YOUR THOUGHTS & WISHES & SUGGESTIONS for T4 - General Discussion

[jtr7]

Since loading zones should never blight the Thief world ever again, a return of proper roiling blood-red liquid/mist Pagan portals should come back. To keep it canon-safe, any Pagan portals should be old and an obvious secret travel convenience with a sense of emergency about them. Of course, we shouldn't see more than two in an entire game. Dyan shouldn't suddenly be able to make them, either, and they shouldn't be found in the heart of The City--nowhere close to any of the TDS locales.

[DarknessFalls]

And I hope those pagan portals aren't just sitting there like a TDS portal... I hope u have to activate them like in T2. Some sort of puzzle.

[Hypevosa]

"To use our portals of fastsie travelings, you must first brings us the bloods of a city-man fool."

Sounds like what a pagan would want to me. That or maybe stealing some rare potted plant from the manfools... either way.

[jtr7]

It wouldn't be necessary unless it was open-world, and then they'd be necessary to cut down the boredom of traveling.

[fisherisdead]

They went and turned Splinter cell into Assassin's Creed and while AssCreed is a great game They should have kept them seperate. I have faith that you know what you're doing. At least I hope you do.

I watched a youtube video of an editor's presentation for the new splintercell game and he clearly states that die hard fans wont like it, that they took a great deal of the challenge out and introduced scripted attacks so you really don't have to play at all just move from place to play and watch the cut scenes...

At least do me a solid before you release this one. Let some die hard fans test it, let some diehard gamers test it, your testers arent gamers, they're your employees. They don't know what the F they're talking about.

Another thing, I wouldn't be offended if you followed suit with assassins creed. Don't make a clone but the free movement/go anywhere/climb anything is really great and you need to think about keeping up with the times don't you.

[jtr7]

I agree that if they want to make a Thief game they should make a Thief game and not sully the name or the franchise by only borrowing Thiefy concepts and pronouns. If they don't plan on making a game that is at least 90% unmistakable Thief, they should've just made a stealth game under another name.


Also:
http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=88483

[Yaphy]

Originally Posted by fisherisdead

...your testers arent gamers, they're your employees. They don't know what the F they're talking about.

LOL! Sorry, it was very funny said.
But you are right though. They should have a beta for the really longtime fans of Thief like esme and jtr7 (and more people of course). They can use this forum as a way to get the beta.

[jtr7]

I'm afraid just watching someone else play would turn me off playing the game for myself, since I'm not interested in a game for a game's sake, but hope for the future of official Thief, and what good and bad new Thief will bring to the forum communities. If the game ends up being a lousy Thief game, but still implements and upholds atypical FPS gaming with less gunner-, sniper-, thug-, and assassin-like violence, and explosions and mayhem overall, I will be impressed and grateful, but will still feel let down as a Thief fan. I'm already disqualified from beta-testing for many reasons, but I hope my comments on the forums have an impact for the positive, whether it's doing what I'd like to see, or not doing what I'd like to see, as long as most of us are pleased with the decision in the end. Like a lot of us have already stated...we still have the FM community for our new Thief fixes.

[Platinumoxicity]

I could be a beta tester because I actually know something abou how games work. But I don't want to spend hours and hours playing a game while constantly focusing on what's wrong with the mechanics. There should be 2 kinds of testers. Those who know what to fix and how to do it, and those who just have honest opinions about the gameplay.

[jtr7]

Do you have the minimum skills and traits required?

http://www.eidosmontreal.com/en/tester.html



Your first sentence doesn't even begin to cover the bare minimum, and your second sentence rules you out almost completely.

[Platinumoxicity]

Originally Posted by jtr7

Your first sentence doesn't even begin to cover the bare minimum, and your second sentence rules you out almost completely.

Well I didn't say I'd want to be a tester now did I? I know how testing works, I'm very good at seeing defects and I could even tell what exactly is wrong and how to fix it in the software level...

But I wouldn't want to. Especially with a game series that I'm a fan of because it would spoil it all for me. And testing is hard, very precise manual labor and I'm not the guy for a job like that. (Which is ironic since I draw with MS Paint ) You also need to be able to put yourself in the shoes of an another kind of player, and to be able to repeat some experiences from different prespectives, all while trying to see it all for the first time each time. And in the end you need to be able to put it into words so that the developers know exactly what needs to be fixed.

[jtr7]

If you wanna play that way, I said you can't be an industry game tester. You said you could, eh?

[Yaphy]

If you need so much experience and talent to be a beta tester, why is there public betas in some games?

[DarknessFalls]

Another thing, I wouldn't be offended if you followed suit with assassins creed. Don't make a clone but the free movement/go anywhere/climb anything is really great and you need to think about keeping up with the times don't you.

Keeping up with the times doesn't mean Garrett has to all the sudden be a parkour master. For thief, I believe in the Thief 2 style of movemen with some minor improvements in his abilities. I want rope arrows to be the main way to go vertical, with his mantling skills just to mainly climb up onto something. If we can wall climb all the way up a castle wall; or climb onto a window sill, up to a window frame top, to a small wooden block poking out a wall above the window, to a 2" wide ledge, to another window sill, etc. to the rooftop... I'ma be bummed. Or AssassinCreed-like running thru the city up to rooftops and across rooftops will be Fail. I might boycott the game until it hits the bargain bin.

Making Garrett a gymnast and essentially rendering rope arrows pointless would be the beginning of the end for T4, imo

[Yaphy]

There could be climbable things that stand out, like pipelines. There are lots of pipelines in Thief due to the steampunk environment. We've seen pipelines that yuo can walk on to get to locations unreachable from the grond. Why not make the pipelines climbable to? They don't need any explanation to be there because...they are everywere. They fit in the thief universe but still are easy to spot.

Another thing that follow the same category is streetlamps. If we have climbable pipelines we could have climbable streetlamps with the same animation and codes.

Just make everything pole-shaped climbable. It's a good way to make the suroundings more interactive without having it AC-everything is climbable. No climbable windows, walls, doors decorations, middle ledges and so on.

The climbable stuff should be:
Platforms. You jump up and Garrett auto-grab the ledge and pulls himself up.
Rope arrow. Just the regular rope arrow. Or maybe improved so you can swing with it.
Thin beams. Wooden planks between buildings, pipes etc. Different from regular ground because it has a balance system.
Vertical pipes. The other way to climb vertical. other then rope arrows. could be used when there is no place to atach the rope arrow.

[Platinumoxicity]

There have been many climbable pipes in fan missions.

[DarknessFalls]

Some pipes may be okay... But due to their prevalence, I'd be worried. Street lamp climbing wouldn't make much sense (why would want to climb closer to the light, and special skills are required to climb them that I kinda don't think Garrett has or should have). Realistic climbing of trees, on the other hand, would be cool.

I'm more for the special placement of vines to climb rather than having every pipe climbable. I'm just trying to avoid Garrett feeling like sticky-fingered Spiderman. I like how rope arrows make you be creative and work somewhat to get higher. The level doesn't get as exploited and it's a bigger sense of accomplishment when you find some secret nook or cranny to explore, imo.

[s guy]

Originally Posted by jtr7

Do you have the minimum skills and traits required?

http://www.eidosmontreal.com/en/tester.html



Your first sentence doesn't even begin to cover the bare minimum, and your second sentence rules you out almost completely.

Ability to work under pressure and to deadlines.

What if it's a hard game...

[Yaphy]

Originally Posted by DarknessFalls

Some pipes may be okay... But due to their prevalence, I'd be worried. Street lamp climbing wouldn't make much sense (why would want to climb closer to the light, and special skills are required to climb them that I kinda don't think Garrett has or should have). Realistic climbing of trees, on the other hand, would be cool.

I'm more for the special placement of vines to climb rather than having every pipe climbable. I'm just trying to avoid Garrett feeling like sticky-fingered Spiderman. I like how rope arrows make you be creative and work somewhat to get higher. The level doesn't get as exploited and it's a bigger sense of accomplishment when you find some secret nook or cranny to explore, imo.

Sorry but it can't be "some". If there was, how could we know wich. I can already see all the anoying times where you would think it's a climbable pipe and it isn't. I rather not have any climbable pipes.

Climbable trees is very hard to animate because the trees ain't straight and it wouldn't look good. Both Garretts animation and the leafs of the tree that up-close. But I to want it. I can allready see myself in the trees in the Pagan camp.

I don't want to feel like Ezio or Altaír from AC or spiderman as you said it. That why pipes are good for climbing. You know exactly what is climbable and not. Sure there are many pipes in Thief. But as I said. They don't need to go anywere. It could just be a way yo avoid guards other than hiding in a shadow. You could climb up on the pipe and get out of sight. After a while the piple could just change direction and go right into the wall and thus you cannot climb any further.

Streetlamps could be used as a way to hide because most streetlamps have a top of steel so the light will be redirected down on the street. After the amount of time you spend in the light while climbing you could just sit in complete darkness at the top of the lamp because the contrast between light and dark is best there. Also, people dont look up very often.
Street lamp

[Namdrol]

Originally Posted by Yaphy

...Garretts animation...

What animation? Thief is a FIRST PERSON stealth game.

[Vae]

You took the words right out out of me mouth...NO 3rd PERSON GARRETT PUPPET..........................blimey.

[Yaphy]

Originally Posted by Namdrol

What animation? Thief is a FIRST PERSON stealth game.

Oh please! You can't be serious? You still want the floating up on ladders, ropearrows and in this time trees? It's 2010! I dont wanna feel like a floating head. There should be arms grasping the thing you climb as much has when you pull yourself up a ledge. Once again I need to point out how good Mirrors Edge were at these things. It's revolutionary for the first person games to see what you do.
Mirrors Edge is much more freerunning then Thief but the main thing is that both are first person games and Thief have lot to learn from Mirrors Edge. I NEED (!) to see my body as I move around. Im not talking about animations that puts you out of control for a couple of seconds, just the basic movement that you use when you climb.
Do you want to jump up in the tree, do you want to float up in the tree or do you want to climb up in the tree?

[jtr7]

Yes, he and we are serious. By eliminating the animated body, more movement is possible, more fluid freedom of motion is possible, and the devs have a hell of a lot less to debug and build build build to make the animation fit the terrain (TDS lockpicking) or the terrain fit the animation (TDS ladders), and eliminates having no choice but to automate moves for the player. I love Thief, and the "floating" argument was never an issue with us. Quick precise and unhindered motion is greatly reduced when adding a body that needs to interact with literally millions of possible player movements, which they have no choice but to reduce to less than a hundred, creating many glitchy unrealistic movements. Adding realism means unintentionally adding even more expectation for more realism, because the devs have to fill in more an more of what the imagination (of most) does a much better job of.


Cuing the mind is more powerful and personal than something external doing the work for the mind. A play in a theatre is no less effective than a movie filled with fine details, and quite often, watching a play can be more powerful and meaningful. We want poetry of motion, is all. Distilled and refined and masterful.

[Rieknor]

I think it should be a "floating head" but also see the hands when you are in the ladders.

[Platinumoxicity]

Originally Posted by Rieknor

I think it should be a "floating head" but also see the hands when you are in the ladders.

Seeing hands on ladders is problematic because of 1 thing... There has to be a dynamic system that releases one hand from the ladder when the player turns around to look behind him on the ladder. Because you know, it hurts your neck pretty bad when you try to turn your head 360°. When in the stance of looking away from the ladder, the player can also jump off the ladder to whichever direction he wants.

And no I don't support at all the ladder climbing system that TDS had. No ability to turn and look back? No ability to get off the ladder to any other directions than on the bottom and the top?
Oh, and don't even get me started on the climbing gloves.