. I have never played the first two Thief games and sadly, I never will, because the first person view makes me seasick.

So all I'm begging for is the option to play in third person view, like the Deadly Shadow game.

[Apprentice101]

Originally Posted by Abelo

I kinda tried to do something like this post earlier, but without much success. I feel everyone in these foruMs has a way more conservative attitude towards Thi4f than Eidos Montreal is surely having; which means that there will be A LOT of people disappointed at release if they don't change their minds.

Market has changed, games nowadays are way more expensive than in 1998, and they can take less risks. This means Thi4f needs to be appealing to thousands of people who had never played previous Thief games. That's why I think we, as fans, should be opening our minds, and not judging Thi4f as compared to previos Thieves, but for being fun in its own merits.

We are going to have to accept a tradeoff for the game's viability in modern, multiplatform market, and that's a fact, so we better open up our minds and, accepting some streamlining, judge Thi4f for being an awesome game in itself. Think that Deadly Shadows isn't considered a failure for "consol-izing" the formula, but for just doing it wrong. It can be done well. In reference to Akhanari's comment about a mix between art and mass market, just think in products like The Dark Knight.

Most of the people who didn't really like games like BioShock or Fallout 3 are the ones who compared them to the previous System Shocks/Fallouts, which is a sure-to-disappoint way to judge the sequel. Nearly everyone who hadn't played the previous ones, loved the sequels because they were awesome games by themselves. So, time for us fans to switch to a more constructive mode, and help Eidos Montreal forward in the depelopment instead of limiting them in every possible way. Many of the things begged to keep in T4 in these forums are NOT core Thief values, so those comments don't really help.

As a bottom line, I must say there are few chances they are trying to do just a Thief II with better graphics, and I think it's a wise way to approach a modern sequel, as much as I loved T2.

Abelo, i almost agree to all of your post. Thing is, we have to take best things from the past, but we dont have to let good things go away even if they are new. Imo, there are 2 moments here.
1) If developers capture the "pure essence" from all previous installments, most noticably THief I and Thief II, but altogether they bring needed innovations (like super-modding tools, persistent world, superior AI, and MAYBE but not necesserily some multiplayer mode, improve features from previous installments like much better city from Thief 3) that would even increase the atmosphere of the game has, therefore the game can be big hit in the way that it attracts more hardcore fans.

And 2) If the game is big hit (i dont mean that it must please all litlle kids, but that it would establish bigger hardcore fanbase), the community would increase more therefore more Thief franchise installments/expansions would follow.

[Abelo]

If they asked me, I'd be glad if their design plan consisted in writing down all the DEFINING features of the Thief saga, and take a radical approach like using that piece of paper as an embryo to redesign the saga from scratch, not even looking back to the solutions taken in previous Thieves. I don't care about minor stuff, like how pagans talk and the climbing gloves; it's the core idea of Thief what has potential to be the best game ever, just the previous games have had their flaws and never reached its fullest potential.

[Apprentice101]

Im begining to understand that nothing can change some fans here. It reminds me of dragons from a story, where they would guard their treasure EVERY single piece of it, no matter how invaluable it would be. While they would have all the treasure even if its old and rusty, they would be very happy. But if somebody stole some rusty treasure, and even replaced it with much more artistic/valuable item - THEY would become terrible enemies and decimate all around them. Funny and sad.

P.S. Biggest laugh even would be if developers listened to all the stubborn fans how to get the BEST direction towards ultimate goal. And then those SAME fans would whine and brag how bad expansion was. And Thief IV would be so unsuccesful that any THief sequel wouldnt ever follow. I would repeat same words FUNNY and althogether VERY SAD. But thats how it usually is.

[DarthEnder]

If Thief 4 was just Thief 2 with new graphics and a different story and missions, I wouldn't complain.

Considering every place where T3 tried to innovate over 1 and 2 made the game worse, I'd rather they just got it right.

[GmanPro]

There is a right way to innovate. Notice how Thief 2 was subtly different from Thief 1? And in a good way?

THAT'S THE KIND OF INNOVATION THIEF 4 NEEDS TO IMPLEMENT!

[Dia1]

Originally Posted by Apprentice101

Im begining to understand that nothing can change some fans here.

I think you're forgetting one important fact here; EVERYONE has the right to his/her own opinion. If their opinion happens to differ from yours then, Oh Well, such is life. To adopt an attitude of disdain or superiority just because you feel your opinion is the correct opinion to have shows a serious lack of tolerance. Okay, so you've been playing Thief since it first came out; good for you. Do you feel that qualifies you to sit in judgement of other people's opinions? I sure don't. I don't think it should matter how long any of us have been playing the Thief games; the important thing is that we all love them and we're here for open discussion regarding the upcoming T4.

All the Taffers here are obviously lovers of the Thief games or we wouldn't be here, right? So what if some fans want EM to retain as much of the TDP & TMA ambience, environment, graphics, textures, architecture, sound, gameplay, etc.; or if some fans want EM to 'modernize' Thief. Like I said, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Just because theirs may differ from yours doesn't make them automatically wrong.

As far as fans being repetitive in every thread, if it bothers you then just skim past what you consider a repetitive post (or thread). It's bound to happen with so many Thief fans congregating in the same place almost simultaneously. As far as I can see, you're not a moderator or an admin and really don't have the right to start dictating to others regarding what they can or cannot post in these forums. Ease up a little, why don't you?

P.S. I agree with you Gman.

[DarthEnder]

For me, Thief 2's innovation was mostly taking ideas that most players didn't like from Thief 1(such as undead levels, etc.) and cutting them out. Thief 2 took the idea of a thief, and purified it even further from what was in Thief 1.

[AntiMatter_16]

Originally Posted by DarthEnder

If Thief 4 was just Thief 2 with new graphics and a different story and missions, I wouldn't complain.

Considering every place where T3 tried to innovate over 1 and 2 made the game worse, I'd rather they just got it right.

Thief 3 had some poorly executed innovation, but also seemed to cut a lot of features.
The equipment for Thief 3 was essentially the same, but with climbing gloves replacing rope/vine arrows.

In terms of items, Thief 3 seems lacking... Oil Flasks were added, Gas mines evolved into gas grenades and the lockpicks became integrated into new lockpicking system, which actually was pretty innovative. But this is where things change...
Exploding mines, speed potions, breath potions, healing fruit (and edible food), frogbeast eggs, scouting orbs, invisibility potions, slowfall potions, and flares - all removed

In terms of Gameplay, Thief III was somewhat lacking, and suffered from consolitis.
The user interface/inventory was a serious pain to navigate. First person mode was really screwed up. Movement wasn't fluid and didn't feel right. Jumping looked especially bad in first person. The loading zones also really screwed things up. It really made the Thief III world seems small in comparison to the other games. Swimming was completely removed, and Garrett's amazing acrobatic abilities were kind of absent. And you couldn't eat food anymore. Why remove a simple feature that lets the player interact more with their environment?

Overall, it seems that Thief III suffered from poorly implemented innovation, but it also suffered from a LACK of innovation and features.

I can tell you right now that Thief 4 isn't going to feel right at first because the Thief 'world' won't be the same one you remember and feel nostalgic about. But it will grow on you. The Thief 3 world grew on me as I progressed through it, but that sad abortion of an engine it ran on often got in the way of the immersion. But hopefully, the new engine will be well developed and polished, and that won't be a problem.

[DarthEnder]

I actually liked Oil Flask and Holy Water Flasks. And T3's Lockpicking was an improvement.

Everything else though was a step back.

[GmanPro]

First person mode was really screwed up. Movement wasn't fluid and didn't feel right. Jumping looked especially bad in first person.

I was going to mention this in my other thread and lump it together with Third Person. Because I think the reason first person felt clunky was because your 3d model was still there moving around ... with a camera in front of its face.

[Neb]

Originally Posted by GmanPro

I was going to mention this in my other thread and lump it together with Third Person. Because I think the reason first person felt clunky was because your 3d model was still there moving around ... with a camera in front of its face.

To give it credit though, it was the best shopping trolley simulator I've ever played.

[Abelo]

If Thief 4 was just Thief 2 with new graphics and a different story and missions, I wouldn't complain.

Oh, I think you would. When you play T1/T2 nowadays, you enter in a "it's a 10 year-old game" tolerance mode, which means that tons of small flaws are unconsciously accepted by your mind that knows it's the same game you played time ago. If you suddenly played the same with nowadays graphics in a new game, you would notice all those flaws and would cry EM "why the hell you haven't improved that?". IA would feel weird as well as lots of tiny old design decissions, and even controls would feel clunky by today's standards.

And if that would happen to you, long-time Thief fan, imagine what would happen to anyone who hasn't played before. That's why you must accept a broad redesign, as long as the game keeps the core things: the huge city sense of environment, the medieval steampunk atmosphere and plot, the awesome feeling of being a thief with its strenghts and weaknesses, the bow as a main weapon with its array of arrows, and that's pretty much it. The rest can be well done if EM is up to the task or can be badly done as Ion Storm did, but you have to admit that all the small flaws in T3 did not fail for betraying the core values of the saga, which seems to be what has made every fan so attached to conservatism, but just because they were poorly designed.

Design them well and you have a great sequel.

[Petike the Taffer]

If you don't mind, here's my little "rant" on the subject (posted previously on the TTLG forums) :

Love the re-vamped new logo, it's funny (though a simpler Thief IV would be enough).

Well, 4 is supposed to be a lucky number (and it's also my official lucky number) - so I hope they don't butcher the fourth installment.

It's great to see them communicating with the fans of the series, I just really hope they'll take their time and won't needlessly rush the game's development. TDS suffered from a rushed release and it would be a shame to repeat the same mistake.

As far as gameplay and gear go, I'm the proponent of keeping it not overly gadgetized (like in TDP and TDS) and blending all the good elements of all three installments (emphasis on more realistic than magical gear, appropriate difficulty and challenging gameplay, high-quality production values for everything - graphics, dynamic lighting, in-game physics, sound and voice acting, atmospheric ambient music, a good story, etc.)


What I would like to see :
- Swimmable water
- All of the traditional thievy arrows (including rope and vine arrows for climbing)
- Keep the climbing gloves as a faster, but less versatile alternative to the arrows
- Body awareness, optional switching between first and third person, wall-flattening, lockpicking, improved sound distribution and NPC AI like in TDS (they were and still are superb even after all these years) - just more refined
- Light gem and compass merged into one device like in TDS, game screen HUD-less while all weapons and items are undeployed
- Heavily improved physics (with much greater enviromental interaction and better NPC ragdolls)
- Only one potion type, please ! (Health potions, nothing of that other crap)
- Scouting orbs deserve a comeback (this depends on whether you'll return into Garrett's shoes, ditto for the mech-eye), a corner-persicope could be a fine replacement for these
- Simple "flask gadgets" kept and expanded upon : Where's the glue flask, damnit' ?! Oil and holy water is just not enough...
- Hand-thrown bombs and mines, both flash and gas
- If it isn't too hard to code, choosing either the sword or dagger and bow or crossbow would be nice while gearing up for a mission
- Improve and expand upon the "open city" and "doing favors for factions" idea from TDS
- Reasonable and tasteful city architecture and skin designs for various NPCs, not too stylized and cartoonish, more on the realistic and gritty side, more of the medieval (TDP, TDS) than Victorian (TMA) feel
- Make the levels appropriately expansive, but also filled with details - too big and bland levels are a real bore and travelling through them gets seriously tedious (some of the TDP and TMA levels suffered because of this)
- A respect for already existing creature and faction designs, but also attempting to make them look new and cool (I want burricks, craymen and Kurshies to show up again )
- A good and thrilling story (doesn't need to be award-winning stuff, just make the character dialogue and the plot believable and not too over-the-top)
- They should hire Eric Brosius for the music and sound department, or at least someone as talented as him
- Release the game with a user-friendly enough level editor