YOUR THOUGHTS & WISHES & SUGGESTIONS for T4 - General Discussion

[Loup]

Yeah, arrows that actually can been seen on the body. Really thought that it would be included in TDS.

[jtr7]

It's a scripting nightmare, that's why it's rarely seen, plus, if shooting an AI in the eye and not having it react realistically is absurd, seeing the arrow sticking out of the head would be more so. Yeah, it would be nice of these things were fixed, but the fact they rarely are is a major clue as to how much work it is, and how it's often better for the devs to ignore it. It's hard enough getting the AI to hold a weapon or torch, and have a key or potion on its belt. FM-makers are still struggling with those things to this day, and it hasn't improved much in the industry. Programmers are still typing code up from scratch, and that's so they understand the code inside and out. They do not take code already made and plug it in and go, they have to understand the code and spend more time seeking knowledge than making working code. Because of bugs and glitches and the never-ending stream of unforeseen consequences, the programmers are still not in a position to drag and drop much prefab code into game-building.

[tpup]

Originally Posted by Loup

That is a really great suggestion! The sheer amount of inspiration and explanations is astonishing.



This one is pretty good. It also brings up the whole concept of finding someone who has been knocked out. Should a Guard who finds another who has been blackjacked, be able to wake the blackjacked guard? Then if he would be able to do it then the victim would probably tell him what happened and they would start to search for you.

thanks
and

Originally Posted by Yaphy

If that last thing is made I really hope that someone somewere in the game sais that you can do so. It would be weird and hard if not even impossible to find out on your own that you can place a bottle of wine next to a KO'ed guard.

Well if there was the city hub feat you could probably purchase one from your equipment store or better yet buy a wine bottle from a tavern or if there was no city hub it could be purchased from the screen where you can buy equipment before the mission starts like in the originals.And another thing if the protagonist is Garrett he should overcome his amnesia problem and remember to swim and if not then well the new guy should learn to swim.

[Nate]

Hehe, they could have swimming lessons as one of Garrett's skill upgrades.....you must find a trainer and then pay them outrageous amounts of gold to learn the coveted skill. Then as you run around in the game, people will comment on your swimming abilities 'that's Garrett the Master Thief...I hear he is an excellent swimmer'....before they run off screaming for the guards.

[jtr7]

Ooo...! He could hire ol' Scaly Gomez over in Dayport Wharf, champion oyster diver, to show him some techniques and share secrets!

[Loup]

Originally Posted by jtr7

Ooo...! He could hire ol' Scaly Gomez over in Dayport Wharf, champion oyster diver, to show him some techniques and share secrets!

then EM could include lot's of random spawning shells which holds pearls, and the number of pearls you have collected can unlock Altairs outfit from ASS-CREED!

and when you have found 1000 pearls you will get the bowupgrade from TDP!

[DarknessFalls]

I'd like to see a mission in T4 that is similar to the Cetus Project level with the sub, where it's a big underground secret operation, with some swimming areas, where that cool, water-proof?, quiet, floor mat fabric can be used again. I liked that stuff. And enjoyed the the network of waterways to explore. I loved the intricate detail of having a room with cracks in the floor where the story says a key fell through it and you had to go find it. That was a good example of the type of intricate weaving off story into the level design that I'd want to see more of in T4.

[Ardanna]

2 things please don't talk about scripting I've all ready had one major computer melt down thanks to that and I've just stuck my little toe into it. When trying to work my new animations and changing cells with oblivion (so that there like morrowind.) If you could swim with garrett you people seem to be over looking the fact that if you are wet you will leave a trail. I don't think the guards are thick enough to not notice wet foot print leading to shadows. Swimming could be as much as a problem as a help and eidos would have to map the controls so that there would be a way to enter water with out making noise.

[jtr7]

No we aren't overlooking that fact. We've even suggested it. We want what the older titles did, and what we could take for granted in the older titles, to be restored and evolved forward so T4 isn't just a graphical update but an all-'round upgrade, and impresses people all over the industry, even if they don't like the general gameplay still. The older titles show things that have yet to be done in any game, and we'd like to see those things come to life in T4. We'll continue to talk about scripting, since too many people don't even consider how a lot of what they want takes work. Start with what was common in the older titles and build the world up from those pillars. We've talked about adding smell, since a lot of us realized early on while playing the games for the first time that people would smell Garrett after he'd been in the water, especially the nastier sewers vs. the aqueducts. I remember looking down and seeing I left no trail of water. Now I know why, but with today's tech, it's doable. The best reason to not include a wet trail would be if it broke the game and made it unfun, which is highly possible. We haven't only just begun to talk about this. We've discussed it off and on for a decade.


And you know what? The AIs are that thick. All the games have code for smarter AIs and they are dumb for a reason. Thief appeals only to a small percentage of gamers, and of theose gamers, only a small percentage start out being skilled enough to accomplish the missions at the higher challenge levels with the smarter AI, and during playtesting, the devs tuned the Intelligence to a level just about everyone playing the game could succeed at during the first playthrough. After playing the games enough, the set difficulty they settled on becomes easier or too easy. The scripting is there for smarter AIs, but the gameplay and making the games accessible enough will guarantee thick AI. Thief isn't about realism, and anyone who expects reality in it is just going to get cranky.

[scribeman]

I started to read through this thread and then stopped.

I just want Thief 4, plain and simple I want a game whose storyline is every bit as engaging and fascinating as the trilogy that precedes this concept. The past two years have brought a lot of dumbing-down in the gaming industry, where production seems heavily skewed to the console gamer. I understand that it's a much broader audience, but the thrill of figuring out early on what was happening was great.

So... maybe more reliance upon being stealthy and not simply stealth itself? Just keep the good work up and all will be well.

[jtr7]

Welcome, scribeman!

[Thieffanman]

Originally Posted by scribeman

I started to read through this thread and then stopped.

Don't worry. After the third or fourth page, the arguments start to get repetitive or go off on tangents.

Originally Posted by scribeman

I just want Thief 4, plain and simple I want a game whose storyline is every bit as engaging and fascinating as the trilogy that precedes this concept. The past two years have brought a lot of dumbing-down in the gaming industry, where production seems heavily skewed to the console gamer. I understand that it's a much broader audience, but the thrill of figuring out early on what was happening was great.

Agreed to the engaging storyline; it's what makes the "Thief" games so great. As for dumbing-down in the gaming industry? Unfortunately, the past ten years seemed to produce more console games that are goal-oriented instead of story-oriented: collect fifty items, unlock mega-weapon. Games like "God of War" and "Darksiders" are prime examples of that. The "Thief" games are good examples of story-driven games that require the player to think, instead of "see it, kill it, level up".

However, to ignore the console market would be just ridiculous. Consider this: as of 2000, Sony has sold 140 *million* Playstation 2 game consoles. To make the game a seller, Eidos Montreal needs to seriously consider the console market. My hope is that they make a good Thief game that works on both consoles and computers.

Originally Posted by scribeman

So... maybe more reliance upon being stealthy and not simply stealth itself? Just keep the good work up and all will be well.

Agreed.

--Thieffanman

[jtr7]

It's not ridiculous to curb the trend of dumb gamers deciding what a good game is. It's ridiculous to cater to the dumb for their money at the expense of brains and all the other gamers being left out. If T4 ends up catering to dumb-ass gamers, many of us will have no problem denying T4's validity. School textbooks are being dumbed-down to make it easier on the kids, for god's sake. There shouldn't be anything wrong whatsoever in making games that require brains, disguised as cheesy but deliciously suspenseful fun. T4 shouldn't be about catering to the mass-market, but drawing the mass-market closer to intelligent gaming. Some games are intentionally made to not be like a typical game, and that's a very good thing.

I'm not gonna care if they make money or not, unless the product is actually a Thief game and I feel at home, changes and all.

[Thieffanman]

Originally Posted by jtr7

It's not ridiculous to curb the trend of dumb gamers deciding what a good game is. It's ridiculous to cater to the dumb for their money at the expense of brains and all the other gamers being left out.

Agreed, and that's the point I was driving at: I have faith that Eidos Montreal will make a "Thief" game for both computers and consoles that will require players to think, versus making yet another goal-oriented game like so many others out there.

Originally Posted by jtr7

There shouldn't be anything wrong whatsoever in making games that require brains, disguised as cheesy but deliciously suspenseful fun. T4 shouldn't be about catering to the mass-market, but drawing the mass-market closer to intelligent gaming. Some games are intentionally made to not be like a typical game, and that's a very good thing.

Making games "require brains"-- agreed. I definitely want to see more computer and console games that require players to *think* their way around a problem, versus "see it, kill it, level up" that I mentioned earlier. Hopefully games like the "Thief" series and other games that include puzzle-solving, stealth, etc. will encourage more players to get involved in a game's story, versus games that seem to focus solely on garnering trophies, getting the mega-weapon, and leveling up.

Originally Posted by jtr7

I'm not gonna care if they make money or not, unless the product is actually a Thief game and I feel at home, changes and all.

Tell that to EM's shareholders.

--Thieffanman

[Dogar]

Originally Posted by Platinumoxicity

Then it would just be a new dev team exploiting the name of a successful series without sticking to what the game is all about. Just because you can't see how the story continues from TDS it doesn't mean that it doesn't.

I wouldn't say the game is all about Garrett. Like others have said, the story of Thief is the story of the City, and Garrett is just a part of that greater plot. I can see how Garrett's story can be continued, I just don't see why it needs to be central. TDS wrapped up his story arc nicely enough, with Garrett finally accepting his role in the prophecies. Imo it's not necessary that he be the focus of a 4th game.

Originally Posted by Loup

Which practically limits the possible protagonist to one of the keepers since where else would the kind of abilities be found? It is a possible storyline, following the chaos after the prophecies ending. But where would it lead the protagonist? And is it no more interesting to see what Garrett is going to do now that he is free from the prophecy?

Or the protagonist could be an apprentice of Garrett. In either case, I have no idea where this leads the protagonist story wise. I'm more interested in the idea in a roleplaying sense than a story sense. One of the reasons I like the idea of a fresh character is the concept of actually earning your reputation. In Thief 1, Garrett was already the Master Thief, respected by the Guilds and coveted by the Wardens regardless of the players actual competence. Wouldn't it be cool if you could start as a blank slate and slowly become a respect master by way of your actual skill in game? It would give the game a nice sense of progression, I think, and make the world seem much more responsive to your choices.

And to be honest, I think Garrett is just a little too familiar by now. After playing 3 games and a bajillion fan missions, it would be nice to have someone new to spice things up.

A main problem which follows that decision is that we no longer have a character with the sceptic approach to the world around him. What made the paranormal concepts work was Garret's scepticism. Without it they would feel rather cliché.

Which paranormal concepts do you mean? As far as undead goes, Garrett was pretty tight lipped during his forays into The Cradle and The Cathedral, and both of those places worked well simply because they were both pretty damn scary, imo.

[jtr7]

Originally Posted by Thieffanman

Tell that to EM's shareholders.

--Thieffanman

Okay. Are you a shareholder? I have no interest in giving my money away to a company. I have interest in a product I like, and will reward a company for making it because I like it, not for anything less. How odd.

Actually, I do keep telling EM exactly how I feel. If the shareholders don't get Thief, and make suggestions for changes, we're screwed.

[Platinumoxicity]

Originally Posted by Dogar

I wouldn't say the game is all about Garrett. Like others have said, the story of Thief is the story of the City, and Garrett is just a part of that greater plot. I can see how Garrett's story can be continued, I just don't see why it needs to be central. TDS wrapped up his story arc nicely enough, with Garrett finally accepting his role in the prophecies. Imo it's not necessary that he be the focus of a 4th game.

All the previous 3 games were about "not being about Garrett" because Garrett wanted to be left alone. Now that the story of the City has been finished and Garrett isn't part of that prophecy anymore, now we can finally focus on him instead of the constant potential destruction of the City. We still don't truly know Garrett, because all this time those world-saving plots have been rubbed in our faces, but not anymore. Garrett isn't the hero anymore.

[Loup]

Originally Posted by Dogar

Or the protagonist could be an apprentice of Garrett.

This is exactly what I'm talking about in my post. Plot development's which makes not the slightest sense. There is no reason why Garrett would take on a apprentice.

Everything which you learn about him in three whole games makes it clear that he only worries about his own profit and survival. How do you fit a apprentice into that picture?

In either case, I have no idea where this leads the protagonist story wise. I'm more interested in the idea in a roleplaying sense than a story sense. One of the reasons I like the idea of a fresh character is the concept of actually earning your reputation. In Thief 1, Garrett was already the Master Thief, respected by the Guilds and coveted by the Wardens regardless of the players actual competence. Wouldn't it be cool if you could start as a blank slate and slowly become a respect master by way of your actual skill in game? It would give the game a nice sense of progression, I think, and make the world seem much more responsive to your choices.

Why must the progression always be linked to a material struggle for power, money, love, etc?
Why must the game reflect your skill and achievements when it can tell us a compelling story which draws its influences from philosophical metaphors of the struggle between the old and the new? Making interesting points about fanaticism, that right and wrong is related to points of view, the possible dangerous consequences of unreflected development like in TMA. There are countless of dimensions in the plot line which make you reflect and think. Isn't that something which is much more rewarding than some material struggle and having a kewl title as "master thief"
The fact that the story is not really about the material struggle, but that it is the only thing Garrett really thinks about is the very reason why it so great.

And to be honest, I think Garrett is just a little too familiar by now. After playing 3 games and a bajillion fan missions, it would be nice to have someone new to spice things up.

We actually know very little about Garrett. The story has never really been about Garrett as much as it has been about the city. Garrett gives a dynamic perspective to what happens in the city when it stands in stark contrast to the Hammer, pagans and the keepers view.

Which paranormal concepts do you mean? As far as undead goes, Garrett was pretty tight lipped during his forays into The Cradle and The Cathedral, and both of those places worked well simply because they were both pretty damn scary, imo.

You never thought about the fact that he never reflects further about the undead since they are simply another obstacle for him. But compared it to when Constantine turns out to be the trickster. This was something which Garrett either really haven't though about and or didn't believed in. Something which is far from his current view of his current reality. Then something completely new is smacked straight in the face of this reality.
I have to say that I thought that I'd get at least something more of a reaction from him.
He was suprised, but then he got to how to cope with this new aspect of his reality. He even makes funny remarks like, "i've never stole from a 'god' before", not having the slightest feel of being out of his league, that this is just yet another creature in the world which have something which he want, which gives a huge contrast to the pagans which actually worshipped this creature as a god and the hammers view of him as a impersonation of all that is bad/evil.

[jtr7]

I don't understand being bored of the character. If you like a character in any series of books, television, movies, music, or games, why would you become bored of the characters, rather than truly being bored of the series?

[Thieffanman]

Originally Posted by jtr7

Okay. Are you a shareholder? I have no interest in giving my money away to a company. I have interest in a product I like, and will reward a company for making it because I like it, not for anything less. How odd.

No, I'm not a shareholder . You're missing my point: You had previously stated that "you didn't care if the game made money or not." I told you to tell it to EM's shareholders, because, frankly, the game *has* to make money, period. If EM decides to "dumb it down for console players" as stated in previous posts, it's possible the game will make bank, but shut out their core fans, like the people on this forum (a possible scenario, but doubtful). I'm sure that won't happen, but EM's first priority is to make a product that will *sell*, versus a product that will make one person on a forum happy.

Understand that EM is first, and foremost, a business. They have to make money on Thief for it to continue, period. We can only hope that they listen to their fans and make the product right, *and* it will sell to the masses of computer and console game players. Otherwise, jtr, we'll need to find another group of fans to make "Shadows of the Metal Age, Part II" .

Originally Posted by jtr7

Actually, I do keep telling EM exactly how I feel. If the shareholders don't get Thief, and make suggestions for changes, we're screwed.

Agreed. Usually, businesses that listen to their core fan group make a game that sells well. Just look at "Half-Life 2" and "Assassin's Creed 2" for that kind of success story. EM is taking their time on this product versus rushing something out of production. This is usually a good indicator that it will be a good product for veteran "Thief" players and newbs.

--Thieffanman

[Thieffanman]

Originally Posted by jtr7

I don't understand being bored of the character. If you like a character in any series of books, television, movies, music, or games, why would you become bored of the characters, rather than truly being bored of the series?

Agreed. Thief = Garrett, much in the same way that Gordon Freeman = the "Half-Life" series.

I suggested in a different thread that one possible scenario would be to have a game that occasionally switches out protagonists, like "Onimusha 2" did. The players will still play the main protagonist, Garrett, for most of the game, but possibly, due to storyline, play someone else for several scenes. It worked well in Onimusha 2; it could work in Thief IV too, if done right.

But still, it wouldn't be a "Thief" game without Garrett in it, period.

--Thieffanman

P.S. I think it would *rock* if they incorporated the main character from "Shadows Of The Metal Age" into Thief IV.

[jtr7]

I didn't miss your point at all. I know what I said, and like I said, I am telling everybody who reads that I'm not interested in giving any of my money for a product I don't think deserves for them to be rewarded. At this time, it's all hype and reassurances and we've been given real reasons to be concerned. We are already outnumbered and if the masses have their say I won't have any part of Thief 4, and I won't participate in this forum. I'm not a gamer, and I was so glad LGS made a game that appealed and fit like a glove for someone like myself, that the industry usually ignores. I don't want to be here if it's overrun by T4 'Tards who spit on the older titles harder and nastier than what TDS attracted on top of those more balanced who see it in context.

[Namdrol]

Originally Posted by Thieffanman

...it's possible the game will make bank, but shut out their core fans, like the people on this forum (a possible scenario, but doubtful). I'm sure that won't happen

Wish I could say the same.

Originally Posted by Thieffanman

...Understand that EM is first, and foremost, a business. They have to make money on Thief for it to continue, period...

It depends what you mean by "business".
Eidos Montreal is a development studio and their business is to make a game, not money.
It's up to the publisher to take that game and then make money.

[glyph07]

Originally Posted by jtr7

I know what I said, and like I said, I am telling everybody who reads that I'm not interested in giving any of my money for a product I don't think deserves for them to be rewarded. (...) We are already outnumbered and if the masses have their say I won't have any part of Thief 4, and I won't participate in this forum. I'm not a gamer, and I was so glad LGS made a game that appealed and fit like a glove for someone like myself, that the industry usually ignores. I don't want to be here if it's overrun by T4 'Tards who spit on the older titles harder and nastier than what TDS attracted on top of those more balanced who see it in context.

U've taken my own thoughts and given them form!

[Thieffanman]

Originally Posted by Namdrol

It depends what you mean by "business".
Eidos Montreal is a development studio and their business is to make a game, not money.
It's up to the publisher to take that game and then make money.

EM has to make a marketable product that will sell, and sell a *lot*. Development studio or publisher, they're out to make money, either way. Hence, a business.

--Thieffanman