First person, third person or both

[Vae]

Yes, please do...

[Psychomorph]

Originally Posted by ⓣⓐⓕⓕⓔⓡ

Don't worry, we're talking about people who have been on the Thief forum since 2002 who have nothing better to do than flame anyone who disagrees with *their* vision of the game. I love it really, love to see the same egos circle-jerk each other with posts so rich in intelligence as this;

Good one.

Originally Posted by ⓣⓐⓕⓕⓔⓡ

Veterans, or should I say, "zealots" and all that... I hope they remove water and rope arrows just so I can see these guys have an aneurysm.

Lol!

[xAcerbusx]

Originally Posted by Vae

Yes, please do...

The current page started with me explaining why third person is viable and in no way detracts from an atmospheric, immersive Thief experience.

As for why it's preferable: I may as well explain why my taste in music is preferable.

The point of my post wasn't to show why it's preferable. That's a matter of taste. The point of my post was to show why it's viable and why it won't break the first-person mode. And furthermore, that all statements to the contrary are absolutely knee-jerk and regressive.

As for why someone would personally prefer to play a game in third person, I can only offer my own personal opinion. I prefer seeing my character. I don't like first-person games. It's overdone. It was original in 1998 when Thief was made because we still had yet to see the launch of a trillion Halo / Killzone / Haze clones that now flood the market. Third-person, I would argue, allows the player to bond more closely with the character because they can actually see who it is that they are playing as. Not being able to see your character is just as unrealistic as looking down and not seeing your character's feet. It's unrealistic and ruins immersion as surely as Deadly Shadows' jerky movement hurt the experience. You asked for why it was preferable. There you have it. I like art design. Playing as 'Disembodied head with a floating hand at the corner of the screen #6847688' doesn't appeal to me.

[Platinumoxicity]

Originally Posted by xAcerbusx

Not being able to see your character is just as unrealistic as looking down and not seeing your character's feet. It's unrealistic and ruins immersion.

...No it strenghtens immersion because normally when you look down at the floor you don't pay attention to the presence of your feet because they're a part of your body. When was the last time you purposefully checked whether your feet exist or not by looking down, honestly not knowing whether they're there or not? You know the character has feet, so you don't need visual proof that it has feet.

In games where the body is visible, it's possible to block parts of your vision with your own body parts, like legs or shoulders. And you don't really have ingame muscles to move your legs away with absolute control and precision. That is something that breaks immersion, because suddenly there is one thing that the character does but that the player can't control. IRL everytime you try to look at something where your legs might be on the way, you subconsciously move them aside or change the position of your head and eyes without realizing it. Because 1st person game characters don't have the muscles that subconsciously prevent your body parts from blocking your view, the invisibility of those body parts is the next best thing.

[Loup]

Originally Posted by xAcerbusx

The current page started with me explaining why third person is viable and in no way detracts from an atmospheric, immersive Thief experience.

As for why it's preferable: I may as well explain why my taste in music is preferable.

The point of my post wasn't to show why it's preferable. That's a matter of taste. The point of my post was to show why it's viable and why it won't break the first-person mode. And furthermore, that all statements to the contrary are absolutely knee-jerk and regressive.

As for why someone would personally prefer to play a game in third person, I can only offer my own personal opinion. I prefer seeing my character. I don't like first-person games. It's overdone. It was original in 1998 when Thief was made because we still had yet to see the launch of a trillion Halo / Killzone / Haze clones that now flood the market. Third-person, I would argue, allows the player to bond more closely with the character because they can actually see who it is that they are playing as. Not being able to see your character is just as unrealistic as looking down and not seeing your character's feet. It's unrealistic and ruins immersion as surely as Deadly Shadows' jerky movement hurt the experience. You asked for why it was preferable. There you have it. I like art design. Playing as 'Disembodied head with a floating hand at the corner of the screen #6847688' doesn't appeal to me.

ok acerbus. You prefer looking at your character and feel that it breaks immersion when you can't see the feet. Now that you actually presented some arguments. I don't agree that you bond with the character by seeing it. The feeling that you're doing what the character is doing is in my opinion a great way to make you bond with the char since it will feel like you are sharing the character's experience. What a lot of games and movies do in dramatic or scary scenes? They change the perspective to first person so that you see the horrors out of the characters point of view. Another important aspect is that you don't want to see Garrett. What made him so great in TDP and TMA was the fact that you never got a really good look at him. I've said it before but one of the main aspects of thief as a concept is that it is thriving on mysteries.The factions, most of the characters, the city it self and even your equipment are all shrouded in mystery and they remains interesting as long as you are not given to many pieces of the puzzle. Demystifying something is like shoot your self in the foot. Getting a good look at Garrett from the first second of gameplay is a horrible choice of design out of this perspective.

Even you acerbus can't say that thief would be interesting if you know all there is to know about the various aspect of the universe or the characters?

Apart from this aesthetic choice in which everyone has the right to have their own opinion there is actual game design issues which people has stated earlier. What about:

- Clunky or exploitive mechanics when looking around corners
- problems when it comes to tight crawlspaces
(no oblivion and morrowind didn't have those)
- Having to introduce crosshair and nerfing archery because of the reduced ability to aim at long distances.
- Designing the levels in a oversized fashion to make up for the reduced ability to spot details
- Giving various actions animations which reduce your control of the character

Meet those arguments and contribute to the discussion.

[esme]

Originally Posted by xAcerbusx

...The point of my post wasn't to show why it's preferable. That's a matter of taste. The point of my post was to show why it's viable and why it won't break the first-person mode. And furthermore, that all statements to the contrary are absolutely knee-jerk and regressive....

simply having a third person view won't affect the game I agree, however designing for a third person view affects first person gameplay for the reasons I outlined earlier (clunky, crude objects and a tight spaces that are laughably big) and similarly designing the game for primarily first person view will affect third person gameplay as you will find that you will continually have to shift to first person view to deal with the detail

so it's not really a question of should we have first and third person views, it's a pretty safe bet we'll have both

it's more of a question of which viewpoint should the game be designed for

my preference is to design for first person view as this will give us the fine detail, smaller objects and tighter spaces

[Oon Kuka Oon]

In my opinion, the game should be done 1st person. If the devs want to offer 3rd person for the 0.01% of potential buyers who want it, they can create 3rd person patch. This is only way to offer 3rd person and not corrupting 1st person.

[xAcerbusx]

Originally Posted by Loup

- Clunky or exploitive mechanics when looking around corners
- problems when it comes to tight crawlspaces
(no oblivion and morrowind didn't have those)
- Having to introduce crosshair and nerfing archery because of the reduced ability to aim at long distances.
- Designing the levels in a oversized fashion to make up for the reduced ability to spot details
- Giving various actions animations which reduce your control of the character

Meet those arguments and contribute to the discussion.

- Arguably, being able to see around corners ahead of time adds to, rather than diminishes, the tension of infiltration. Besides, it's just an extension of the concept that Looking Glass put into the game to begin with: The lean.

- No problem with tight crawlspaces can't be fixed by switching to first-person on the fly. I don't understand why this is such an issue. I prefer third person, but I'm not going to start peeing vinegar if a crawlspace gets tight and I have to switch. Also... the sudden change of camera angle changes the mindset of the player, making those segments feel even more claustrophobic than they would if the entire game was first-person. (And yes, Oblivion had those. Someone never played the Mehrunes' Razor quest... where you swam through cave tunnels no bigger than three or four feet across to find the thing. didn't break the game... and it won quite a few Game of the Year awards despite offering both viewpoints.)

- Archery: As I said, just because the game offers third-person doesn't mean you have to stay in it in perpetuity. I want both viewpoints, as I said. The same principal is at work during Thief's cutscenes. Is storytelling easier to do if we remain in first-person? Or did Looking Glass decide that seeing your character during these moments was preferable? See also: Fallout 3... a shooter... with third-person mode. Also a Game of the Year, for the record. The crosshair in both Oblivion and Morrowind is optional. You can switch it off. No reason Thief can't keep exactly the same archery mechanics.

- Your argument about oversized levels was already proven wrong. Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory, Metal Gear Solid 2-4, Velvet Assassin... I could keep going. I even took the trouble of posting screenshots proving this argument wrong in the TTLG forums. Third person doesn't change a single thing about level design. And how important are tight crawlspaces to Thief, anyways?I have played and beaten every game in the series, and I can only think of a handful of situations where being in a tight crawlspace was mandatory. Actually, Splinter Cell: Double Agent had more of those moments, now that I think about it... crawling in air vents (The camera shifts to third-person over-the-shoulder perspective, for the record)... crawling under tanks during battle. All in third. Without once taking control from the player.

- Action animations? Like what? I don't recall the game taking control from me at any point during Thief: Deadly Shadows. What about third-person would out-and-out require you to have control taken from you. Nothing that wasn't already present in the series. When Garrett nocks an arrow to his bow... are you actually reaching around your back for the bow and arrow... or does the game do that for you? Thin... thin argument there, man. You seem to be assuming that we all want the game to be Assassin's Creed. You're mistaken.

Well, there you are. Contributing to the discussion. This is my last post in here, though. I'm tired of this merry-go-round already.

[Platinumoxicity]

Originally Posted by xAcerbusx

Third person doesn't change a single thing about level design.

Then why are the small apartments of the poor in TDS twice as tall and more spacious than the ones in T1 and T2? Why are switches and items larger? Why is everything so huge? Why are there no small hidden items in small cramped places that you could only detect by looking very closely?

[xAcerbusx]

Wow. Cite specific examples and prepare to have them ignored in favor of vague suppositions about which game in the series I prefer (Thief II, for the record. not Deadly Shadows) or dwelling on one off-handed statement.

You sure are proving people wrong about the whole 'knee-jerk' thing.

[Loup]

Originally Posted by xAcerbusx

- Arguably, being able to see around corners ahead of time adds to, rather than diminishes, the tension of infiltration. Besides, it's just an extension of the concept that Looking Glass put into the game to begin with: The lean.

So you mean that by being able to see around corners, without the character, which you are controlling need to peek around the corner for you to see"adds" to the the tension?
You don't even need to peek around the corner risking to be seen to know what is around the corner How is that even possible? It is out of the characters point of view. It adds further to the feeling that you are a puppet master who leads your puppet. "don't let the guards see the puppet!!!" Please specify further what you mean because if the above stated interpretation is correct I don't really know what to say.

- No problem with tight crawlspaces can't be fixed by switching to first-person on the fly. I don't understand why this is such an issue. I prefer third person, but I'm not going to start peeing vinegar if a crawlspace gets tight and I have to switch. Also... the sudden change of camera angle changes the mindset of the player, making those segments feel even more claustrophobic than they would if the entire game was first-person. (And yes, Oblivion had those. Someone never played the Mehrunes' Razor quest... where you swam through cave tunnels no bigger than three or four feet across to find the thing. didn't break the game... and it won quite a few Game of the Year awards despite offering both viewpoints.)

Now here you are actually contributing! Welcome to the discussion acerbuser! Changing between two views can indeed enhance the feeling of claustrophobia and is a possible solution for this aspect of tight spaces.

- Archery: As I said, just because the game offers third-person doesn't mean you have to stay in it in perpetuity. I want both viewpoints, as I said. The same principal is at work during Thief's cutscenes. Is storytelling easier to do if we remain in first-person? Or did Looking Glass decide that seeing your character during these moments was preferable? See also: Fallout 3... a shooter... with third-person mode. Also a Game of the Year, for the record. The crosshair in both Oblivion and Morrowind is optional. You can switch it off. No reason Thief can't keep exactly the same archery mechanics.

About archery, yes, changing from third person to first person when drawing the string is a possible solution. But we need to question the choice of design. My feeling about it is that it will feel quite annoying changing between the perspectives. Then, the first person view might toggle as long as you have the bow drawn instead of every time you draw the string.
The cutscenes is a completely irrelevant thing to bring up since they have nothing to do with the gameplay and game mechanics. Finally you argue that thief 4 should keep the archery mechanics so then I figure you don't think third person supported by a crosshair is a good design, which I agree upon.

- Your argument about oversized levels was already proven wrong. Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory, Metal Gear Solid 2-4, Velvet Assassin... I could keep going. I even took the trouble of posting screenshots proving this argument wrong in the TTLG forums. Third person doesn't change a single thing about level design. And how important are tight crawlspaces to Thief, anyways?I have played and beaten every game in the series, and I can only think of a handful of situations where being in a tight crawlspace was mandatory. Actually, Splinter Cell: Double Agent had more of those moments, now that I think about it... crawling in air vents (The camera shifts to third-person over-the-shoulder perspective, for the record)... crawling under tanks during battle. All in third. Without once taking control from the player..

Being in tight crawlspaces is optional, a possible way of entry, exit etc. Which adds to the various ways to tackle a mission.

Tight level design can be countered as you said earlier by letting the camera switch to first person or hover over the shoulder when needed and may counter the situation where staring at the characters ass or neck because it covers most of your line of sight. But this is also a constant switching back an forth if you reach cramped areas. This is something which I personally feel is a bad game design and is annoying as hell. But when it works it it comes down to the question of aesthetics and is by that reason not worth arguing about.

- Action animations? Like what? I don't recall the game taking control from me at any point during Thief: Deadly Shadows. What about third-person would out-and-out require you to have control taken from you. Nothing that wasn't already present in the series. When Garrett nocks an arrow to his bow... are you actually reaching around your back for the bow and arrow... or does the game do that for you? Thin... thin argument there, man. You seem to be assuming that we all want the game to be Assassin's Creed. You're mistaken.

Well, there you are. Contributing to the discussion. This is my last post in here, though. I'm tired of this merry-go-round already.

Who are "all those which I think want another ass-creed"? Yes I was thinking about ass-creed, but also about prince of persia and Outcast (which you still have failed to mention which is probably one of the best third-person games ever done). Third person games is generally slower in responses and feedback because of every action is linked to animations. I'm not saying that this is bad in any of the earlier mentioned games, but in thief a slow feedback is simply not a good choice of design when dealing with the situations in general thief-gameplay. Your want to be able to act quick and by reflex. Having a non responsive feedback which you have to take into account when you need to act quick is nothing but frustrating. This is also linked to Garrett as a character which is supposed to feel nimble and quick on his feet. This can be achieved in third person but when not giving a third person character enough animations or not enough time to finish an animation, it feels jerky and it does not seem to follow the rules of basic physics. Great examples is going from standing still to running in morrowind, or the way the characters are moving in combat in Deus Ex. So my arguments are not thin, but I got to hand it to you that the topic was not very well stated.

It's a shame that you stop posting by the time that you are starting to actually contribute. I also think that you are taking things personally in a very childish manner. I'm not attacking you, but encouraging you to develop your thoughts instead of throwing angry conclusions around you.

[Namdrol]

Spandex grow a pair of balls and either stop making veiled insults or come right out and say who you mean.
Why shouldn't the game be firstperson?
The whole 3rd person is more immersive is quite an odd argument.
I'd rather do something than watch someone else do it.

[ToMegaTherion]

VtM: Bloodlines is a really immersive game that happily switches between the perspectives depending on what is more sensible, so that particular concern can be overcome. There are also lots of tight spaces where the third-person camera decides to be effectively first-person for a while. It's not perfect (it's usually better to switch to first person in such areas) but it isn't particularly bad, especially given the overall general technical scrappiness of the game.

[Aelwe]

First person. It's the only way to truly achieve the immersion of the first two games, the feeling of actually being there kinda disappears when using third person.
*If* third person could be added without messing with general level design or with first person, then sure...why not? But sadly it isn't possible. Also, if there is a third person mode, devs might get the temptation of doing cutscenes this way, instead of using the good old "animated" style

And about body awareness: on paper usually looks like a good idea that actually adds to the immersion, but sadly I have yet to see a game that does it right. There have been some that got it almost right, but these were mostly action/fps games (Severance, Dark Messiah of M&M, Mirror's Edge, etc.); making it work for a game where stealth and movement is more important than action is much more difficult, and the devs can spend this time on other, more important things.

[Telex]

I L0L at anyone who doesn't think that 3rd person effects level design. I L0L hard.

[xAcerbusx]

Originally Posted by Telex

I L0L at anyone who doesn't think that 3rd person effects level design. I L0L hard.

I 'L0L' at a few things:

-People who use the phrase 'L0L' in a sentence. With a zero, no less

-People who use the words 'effects' and 'affects' interchangeably.

-Those who have likely never played enough third-person stealth games to judge the impact of third-person on level design, but nevertheless offer their opinions on the issue. (e.g. this entire thread)

[Psychomorph]

Originally Posted by xAcerbusx

-People who use the words 'effects' and 'affects' interchangeably.

Lol.

[glyph07]

Originally Posted by xAcerbusx

Third-person, I would argue, allows the player to bond more closely with the character because they can actually see who it is that they are playing as.

With 1st person character the player doesn't need to bond with it, because the player is actually within the character, which is the top it can be asked, in my opinion.

[esme]

Originally Posted by glyph07

With 1st person character the player doesn't need to bond with it, because the player is actually within the character, which is the top it can be asked, in my opinion.

yup

[Moi dix Mois]

Thief 4 should be in second person.
Just as soon as somebody gets a holodeck working.

[Psychomorph]

Originally Posted by Moi dix Mois

Thief 4 should be in second person.

Lol.

[Oon Kuka Oon]

Originally Posted by xAcerbusx

-Those who have likely never played enough third-person stealth games to judge the impact of third-person on level design, but nevertheless offer their opinions on the issue. (e.g. this entire thread)

It's obvious you haven't played enough Thief to see how great immersion 1st person allows, and not enough TDS to see what damage 3rd person can do.

[xAcerbusx]

Originally Posted by Oon Kuka Oon

It's obvious you haven't played enough Thief to see how great immersion 1st person allows, and not enough TDS to see what damage 3rd person can do.

Yes. By all means. Don't read my previous posts (Where I explained that Thief II is my favorite in the series). Make erroneous assumptions about my personal taste, and then cap it off with a generalization about Third-Person gaming based on one game released by a nearly-bankrupt company six years ago. Now you're thinking like a TTLG poster.

It certainly beats forming cogent arguments or backing them up with fact.

[Moi dix Mois]

Originally Posted by xAcerbusx

Now you're thinking like a TTLG poster.

What the is this?

[Oon Kuka Oon]

xAcerbusx.
So you focused on that I said you haven't played enough Thief, ignoring the point of my post. And you decided to missunderstand that I was claiming that you haven't played Thief at all.
If you don't answer to arguments, this discussion leads to nothing.

And yes there is lots of 3rd person games, but they are so different that it's difficult to properly compare them to Thief. That's why TDS is only proper example of what 3rd person does to Thief-like FPSneaker.
And you say that 3rd person wrecked TDS becouse they lacked money, wt*? Explain what they couldn't afford to make 3rd person better. And you should explain how the problems with having 3rd person can be fixed.
And it seems to me that you're also mixing things. I'm not accusing 3rd person of everything that was wrong with TDS, but indisputably 3rd person screwed up many things. If you like TMA, I presume that you think you don't like it because of 1st person, but some other things, and so your overall opinion of TMA doesn't matter when we're talking about should it be 3rd or 1st person. If you like TMA becouse of 1st person, you're idiot if you are trying to get 3rd person into Thief IV.

Are you a 5 year old child that says "I like it becouse I like it so much and I prefer it to others, and you're stupid" or are you able to make proper arguments of why Thief IV should have 3rd person included, and answer to arguments against 3rd person?