YOUR THOUGHTS & WISHES & SUGGESTIONS for T4 - General Discussion

[jtr7]

Originally Posted by DaffyGKH

When Thief: Deadly Shadows came out, I was VERY happy. I had been waiting for a game with a roamable city, where you could just screw around when you got tired of missions. Now, I see a lot of people saying that Assassin's Creed had a roamable city too. Assassin's Creed was a good game, and yes, it DID get repetetive and possibly boring at times, but you could still go around the city and mess around when you felt like it. In Thief 3, you have the OPTION of what to do. Assassin's Creed is MUCH more linear.

If any game gets boring for you, then maybe it's time to play something else for awhile, or maybe it's time to admit that something was not made well. Thief never gets boring for a lot of us, and the games allow many ways to play as is. The missions in the older titles were bigger and more roam-able than TDS was. You could roam all over and rarely backtrack, while in TDS it was the same few places per section over and over again. It was not an improvement to tread the same buildings repeatedly versus wandering all over single maps that one could fit half of TDS within, and get different goodies in remote corners, rather than different goodies in the same chest, on the same mantle...

Originally Posted by DaffyGKH

3rd Person:
I think that the 3rd person option should stay. Sometimes the first-person view gets boring. I'm all for realistic gameplay, physics, and the like, but 1st person gets OLD. It lets you see your surroundings, and having the choice if I want to be 1st or 3rd person is something I liked.

Again, you are bored. This is not Thief's fault. Also, it's important to understand that 3rd-person screws 1st-person--every time--because it requires a body to be made and animated and tested when other things could be better polished. Third-person is an officially sanctioned cheat. Although it's possible to fix, 3rd-person usually requires the spaces to be opened up more for the camera to move around in, meaning bigger everything, which instantly cuts the tension down a notch. Thief is not a game suited for 3rd-person. It's meant to be uncomfortably tight in places. The player isn't supposed to be able to conveniently see around corners without moving. It reduces the need to use your ears, demeaning the unique use of sound that garnered Thief awards and is a fundamental and great strength. Time, money, artwork, development, design, playtesting, all to accommodate 3rd-person alone at the expense of 1st, and other aspects of design, are all unacceptable. More options mean pandering and less development of the basics that make Thief unique and unorthodox in a good rebellious way.

Originally Posted by DaffyGKH

Climbing Gloves vs. Rope Arrows:
Why can't we do both?

Climbing gloves better be done much better, but really, I'd rather have new and dynamic rope arrows. TDS was going to have both, with climbing gloves a gimmick, but with the engine problems I'll get into below, climbing gloves had to become the only means of unconventional vertical movement. Rope arrows are so much more useful and freedom giving, I'd much rather they were given full attention.

Originally Posted by DaffyGKH

City:
This is possibly my FAVORITE part of the game. You can go around the city and interact when, and with what you want to. The city wasn't huge, or easy to get lost in, but it gave you a sense of place. It sets up more plot possibilities. In Thief 1 and 2, when you just jumped mission to mission, it was fun, but you never exactly did anything BUT missions.

That's your problem. I cannot relate to that. I can spend hours not doing my mission in the older titles' maps.

Originally Posted by DaffyGKH

Swimming: You die when you drop into the water why? And why do the bodies sink when you throw them in? You should A. Be able to swim and B. Have correct water physics.

History lesson: It wasn't the devs' fault, nor a design choice, until it was discovered that the programmer guy, who was tasked with modifying the Unreal engine to be able to run a Thief game's unique features, wrote code he didn't need to, and didn't write code he was expected to, and was pulled off the task by management to go do something else before he was done, AND NO ONE TOLD THE DEVS! It was literally nightmarish and difficult. Maps needed to be redesigned after the devs spent weeks trying to build the code themselves within the botched code they were given. They couldn't do it, especially with limited time, deadlines, and budget concerns. The water in TDS isn't even virtual water, it's a texture over a kill zone because they couldn't code in the physics fast enough, and because of body-awareness and 3rd-person, they did not have the time to work out the animations and related needs. They had to stop trying, and then rework everything, leaving them much less time to create the game as a whole. By the time the release date was coming around, they were much faster at building, but they just ran out of time.

So don't think it was intentional, or that they were lazy, or anything, for not getting swimmable water, swimming, and rope arrows in. There's no reason Thief 4 won't have them, until they tell us otherwise.

Originally Posted by DaffyGKH

There could be modes that you could set on the "Difficulty Settings" page. Maybe "No Flashbombs" "No Gas Arrows" and so on. Just like checkboxes. But really, it just gives the player more choice. The point of the game is NOT to be historically correct, or to be 100% realistic. The point of the game is to have fun. The more choice you have as far as what, when, and how you can do things, is what makes the game FUN.

They need to make a solid Thief game, not a good game, a good Thief game. Hopefully great Thief. If you don't have enough choices already, then I'm not sure you fully appreciate exactly how many choices you do have already. Without TDS, you would not be saying "no Flashbombs" "no Gas Arrows", because you were given a limited number in the older titles, and could choose to buy or not with what little you had to spend. You had to be judicious with equipment, and could not hoard and hoard and hoard and become super-Garrett. Player invention, player mods, player tweaks of INI/CFG files is what you want, not the devs to spend time and resources and playtesting and artwork creation on something the games never needed, and would only cater to the bored and unskilled who cannot see the extent of the richness of the game as it stands and all the options already there.

Originally Posted by DaffyGKH

I have seen posts where people said that Thief 3 was "not completely done" or "ideas not totally implemented" and even "good ideas, but not put into the game correctly". Yet many of these people are YET to say what things in particular they are talking about.

That's a load of bull and entirely your fault, because the reasons available to you have been written out exhaustively and repeatedly.

Originally Posted by DaffyGKH

Thief 3 is how Thief should be. NOT how it should STAY however. If they could implement more choice, more environment, and maybe a little more personality around-the-city, it would probably be my favorite game. I think it should pick up a couple years after Thief 3 left off. It should pick up with the girl as Garretts apprientice, perhaps.

Strongly disagree with the first and last sentence. I can agree with the middle sentence. I want Garrett to be more like he was, not less.

Strongly disagree with you and Fred the (sigh) mediochre (not a good sign, man). TDS broke Garrett's character (along with the Pagans and Keepers), and having a frikkin' apprentice breaks it more, adds nothing of real value, disrespects Garrett and Thief and fans that like to use their brains and appreciate the multilayering of the older titles' world- and story-building, and distracts from what matters and has always mattered. These extras you want take time to brainstorm, conceptualize, decide upon, design, implement, and test, and it all has nothing to do with the character of Garrett, or The City, or an evolution of player--NOT avatar--skills and abilities. TDS was already a deviation, a downsizing, a lowering of expectation, a pandering to a slower, lazier, younger, mass market, and turned what was rich and deep into superficial fluff. The greatest aspects of TDS are mired, glossed over, or buried deep in crap for the juvenile, lazy, masses who never liked Thief anyway. And the fact the TDS fanbase doesn't see what should be plain as day is all the more reason to speak against it, until they listen for once, hear themselves, and stop giving us excuses to hand-hold them through an explanation they are too lazy to read anyway. The sooner the TDS crowd stops asking why when they have no excuses for not knowing why, the sooner we can talk about what TDS got right. Asking the same old ignorant questions, and making the same fallacious claims with little or no proof of argument, keeps us mired in the past. Can we move forward, please?


Oh, and no, EM does not have all the time they would need to make all your stuff that we "don't have to use if you don't want", and yes, all these extras would be built at the expense of other things. Time here taken from there and never recouped. You should focus on what can be done, not what requires different circumstances (allotted time, established and publicly-stated deadlines, and team-size goals and limitations).

Keep Assassin's Creed (1 and 2) out of Thief! Hanglider? What the taff?

Originally Posted by Fred

Oh and has anybody thought of multiplayer co-op

Every year for the last eleven or so years, yes. In fact, there are threads about it, right here:
http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=88498
Scroll down. There's very little chance anything you think of has not been discussed extensively already. Especially after ten years.
http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124200
http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124169

The original devs were thinking of making "Theftmatch" missions for multiplayer, but decided against it--because it's an entirely different game and the single-player experience held precedence, and they knew it was a gimmick due to industry trends at that time. The original TDP CD cover mentioned "Theftmatch" on the back of it, too. TMA was given the networking code for it, but again, not developed beyond that.

Thievery UT, made by Thief fans:
http://www.ttlg.com/FORUMS/forumdisp...ysprune=&f=131

[Namdrol]

Originally Posted by Fred the mediochre

I would also like to see Garret able to swim and have a breath system like many games, merely beacause i think it could open up some underwater sewer passages, stealing from ships and a decent place to hide for a little while if its convienient to do so. Moving too quickly would cause noise and as your breath gets lower you make more noise exiting the water.

Fred, Thief, The Deadly Shadows was the 3'rd game in a continuing series.
In the first two Garrett was able to swim, with the breath system you ask for.
There were underwater sewer systems and hidden entrances for the curious.
And in Thief, The Metal Age, you swam out to a ship.

A collection of all three Thief games has just been released.
You can get it here.

It might be wise to play all three and then think about how Thief should develop.
But welcome along anyway.

[jtr7]

A late response to one of my pet peeve statements:

Originally Posted by GepardenK

Thief 3 was a very good game, but it had some very big flaws too. The people who hated it did so because they couldn’t overlook those flaws (too bad for them).

Watch it now. That's going into myth territory. It isn't about whether it was a good game, or not. It is not about the game, but is all about a botched conclusion to a trilogy that set a number of precedents. It's a game that seems timid and humbled in proportion to the audacity and boldness of the earlier titles. It's bad Thief, regardless of how good a game it is. We've explained why we struggle to care about it, and you've apparently only seen the extreme views that the rest of us who don't like the game don't agree with, either.

You cannot overlook what is impossible to ignore, such as (pick five from the top):

Framerate issues, a stumbling drunk of an avatar, hand-holding, reduced freedom of several player movements taken for granted in the earlier titles, dumbing down for the wrong age group, watering down for too many new things, screwing 1st-person and leaning in favor of 3rd-person and body awareness (which is rectifiable these days), addition of automated movements and guiding the avatar into place while sacrificing many player freedoms to do so, contradiction in how the player controls the avatar compared to the first 2/3rds of the trilogy, breaking character/ethos/idiom in several places, not being able to jump into any mission one wants without creating a savegame first, badly hand-animated AIs instead of motion-capture, atrocious menu screens/maps/readable art in both appearance and function (should've been better than the older titles, not worse or a continuation of similar problems), embarrassingly bad and depthless Paganspeak, a gutting of the steampunk and Thief-specific tech that was always there before Karras was born (relegated to two specific spots), a light crowd of AIs wandering back and forth in the streets like parading cattle just waiting to be robbed who should all be in bed, an overpowered and overly wealthy Garrett needing few skills to succeed, botched Enforcers, city sections that don't align (one is built horizontally-flipped!), Loading Zones between districts that make you think you've only traveled 10 meters when it's miles, colored lighting that washes out all the color of the textures and is all basic colors (dark tan, magenta, yellow, blue, cyan, green, boring and monochrome), bad in-engine movies with botched urine-yellow sepia, loot glint and arrow trails and other consolish glowy things, noisemakers that really just make fireworks noises (familiar noise, too, that wouldn't fool anyone! And Keepers don't know about them?!), Faction alliances that have nothing to do with joining up to fight a common foe, too many people knowing where Garrett lives and helping themselves into his apartment, the master of the unseen recognized everywhere (no, not all the time) as Garrett and not just a thief or suspicious person, big HUD and oversized equipment, bare arms, crystals that glow and sing to call to the player so they don't have to hunt for them, zombies die with one flashbomb and not a minimum of two (while Garrett can carry way too many), bumbling and embarrassingly stupid Keepers (not just uninformed and manipulated), no idea how Gamall could be a Keeper for centuries and no one notices a series of Keepers that do not age and die as she changes skins and forms again and again, long-winded briefings and debriefings breaking the fourth wall too often, Garrett not knowing his own neighborhood nor most of the fences/stores, a big deal made out of how Carmen runs an illicit business under the Hammers' noses while several fences/stores do already before we see her, continuity errors galore, translucent hair, staring glazed eyes, unrestricted ragdoll effects (should've been an improvement, not a different kind of failure), the slapsticky slips on oil (including being able to kill Gamall five times), less scary zombies and Hammer Haunts, incredibly empty Sunken Citadel and Kurshok the devs had no time to make according to the original designs, hand-drawn maps the devs sketched for the art department to work from and instead kept as is and added clipart to the devs' chagrin, bad UI artistry all around, bump-mapping on every damned thing for no good reason, no clocks or time-telling devices or bell towers tolling (the Clock Tower has no numbers and has eight symbols instead of twelve), no numbers on most things that used to have them, a redundant lock-picking HUD, in general there was no sense of tension from vulnerability alone (the Cradle, and perhaps the Rutherford Castle, being the only exceptions) unless the player handicapped him/herself by not taking all the plentiful gear into a mission or choosing not to use it, the richest and wealthiest district has no more wealth to loot than the others and less places to infiltrate and less AIs walking around to cull from, overpowered and plentiful gas bombs rendering gas arrows meaningless except for increased range of attack, Keepers not thinking anything of the Receptacles, the power of Dyan's staff a wasted opportunity, even less flora and fauna with rust mites and cats filling the void pathetically, blackjack and arrow power-ups to kill insects just waiting to be shot and doing nothing else, thirteen this's and thirteen thats, three pieces of Special Loot in almost every mission, loot percentages in the HUD as if Garrett would know how much beforehand, no mention of: Blackbrook, the war or veterans, a Sheriff, Lieutenants, Deputies, Courts, Magistrates, Constables, City Council, Commissioners, The City Rumpleball League, the Census Bureau, Guilds, City Guard, Cyric, Bohn, the Esse Range, Precursors, Karath Din, The Maw/The Green, Throvia, Illyria, Dreckboun, Fendon, Sunnyport, the Cash Pits/Bear Pits, Grand Library, Grandmauden, or the Hand Mages from "the East" and relics buried beneath "sands of forgotten kings"; Garrett's mech-eye changed to something very different and bland and crude with no connection to the world tech seen around at all, some amnesia among the factions about recent history, encouragement of killing and mugging and getting in AIs' faces, overpowered wall-hugging, the built-in cheating aspect of 3rd-person to see around corners and above ledges the avatar can't, moonlight blue in places the moonlight couldn't reach, AIs that impale themselves repeatedly on their own weapons as they fall, items just falling off AIs as if the avatar shook a tree of ripened fruit, less humor overall, guards don't know about health potions (instead of drinking them themselves, as in TMA), a constant stream of Old Gray Lady/The Hag songs and stories and children's games that were never ever mentioned before but are suddenly very common, no domestic use of crystals or importation of them and labeled "arrows" in the store (made into pure power-ups, rather than a part of that world the people use and work with), the best complimentary story bits are in idle mutterings the players usually don't wait around to hear, use of overly common and overly large fonts, too much hand-holding and making things too easy to cater to less-skilled or lazy players, Morris the Cook goes ahead with the plan even though he was with Lord Julian when his medallion was stolen and drank himself into a stupor that night because he was depressed, Soulforge is said to be destroyed by the Mutox when the Mutox couldn't have done that (and to force an explanation, it would have had to be something similar to what happened to the Clock Tower), there's a Mechanist Viktrola in the Cradle decades before the Mechanist Movement, the Architect's Blueprints look nothing at all like blueprints or building plans, characters talk about the "old" Mechanist stuff when it's only about a year after TMA and The City is nearly cleansed of even just the plate metal that was even there before the Mechanists (a bit in St. Edgar's, a Viktrola at Widow Moira's, another at the Cradle, and a collection in the Museum, while even the electric field securities attributed to the Mechanists are made of tech that existed before them), Gamall's Artifact Map has two receptacles in the wrong places, the explanation for how the unwanted Pagans are suffered to take over and ruin Docks and the Auldale Public Gardens is almost never heard by players so it doesn't appear to make sense, the legal and illegal and opposing forces live together in harmony right next to each other (and the size of the city sections don't account for it), a Diamond Gear is not made of diamond and could not bear much weight and neither does its location make any sense, a stamping machine that is really a plasma cutter of a sort, the Old Quarter and Ft. Ironwood and the Cataclysm Memorial were separated from the walled-off areas (no sign of them) when it should've been right up against it with Ft. Ironwood in place to watch over it, where are the Wardens?, where were the minecars and tracks in the mines?, what did the Pagans do with the Jacknall's Paw and why is the Kurshok King Gruliac's severed hand called "Jacknall's Paw" (it's not so much clever mystery as seeming to have something amiss in development, as well as how the Crown made for Gruliac is twice the size of a Kurshok head), Garrett has no acquaintances but Heartless Perry and Artemus instead of the slew of people he knew in the underground (no Basso, Sangar, Zhan, Manny Jabrielle, and characters like Issyt whom Garrett lent his Lucky Hand of Glory, or other many allies and connections), and lack of prostitution (it's not a game for children, but it does keep things fairly clean).

And I can assure you this list would double in size if I really went into more of what the older titles had that TDS, a newer game, shockingly lacked. And this would include things that are not at all nitpicky as the bottom of the list.

Now, I can see how one would think this is totally writing the game off, but it's not. You challenged, I answered. This is all bad for Thief, and that's separate from whether or not it's a good game. For a given person, one will notice one thing more than another, if they notice it at all, and other people will have to endure what is an assault on their senses. It's not a choice when something hits the eyes or ears harshly, or has the player fumbling with the controls, fighting the avatar animations that shouldn't have any influence on movement but do. These are not choices, but real problems. Of course, one person will suffer more than another--it's no one's fault for having that experience. It's also bad for Thief because many of those who began with TDS can't get into the older titles or appreciate them, when TDS should havee been a fine compliment that made the older titles very desireable, as one of the older titles often did for the other. It was a newer game with newer tech and it stepped many things down, not up. More things were inferior than superior, and the superior doesn't make up for it. Again, good game, but bad Thief.

Many things listed ruined the game for a lot of people just for the interference of player controls from bad implementation, and constant reminders that this wasn't the same Thief at heart, but it's cousin, frustrating players who had more trouble with bungled movement, or restrictions on freedoms that were plentiful before, than any trouble the AIs or puzzles posed. Many things listed were disappointing when noticed along the way that marred all the pleasant, impressive, and surprising good stuff. Many things listed show what should've been better and weren't for reasons unknown and known. Many things are niggling, but they shouldn't be there in a newer game--bad things from the older titles should not be carried over in new form, made worse, or replaced with something else bad or worse, is the point, as well as making things that are not even complimentary to begin with. I also did not list rope arrows and swimmable water, because those weren't the level designers' fault, yet they are missed, if only for the added freedom of player-chosen alternate pathways and maintained world-building. I didn't list the common complaint about the Loading Zones-grrr-consoles, just the fact they made the world feel too dang small. Many things listed should've been improved upon to make even more satisfying than before and were just not there, or were and were sacrificed for something of lesser priority. The last and concluding third of a whole story was told in an alien manner inconsistent with what came before, with some things perfectly aligned and a lot that was not.


I seriously enjoy the things that were carried over faithfully, especially the small detailed stuff, and things that weren't "fixed" but enhanced.

[esme]

Originally Posted by jtr7

A late response to one of my pet peeve statements...:

[Viktoria]

Such passion can only be admired.

[Namdrol]

And to present it with such passion while retaining clarity.

Even those who knock him down must respect his integrity.

[Vae]

Hats off to jtr7...

[jtr7]

[Avarice]

I think thief 3 really helped to promote Microsoft's 1st ever X box console, showing off TDS in the action-packed stealth RPG with its inspiring graphics and 3d engine.
Eidos really put Microsoft on the map with their inspiring story-line, however... I believe that Garrett's origin was shown far too early on in the Thief series and as a result didn't offer as much profit as it could have made (example: X-men: origins.. 'nuff said).
I started thinking about the main attraction of Thief 3; what brought X box and PC fans closer together was mainly the promise of a stealth adventure game that would not only test your guile but your accuracy and cunning.
Near the end of the game, however... I started to find the whole "running from the same place to another and back again" a bit too limited.
I mean,there are only so many secret short-cuts through-out the whole city and even when you some-how find a way to get as close to a large roll of rooftops to dash across, somehow Garrett is unable to comprehend what it is you want him to do and often leaps to his death.

So Im going to simply put down everything I feel should be changed for the best in the new Thief 4 and pray that some at least make the final cut!

Sneak-attack / Stealth-Combat:
Lets face it, we all can get pretty darn tired of sneaking up behind someone and stabbing them in the head, as it tends to get very old and some cant help but feel a bit cheated by Garrets lack of creativity.
Answer me this... why is it that i am unable to slip up behind an enemy and quietly but violently stab him repeatedly in the back of his ribs and spinal-cord, while holding a hand firmly over his mouth to help muffle his dieing screams, instead of a quick and boring kill?
Or maybe I want to impale him from a short distance with a fire-place poker or arrow (depending on Garret's strength) thus launching the victim over a railing just in front of him?
Perhaps I'd prefer simply slipping up behind said enemy and viscerally snapping his neck?
These days, having opportunity and options adds an extra touch of spice to gaming.

Open (non-stealth) Combat:
When I first was attacked by a guard who simply saw me killing his best friend, I feel he may have over-reacted a bit when he called in his other friends to take down one thief/ mass murderer.
I mean realistically, from anyone's point of view you'd attack the thief first and attempt to kill him yourself avenging your fallen brother's honor and If said thief gained the upper-hand you'd consider calling for reinforcements, would you not?

Not to mention the open-combat mechanics, that were meant for Garret's master abilities with a blade to be seriously under-mined.
I was sad when I found out the hard way when Garret was unable to grapple with a guard's sword-hand and throw him with a hip-toss, roll with the guard's momentum, sending the weapon sailing-free, come up on top of the guard and look into his eyes and watch the lights go out as you plunge your-own blade into his throat(or knock him out w/e), or simply execute a spinning hip-toss, sending the guard head-first into a nearby stone-wall, take his weapon and run away.
Maybe execute a spin-kick to the guards temple, execute a series of blows to the openings in the guards armor (non-lethal) and vanish into the night.

Character Creation and Features:

Question: Why does Garret have to be a man?
Not that I'm complaining about Eidos's one-of-a-kind character celebrities, but I'm sure that letting the millions and billions of Garrets fans would like a crack at creating and personalizing their own experiences with Thief 4, character creation in any game genres greatly increases both playability, and the players ability to familiarize themselves with a Master-Thief character, not to mention that almost any game that was created for the X box and X box 360 saw a lot more of a profit because they allowed game customization for the soon-to-be fans (example: Star Wars: K.O.T.O.R. I and II).
Why can't Garrett be a female master-thief or a thief with two mechanical eyes or even completely blind; relying on his/ her stealth and hearing abilities alone.
Or maybe Instead of Garret having quicker reflexes I prefer to rely on strength or fight-combat skills to quickly dis-arm of kill my target, maybe I'd like to be strong enough to toss the poor sod across the room like a bag of potatoes or snap his neck like a twig, maybe I'd prefer to be able to move so fast that all the enemy would see is a black blur moving across the roof-tops and watch in awe as one guard at a time dropped to the ground; the victim of a ninja-star / blade in their bodies or a slit throat... why not sleeping powder?

Here is a good one; Why is it that the guards are always wearing armor... even in the barracks or using the facilities, every one has a point of vulnerability, especially during "nappy-time".
Some guards may even be heavy-sleepers, for crying out loud!!
Why cant I bribe a guard - any guard, who thinks poorly of his employer or who harbors a secret grudge against his commanding officer and has a wish for his boss to be "demoted with extreme prejiduce, or maybe said disgruntled guard would like for some thing to go wrong during his boss's shift to allow for a new supervisor to replace him and is willing to accidentally leave a window or door unlocked that has a unguarded passage near it, allowing you into the building or simply willing to look the other way, maybe even thoughtlessly leave a key in the bushes near the back gate?

PC-NPC Interaction:

It was a bit disturbing to me to see such a lack of NPC-PC / PC-NPC interaction that didnt directly affect the quest or mission, it was as if the whole city was either for you or against you and everyone knows that even in conflict, there is a gray area.
It seemed like the only person in TDS that Garrett would ever openly speak to was the man who gave him the money for whatever he stole and a few other NPC (none of which the player could interact with freely).

I feel that T4 should allow for relationships no matter what faction the PC gets involved with though there should also be conflicting factors to consider when trading, bribing, cheating, extorting and threatening (don't get me wrong).
I cant feel that through out the game, there were no points at all where Garret was free to interact with civilians aside from all of the running and screaming before I went all "jack the ripper" on them.
I'd hate to try and see this new T4 become something out of a GTA: SA remake, but Im sick and tired of having to see the Infamous "Garrett; Master-Thief Extraordinaire", with what one must assume is a dirty raggedy-looking hooded-cowl, clad in black.
I had a thought while playing TDS, about what it would be like to lead 2 different life-styles (by day; Garrett Bar-tender, by night; Garrett Master-Thief- scourge of the city, Lord of the flies and so on) and yes, I admit that new attire and clothing styles might be implied as everyone may suspect the ruggedly- handsome man clad in black thief gear is really Garrett himself !!

New fighting techniques, armor and gear:
I'll get straight to the point, here people, as this part is very obvious... I hate not being able to kill guards and other enemies with my bare hands and not being able to disarm unsuspecting enemies (some pun intended) or even set up an assassination to look like someone else did the hit, or make a murder look like a homicide/ suicide (example: Grand Inquisitor Retard, killed Lord Richard VI during a heated argument and in his grief took his own life, after robbing the entire building of expensive silver, gold and anything else that wasn't bolted down).
Among other things (and I'm sure that everyone has thought about this at some point, I'd like to use a bottle for once to smash open some guys melon or bust the bottle and cut him for talking trash, I'd like to be able to use other.. more commonly found instruments to reap my destruction a.k.a a bar-stool, chair/ chair-leg, or maybe cut an extra hole in him to breath through, and start a brawl to distract his friends from following me as i make my escape.

Environment:

This should go without saying, There needs to be more places to go, I have run from one quarter of the city to the next and have run out of Ideas about how to Improve upon the design of the city, I think that the city should be a direct reflection of the NPCs living within its walls (example: I see many people in the section of the city and don't know where they live, they just walk into a black hole and disappear until the sun comes up again and it becomes very annoying.
i haven't been able to find any farm-land in the city and often wonder where all the NPCs go during the night (JK).
But i have noticed that there is no farm-lands to speak of and i ask myself... how is it that no one ever starves in this Metropolis / necropolis town?
I'd like to be able to use a wagon filled with flour and grain as a distraction every once in a while, you know.



that's all I have for now, if the general people of Eidos do consider my view for their T4 please don't hesitate to contact me.

[DarknessFalls]

DaffyGKH wrote: I have seen posts where people said that Thief 3 was "not completely done" or "ideas not totally implemented" and even "good ideas, but not put into the game correctly". Yet many of these people are YET to say what things in particular they are talking about.

I wish I could copy and paste all the details I've written. Heh, but it doesn't matter now because Jtr7 just did and added a zillion more..

So I think I might change my signature to the following:

So what was wrong with T3, you might ask? Allow me to elaborate, courtesy of Jtr7:
Framerate issues, a stumbling drunk of an avatar, hand-holding, reduced freedom of several player movements taken for granted in the earlier titles, dumbing down for the wrong age group, watering down for too many new things, screwing 1st-person and leaning in favor of 3rd-person and body awareness (which is rectifiable these days), addition of automated movements and guiding the avatar into place while sacrificing many player freedoms to do so, contradiction in how the player controls the avatar compared to the first 2/3rds of the trilogy, breaking character/ethos/idiom in several places, not being able to jump into any mission one wants without creating a savegame first, badly hand-animated AIs instead of motion-capture, atrocious menu screens/maps/readable art in both appearance and function (should've been better than the older titles, not worse or a continuation of similar problems), embarrassingly bad and depthless Paganspeak, a gutting of the steampunk and Thief-specific tech that was always there before Karras was born (relegated to two specific spots), a light crowd of AIs wandering back and forth in the streets like parading cattle just waiting to be robbed who should all be in bed, an overpowered and overly wealthy Garrett needing few skills to succeed, botched Enforcers, city sections that don't align (one is built horizontally-flipped!), Loading Zones between districts that make you think you've only traveled 10 meters when it's miles, colored lighting that washes out all the color of the textures and is all basic colors (dark tan, magenta, yellow, blue, cyan, green, boring and monochrome), bad in-engine movies with botched urine-yellow sepia, loot glint and arrow trails and other consolish glowy things, noisemakers that really just make fireworks noises (familiar noise, too, that wouldn't fool anyone! And Keepers don't know about them?!), Faction alliances that have nothing to do with joining up to fight a common foe, too many people knowing where Garrett lives and helping themselves into his apartment, the master of the unseen recognized everywhere (no, not all the time) as Garrett and not just a thief or suspicious person, big HUD and oversized equipment, bare arms, crystals that glow and sing to call to the player so they don't have to hunt for them, zombies die with one flashbomb and not a minimum of two (while Garrett can carry way too many), bumbling and embarrassingly stupid Keepers (not just uninformed and manipulated), no idea how Gamall could be a Keeper for centuries and no one notices a series of Keepers that do not age and die as she changes skins and forms again and again, long-winded briefings and debriefings breaking the fourth wall too often, Garrett not knowing his own neighborhood nor most of the fences/stores, a big deal made out of how Carmen runs an illicit business under the Hammers' noses while several fences/stores do already before we see her, continuity errors galore, translucent hair, staring glazed eyes, unrestricted ragdoll effects (should've been an improvement, not a different kind of failure), the slapsticky slips on oil (including being able to kill Gamall five times), less scary zombies and Hammer Haunts, incredibly empty Sunken Citadel and Kurshok the devs had no time to make according to the original designs, hand-drawn maps the devs sketched for the art department to work from and instead kept as is and added clipart to the devs' chagrin, bad UI artistry all around, bump-mapping on every damned thing for no good reason, no clocks or time-telling devices or bell towers tolling (the Clock Tower has no numbers and has eight symbols instead of twelve), no numbers on most things that used to have them, a redundant lock-picking HUD, in general there was no sense of tension from vulnerability alone (the Cradle, and perhaps the Rutherford Castle, being the only exceptions) unless the player handicapped him/herself by not taking all the plentiful gear into a mission or choosing not to use it, the richest and wealthiest district has no more wealth to loot than the others and less places to infiltrate and less AIs walking around to cull from, overpowered and plentiful gas bombs rendering gas arrows meaningless except for increased range of attack, Keepers not thinking anything of the Receptacles, the power of Dyan's staff a wasted opportunity, even less flora and fauna with rust mites and cats filling the void pathetically, blackjack and arrow power-ups to kill insects just waiting to be shot and doing nothing else, thirteen this's and thirteen thats, three pieces of Special Loot in almost every mission, loot percentages in the HUD as if Garrett would know how much beforehand, no mention of: Blackbrook, the war or veterans, a Sheriff, Lieutenants, Deputies, Courts, Magistrates, Constables, City Council, Commissioners, The City Rumpleball League, the Census Bureau, Guilds, City Guard, Cyric, Bohn, the Esse Range, Precursors, Karath Din, The Maw/The Green, Throvia, Illyria, Dreckboun, Fendon, Sunnyport, the Cash Pits/Bear Pits, Grand Library, Grandmauden, or the Hand Mages from "the East" and relics buried beneath "sands of forgotten kings"; Garrett's mech-eye changed to something very different and bland and crude with no connection to the world tech seen around at all, some amnesia among the factions about recent history, encouragement of killing and mugging and getting in AIs' faces, overpowered wall-hugging, the built-in cheating aspect of 3rd-person to see around corners and above ledges the avatar can't, moonlight blue in places the moonlight couldn't reach, AIs that impale themselves repeatedly on their own weapons as they fall, items just falling off AIs as if the avatar shook a tree of ripened fruit, less humor overall, guards don't know about health potions (instead of drinking them themselves, as in TMA), a constant stream of Old Gray Lady/The Hag songs and stories and children's games that were never ever mentioned before but are suddenly very common, no domestic use of crystals or importation of them and labeled "arrows" in the store (made into pure power-ups, rather than a part of that world the people use and work with), the best complimentary story bits are in idle mutterings the players usually don't wait around to hear, use of overly common and overly large fonts, too much hand-holding and making things too easy to cater to less-skilled or lazy players, Morris the Cook goes ahead with the plan even though he was with Lord Julian when his medallion was stolen and drank himself into a stupor that night because he was depressed, Soulforge is said to be destroyed by the Mutox when the Mutox couldn't have done that (and to force an explanation, it would have had to be something similar to what happened to the Clock Tower), there's a Mechanist Viktrola in the Cradle decades before the Mechanist Movement, the Architect's Blueprints look nothing at all like blueprints or building plans, characters talk about the "old" Mechanist stuff when it's only about a year after TMA and The City is nearly cleansed of even just the plate metal that was even there before the Mechanists (a bit in St. Edgar's, a Viktrola at Widow Moira's, another at the Cradle, and a collection in the Museum, while even the electric field securities attributed to the Mechanists are made of tech that existed before them), Gamall's Artifact Map has two receptacles in the wrong places, the explanation for how the unwanted Pagans are suffered to take over and ruin Docks and the Auldale Public Gardens is almost never heard by players so it doesn't appear to make sense, the legal and illegal and opposing forces live together in harmony right next to each other (and the size of the city sections don't account for it), a Diamond Gear is not made of diamond and could not bear much weight and neither does its location make any sense, a stamping machine that is really a plasma cutter of a sort, the Old Quarter and Ft. Ironwood and the Cataclysm Memorial were separated from the walled-off areas (no sign of them) when it should've been right up against it with Ft. Ironwood in place to watch over it, where are the Wardens?, where were the minecars and tracks in the mines?, what did the Pagans do with the Jacknall's Paw and why is the Kurshok King Gruliac's severed hand called "Jacknall's Paw" (it's not so much clever mystery as seeming to have something amiss in development, as well as how the Crown made for Gruliac is twice the size of a Kurshok head), Garrett has no acquaintances but Heartless Perry and Artemus instead of the slew of people he knew in the underground (no Basso, Sangar, Zhan, Manny Jabrielle, and characters like Issyt whom Garrett lent his Lucky Hand of Glory, or other many allies and connections), and lack of prostitution (it's not a game for children, but it does keep things fairly clean)

[jtr7]

...if the general people of Eidos do consider my view for their T4 please don't hesitate to contact me.

Seriously?

So... you want a very different game playing a mix-and-match thief, with a strong emphasis on interaction, rather than little to none (that is one of THE major differences between Thief and other games that makes it unique and better). Assassin's Creed and Splinter Cell come strongly to mind, with a thief character.

These suggestions go so far out of bounds of what makes Thief what it is. It's well understood that Thief is a niche game that does not have mass appeal. Going in your direction means fleeing Thief hard and fast to find comfort in the warm arms of consumerist mediocrity--with high-gloss.

[Namdrol]

Avarice,
I'm deeply suspicious of your post but I will give you the benefit of the doubt.
You've never played TDP or TMA have you?
In the first two games if you played on the hardest setting you were not allowed to kill any humans.
This is one of the main attractions of the game for both me and many others.
And your post is full of lurid descriptions of how Garrett will kill and slaughter his way through the missions.
Not Thief I'm afraid.
There are many hack and slash games out there and this is one of the few if not the only one where you're encouraged to not "inhume" everyone in sight.

You believe they didn't maximise profit because they created a deep believable story?
Your tag is well chosen.

Could you please give TDP and TMA a try.
I think you then might understand this game a little more.
They're very cheap at the moment.
Link to Thief Collection
But I suspect you won't like them.
In which case I would respectfully say Thief is not for you.

[mitch_buchannon]

hi there, had to sign up and join the fun.. i am equally excited about a new thief game, yay! platform conversion angst, clumsiness, basically anthing I say has probably been said before.. so i hope in potentially repeating things I give my predecessors "more weigth". a few thoughts:

-set dressing - granted, yes, thief was never about uber-graphics and more about mood.. but with all games I always felt a little more love for things that fill a room would have gone a long way..i could swear I have looted the same old darn goblet in all three games, (perhaps this was simply a performance issue). i see plenty of potential for interaction with the environment due to development with todays physics engines). throw a chair at someones feet slowing them down in pursuit of you, drop a flower pot off a ledge to knock someone out, curtain cutting and hiding has been mentioned, starting a fire (and stealing away during the commotion?), stumbling over things, etc..i also like the idea of pushing someone over a balcony (without getting totally splinter cell), starting a fight betwen two guards by pick-pocketing from one and placing it on the other (then watch from the shadows as they start a drunken brawl)

i am also totally in love with the idea of including weather effects.. rain, fog, snow, lighnting, and the consequences each entails: wet foor prints, squeaky shoes , low visibility in fog, rain rain rain... you name it..i also find the idea intruiging that light is not entirely "evil". there is many a moments I am happy its not totally dark (and scary!) - maybe there is an instance in which its actually good to light up a candle, (to see better, to give a fake signal to someone) but it comes at a risk: less shadow to hide in..

-gadgets and co - . new gadgets and gimmicks are probably inevitable, so whatever gets included i hope really works with the the theme.. I would actually like to see the amount of gadgets be reduced.. oil flaskets, fire arrows, gas bombs and whatnot. As for arrows, all you need is: broadhead, water and rope. done, -anything else isn't really necessary... noise maker arrow? never been a friend of it.. throw an object! I would like to see more versatility to each one thing, take the water arrow for example: it: puts out candles, removes blood stains and takes (took) care of zombies. this is efficient. I would like to see the same for the rope arrow. There is bound to be some rooftop action in the next game, how about using the rope also horizontally (like a trapeez artist) to overcome gaps, and it could be used as a trip wire to slow someone down, or a clothesline (when placed higher) to knock someone out..-how cool is that?

one last thing, what a friendly, non-l33t forum you are, -thanks taffers!

[jtr7]

Welcome! A fine first post on this fine board, here!

Weeellll....
Horizontal wires take more time to set than the results are worth. You're not being very stealthy if you need to slow a guard down. You already have means to do that. How many people would actually go through the trouble of setting a tripwire/clothesline and...leave the area? Wouldn't most people stick around to watch the action? And what about new animations just for that? And them getting back up? And what fun to have an AI get stuck there and get up and fall down infinitely? From what I've seen, games still don't have AIs that don't get stuck on terrain or obstacles. Gas mines make much more sense if we're gonna go the route of placing something to slow AIs down, with the bonus of letting the players do what they will naturally do, and stick around to watch, not set-and-flee, never knowing...

You're not alone about the horizontal zip line, but it hasn't been thought through, either. A few more discussions and maybe we'll figure out how to deal with setting it in place, and resetting it when it goes wrong, but mainly, does the player character walk a tightrope, traverse head first hanging down and hand-over-hand with his legs hooked on, or feet first and hand-over-hand, or hand-over-hand with legs dangling? These are real considerations, which also include dismounting concerns when reaching the other side. Every thing a human takes for granted has to be built from scratch. Seeing Garrett go prone or horizontal will probably have to be done anyway, for hiding under beds, crawling through tight crawlspaces/vents/windows, and swimming. I would like to see him be able to use guy wires, cables, and other ropes, as well as just having dynamic rope action, including swinging--all of which are quite doable once the basics are in place.

Less gadgets is nice, but I seriously want the elemental crystals/arrows and elemental phenomena to remain, and greater versatility is a Thief trademark, so yeah. Gas bombs are too over-powered and gotta go. If I have them it's too easy to lob one and walk on through without any real sneaking, or jog down a street lobbing them to clear the path or make loot rain down (Loot needs to stay attached and not just fall off, anyway). Any gizmodic changes should definitely be pushing for more stealth and non-confrontation and the fire arrows and explosive mines need to be mission-specific and rare otherwise, so the player needs to think about timing or planning their use.


I heartily agree about the desire to see spaces filled in more ways and with more overall; however, since object limitations per map are very real, and we'd like to see bigger free-roaming maps, they would have to pull some unusual technical trickery to make that happen, not including the higher number of unique objects that have to be made by the same few people on a time limit.

[Nate]

Well said, jtr7!

[DF-HellFier]

The most important must be (concentrated in one place) Notice: This is what important for many Thief series fans! Also, this will bring a lot of new fans!:

1) Stephen Russell as Garrett - do not change the main character! Or people will burn down Eidos HQ...
2) Eric Brosius for music!
3) Bring back the classic Thief 1 and 2 feel and look, not the Thief 3 crap!!
4) Make The City dark and mysterious!
5) Thief IV not Thi4f !
6) No loading zones, brakes immersion!
7) Keep it first person and keep each level story driven. We want atmosphere, story, tension and fear!!!
8) Steampunk atmosphere!
9) Rope arrows!
10) Mature storyline with depth that we can debate on the forums after with some ambiguity.
11) Proper blackjacking and swimable water (like T1&T2)!
12) No roamable city unless it is part of a mission on its own (e.g. life of party)!
13) Never don't make a revisiting levels (place's) - this is not what thief is about! - Exploration is the key element!
14) Advanced AI is introduced. The NPC would notice what is missing, and instead of going "Oh my, my [x] is missing", and continuing along their path, they do something about it. IE, go walk around a radius near their home to see if they can locate anything, talk to the local guards, etc...
15) The climbing gloves need to be taken out. It was a stupid idea in the first place!
16) No "pattern" at the lock's - The lockpicking system in Deadly Shadows worked, but needed some improvements. The fact that there was a pattern to each kind of lock, made it possible to open each lock too quickly, and took the fear out of getting caught... May be: 2 or 3 tipes of lock picks in addition to non-patterned locks.
17) Health potions are fine, but should be scarce and cost a lot more in shops! It would put more emphasis on sneaking.
18) Thief 1&2 favourite games of the series
19) The whole atmosphere of the world and the awesomeness of Garrett and the story are the best features of the game (basically almost everything)!
20) Huge, unbroken levels are a must, as are multiple routes in navigating them. (Non-linear, long missions)!
22) SECRETS and a tally at the end of the mission for secrets/treasures found/stealth rating (really liked this added replayability)!
23) An obligatory "scary" level. The Haunted Cathedral from Thief and Shalebridge Cradle from Deadly Shadows are imaginative, scary, unsettling, simply EXCELLENT missions!
24) Bring back the cutscene briefings! - It will add more atmosphere to the game.
25) No loot shining/glinting!
26) No oil flask - Stupid idea (Hardly the delicate precision instrument that a master Thief would use.)
27) Bring back the equipment from T1&2 inventory! - Mines, Frogbeast eggs, Slowfall potions, etc... etc...

About characters & Levels:

One of many pool's for levels & characters: www.thiefvote.t35.com You actually can vote...

Which locations, areas, levels we want see in Thief 4 - http://answers.polldaddy.com/poll/1619972/?view=results (more detailed: http://thiefvote.t35.com/Thief4/Loc.mht)

Which characters we want to see in Thief 4 - http://answers.polldaddy.com/poll/1619839/?view=results (more detailed: http://thiefvote.t35.com/Thief4/Char.mht)

The Russian community also gives very similar defenitions of PERFECT THIEF 4 GAME!

[taffer1]

Question:

Are the developers planning on using those polls, or are they just for ha-ha's?

They've been working on T4 for over a year now, you'd think they're past this point?

[DF-HellFier]

You know, those polls & our post's on this forum are all what we can do to influence at what game it will be... Its not hard to make a poll, but this is the thing that can make the difference even at the middle of the development!..

P.S. Let me guess... an XBOX player? Or perhaps PS2-3?

[Namdrol]

Listen to the Russians.
They don't mess about.

[taffer1]

Originally Posted by DF-HellFier

P.S. Let me guess... an XBOX player? Or perhaps PS2-3?

Hello there...

Nope, I'm PS3 & PC player. And a die hard Thief fan.

I'd love to see what thief can do on PS3 1080i or 1080p.

[Vae]

Originally Posted by taffer1

I'd love to see what thief can do on PS3 1080i or 1080p.

Be careful what you wish for, before discovering the hidden price...

[DF-HellFier]

Yeep, agree with Vae & Namdrol...

P.S. I was thinking that bringing back the cameras alarms & the bots (robots) from mechanist will be an exelent idea! This is one of the "things" that was missed to me in TDS...

P.P.S. It will be nice to make a russian version of the game (Translate the maps & translate the text - make ingame & video subtitles! I dont wanna hear Garrett voiced by someone else! The rest of Russian fans too...) And what very important is to make an open fully excessable files that contents the text (subs, books, briefing e.t.c) (like the other 3 Thief games. With .TTF fonts or .FON fonts - much easier to find the right fonts) - It will allow to make the translation in case that the RUS. version wouldn't come out (after all, we make the translations for all 3 games, lot of FM's & T2X: Shadows of the metal age (Fan-made Thief stiled game based on Thief expirience))...

P.P.S. Editor & development tool's are must be! (Like DromEd, Hammer, DarkRadiant) - It allow us to make FM's after we finish playing the game itself!

[Fastcrap]

Well I am not nearly as brainiac as some others in here

But I still think I can contribute a little!

I think alot of posts talk about the missions in Thief 1 and 2 and how they where
great and I agree, I think the amount of detail and large maps in every missions
made it them much better then some of the theif 3 mission maps.

I HATE not being able to use the roofs in thief 3, and the steam, the pipes to wigle over streets, the oppen windows to steal from etc, I think it should be improved and perhaps if we will be made to roam the city wile going to and from missions, fence etc we should have more travel options but I did't like it so much since it was just a way to add "play time" even though it felt like "waste time".

I WANT my sneaking BACK, in thief 3 I was able to Rambo my way through
because I could buy what ever arrows I wanted and make loads of money.

I WANT the funny guards that have funny conversations wile you sneak past LOL.

I WANT the damn rope arrow and NOT the stupid "magical" climbing gloves.

I wish the noise makers where more like in T1 and T2 and distracted the guards
more effectively.

We should have less access to things that make Rambo style possible, like health
potions etc.

BRING BACK 1st persson view, and if the console cry babys complain send them
to me I'l hmmmm "hug" some sence into them lol.

Try to give it more atmosphere like in T1 and T2 where the sounds alone could make
you wet your pants! Use the modern shadows for that too and so on.

Reintroduce more agility based and skill based and clever and scary acrobatics

Have more puzzles like to oppen this and move that, just try not to make it dumb
things that we will all get stuck for hours trying to oppen something because
the trick was rediculousely hard to figure out.

Undead do annoy, but they are part of the story and having them now that we are at
T4 seems logical but I wish there was'nt too much of them lol. They piss me off lol.

Have alternate routes in missions like in T2 specialy where you could pick and chose
your way through missions, or just make the map and let us find nice ways through LOL

And if I think of more things to waste your time with I'l come and edit this!

EDIT>: Oh yeah don't mind my CRAP english spelling I am French Canadien in Montreal,
and let me know if you realy are making this in Montreal maybe I can be a tester,
that way I can tell you what I hate and like because I am a wanker

[jtr7]

Of course they really are making it in Montréal.
400 de Maisonneuve West, 6th floor, Montréal, Québec

Here's the job description for you:
http://www.eidosmontreal.com/en/tester.html





Oh, and no acrobatics. Garrett's not an acrobat or parkour runner, nor an assassin, nor in a hurry.

[Viktoria]

This topic is now unpinned as I think it's ran its course. It is easily referenced via Keeper Diary thread, under 'special discussion' at top of the page.

Any new threads posted of similar note will still be merged into this one... eventually.