YOUR THOUGHTS & WISHES & SUGGESTIONS for T4 - General Discussion

[Gan Xodos]

I'm with the idea of having only a dagger through and through

I'm not for kung-fu or boxing or stuff like that, it's not stealthy enough. It'd be nice to be able to slit someones throat from behind though (oh and smothering sleeping people )

[Abelo]

Ok...that's just not logical. If you want large, expansive missions that you only have to load once...you're going to have to wait for awhile. If you want them to load 'lickity split' they're going to be chopped up. Take your pick.

Oh sorry, maybe I didn't make my point clear.

Fewer load times is way better than short load times for a game like Thief in which you want the player as hooked to the atmosphere as possible. The tradeoff for the load time lenght would be a bit of graphical quality, but you don't really need that much of a tradeoff if the engine memory management is good and the game is optimized enough. I just commented on it because load times are more important in Thi4f than, say, an RTS or an average shooter for its heavy reliance on inmersiveness.

[CurtX]

Fave game: TDP
Fave features: stealthing (duh), exceptional sound, Stephen Russell, ambiance, steampunk, utility arrows (especially rope and water), blackjack, cutscenes, mission briefing cutscenes, ambiguous maps, challenge, suspense, tension, frights, laughs, and of course TAFFING!

[Gan Xodos]

well look at oblivion/fallout 3, it has massive levels and it has one of the shortest loading times in any game. It's definitely possible if u have the engine for it...
(no loading time at all would be even better constantly loading areas without letting you know it, like many modern games today-> far cry 2, oblivion/fallout3 exteriors, prince of persia...)

[Espion]

Hi everyone, I'm new here. Before I jump into the discussion I'd just like to say I'm so happy to be posting in a forum about a sequel to one of my most favourite game series (sans DS - sorry, but that was largely a fail.) I never thought I'd be posting in the forums for a new sequel! A big thanks to the people responsible and I wish you all the best of luck working on a project which inherently comes with a lot of baggage (trying to please us all AND everybody else )

Now, to the discussion.

Originally Posted by Abelo

First of all, let me set my point of view.

Thi4f will NOT be a clone of the first one;

I have to disagree with that. When you boil it down to the basic gameplay there's very little in the original two games that is outdated. I believe that controls should be streamlined a bit to mirror modern concepts of first person control but even then there would only be a few issues.

but we all have to admit multiplatform is the future (the present, in fact)

Agreed, though unless you have good sized teams for each platform it would be best to work on two platforms first, get it done, then work on the third. Since XBox and PC architecture is very similar they would be the logical first choice, then follow up on the PS3 later. Too many games suffer from being forced onto all three at the same time.

titles like BioShock and Fallout 3 have showed the world that slightly casualizing old formulas is not an evil deed

Bad examples if you ask me. Bioshock was entertaining but far too linear and simplified from System Shock. Fallout 3 was an enjoyable Post-apocalyptic RPG but didn't feel like it was a sequel to FO. Not to mention, tediously travelling across barren wasteland, no matter how nice it looks, is still tedious. The original games handled this much better with world maps... My point is that both games changed too much for the sake of style over substance and they became less fun for it.

- DOs / WINING ATTITUDE

· Remake the core idea of the originals.

I guess I agree with this but as I said, I think the basic gameplay of Thief 1 and 2 translates just fine to this generation.

· Atmosphere is paramount in Thief; build on it.

I agree that atmosphere and immersion is important, and I definitely agree that the levels were too small in DS, but to disregard the story is a mistake. That is as much a part of the original games atmosphere as anything else. Also, levels should NOT be linear. Open plan so the player can choose their own route to the objectives, please!

· IA

AI, yeah, definitely needs improving. When I learned how to eploit it in the original games it took the excitement down a notch or two quite drastically.

· Periodically add gameplay features

Something like Yoshi's Island is a bad example. Thief 1 and 2 did this well enough by both introducing new items in the shop and progressively giving the player more money with which to buy items. Enforcing the rate at which the player accquires new equipment instead of rewarding them for their perseverance in getting loot in previous levels would take a lot away from the game.

· Exploit the Uncanny Valley

I don't think style will be an issue so long as they follow the established look of the first games.

· Humans are more fun to kill than undead or creatures

Point 1, Garrett was a thief, not a murderer. Please bring back the "Don't kill anyone" objective on expert mode. It was something that really made beating a level in the first two games mean something on that difficulty level if I couldn't just go shooting everyone with the bow.

Point 2, humans are good opponents but the occasional variety in enemies added something to the first two games. I loved the zombies and the metal slaves. It really added a lot to the game by making me have to think about how I'd avoid them or take them out of the picture.

· Sound

Dude, it's a Thief game. Atmospheric sound is pretty much a given.

DONTs / LOSING IDEAS

· Derivative design, looking to the Thief mirror for answers to every question.

I think the Thief mirror would be a good place to look when making a Thief game. If you're not going to make a follow up to the original games then just give it a different name and don't tread on peoples toes. FO3 is a good example of ignoring the source too much (in the sense of style over substance - not the camera angle before I get labelled as a rabid FO fan ).

· Inventories and complex HUDs should be approached with tons of caution

I think the way the first two games did this was just fine. Metal gear Solid had a similar system and they've proven quite popular, so I don't see why the good old scrolling on the side can't work again.

· I could live with a character other than Garrett

Hmmm, Garrett is a really integral part of the games. I think it would be too much of a change to lose him.

comercially-focused, generic characters

Oh god, please not another macho skin-head character. Done. To. Death.

Anyway, Garrett is neat enough, why change him.

Exactly.

· Load times, as short as possible, and very specially, as FEW as possible.

I think New Horizon covered this one nicely. What you're asking for there just isn't possible.

· Perfecting hand to hand combat is wrong idea. Keep it clumsy and unfun to a certain extent.

Er... clumsy, yes, unfun... maybe the wrong wording? It should be a bad choice for the player as they'd be horribly mismatched against just about any opponent. You should still feel like you can defend yourself without it being a chore.

· Never try to be more casual for the sake of sales.

Deadly Shadows was a terrible mistake if you ask me. I agree that things will need to be streamlined for console play (and to some extent PC play), but games like Mirror's Edge have proven that it's possible to have complex game mechanics on a console... Albiet with bad collision n all. Fix the collision, and you have a good (if extreme) example of what it could be like to move in the world.

Overall, I'm just saying it wouldn't be as bad an idea as you're suggesting to follow the tracks of the original two games. They have a following for a reason, ya know?

~E

[Dia1]

Originally Posted by Espion

Overall, I'm just saying it wouldn't be as bad an idea as you're suggesting to follow the tracks of the original two games. They have a following for a reason, ya know?

~E

Seconded!

[maddermadcat]

Oh, a don't: that annoying pagan speech. Get rid of it, they didn't sound like apebeasts in TMA, they shouldn't have in TDS either.

[GmanPro]

NOTE: Not really pointed at anyone in particular, just a preemptive strike:

Thief is Thief. Lets leave it at that. If you have some 'crazy cool' idea, then you can go form your own IP and your own Stealth simulator series. There, you could add all of the:

• TITS
• VIOLENCE
• ALTERNATE PROTAGONISTS
• REGENERATING HEALTH
• STICKY COVER SYSTEMS
• MODERN SETTINGS
• QUICK TIME EVENTS
• VEHICLES
• THIRD PERSON CAMERA ANGLES
• and MULTIPLAYER GAME MODES

That you want. But do not think that you have any right to throw these things into a Thief game and still call it by the same name.

Formula for success:
Start with Thief 2. Improve the graphics, make up a new story with new supporting characters, and maybe add some new items to Garrett's arsenal. That's it.

Look at Starcraft 2 for example. Blizzard is basically making Starcraft with better graphics, an all new single player campaign(s), and some new units. And that's exactly how it should be.

[Espion]

Originally Posted by Gan Xodos

I'm with the idea of having only a dagger through and through

I'm not for kung-fu or boxing or stuff like that, it's not stealthy enough. It'd be nice to be able to slit someones throat from behind though (oh and smothering sleeping people )

The sword was really useful for smashing through things in an emergency like wooden boards or locks. I'd rather they bring it back or go for more of an in between instead of a crappy knife.

[maddermadcat]

Originally Posted by GmanPro

Look at Starcraft 2 for example. Blizzard is basically making Starcraft with better graphics, an all new single player campaign(s), and some new units. And that's exactly how it should be.

Off-topic -- am I the only person that thinks everything in SC2 looks chunky, unnecessarily bright and distracting?

[pha]

I'm 100% with you.

[Espion]

Originally Posted by Gan Xodos

well look at oblivion/fallout 3, it has massive levels and it has one of the shortest loading times in any game. It's definitely possible if u have the engine for it...
(no loading time at all would be even better constantly loading areas without letting you know it, like many modern games today-> far cry 2, oblivion/fallout3 exteriors, prince of persia...)

Oblivion and FO3 both have a massive loading time when you first turn on the game. After that it streams areas in dynamically as you go. Also, fast travelling to a location you haven't visited for a while would result in a fairly long load.

[Palmberg]

With you all the way OP

[NewUser2]

Originally Posted by GmanPro

Formula for success:
Start with Thief 2. Improve the graphics, make up a new story with new supporting characters, and maybe add some new items to Garrett's arsenal. That's it.

+1 Sounds very good! Making everything again in a new eninge will just make this old perfect thief gameplay less "thief".

An uppgradet T2 would be awsome.

[GmanPro]

Originally Posted by maddermadcat

Off-topic -- am I the only person that thinks everything in SC2 looks chunky, unnecessarily bright and distracting?

Yeah, sorta. I was never in love with the setting or visual style in that game but as of right now SC2 is pretty much the only next gen RTS that is actually an RTS. So for that it has my undying support.

+1 Sounds very good! Making everything again in a new eninge will just make this old perfect thief gameplay less "thief".

An uppgradet T2 would be awsome.

Well, I don't think I'd go that far. Its pretty much a given that EM is going to use the same engine as TRU and DX3.

[theBlackman]

The time frame and environs of TMA are a good place to start. In actuality, the first two missions in TMA are not really related to the story that develops with Truart, Karras, the servants etc. and Karras' madness.

So, except for Basso and company and the raid at the harbor and warehouses, there is ample room for a lengthy adventure that would be in the same relative time of Garrett's life and not cross into TDS or "ruin" the character.

In effect, the plot in TMA is find out what Karras is up to and stop it. The entire game takes place over about a week of Garrett time.

Surely, one week from the life of a character is not the only adventure that is possible without digressing from the main theme. Nor does it require an Einstein to flesh out the possible script of Garrett's life. The FMs extant have proven that. Garrett lives. As a living person his activities and ventures entail a history of YEARS of being GARRETT.

To start at the end of TDS and move into a possible future or "on-going" in the life of, is unnecessary. There are huge gaps in Garrett's life that could be explored without damage to the series.

Why people have to tag a numerical sequence to these things and think that if must always deal with the "Future" of Joe Blow, I'll never understand.

It would have been far better to just go with the titles. Theif: The dark project. Thief: The metal age: Thief: Deadly Shadows, Thief: The sapphire vase, or The wizard of Montreal or whatever. As long as the GAME is new, the time frame need not be.

[ironpants]

Thief 3 utterly butchered the pagan dialect; it's like a horribly comical caricature. Don't just add "bes" to the end of every sentence, it's stupid!

Reading just the pagan flavor text from the TDP briefings will convey more linguistic nuance than in all of Thief 3. Inattention to details like this which are clearly present in the original is inexcusable.

Thief is pervasively imaginative right down to the language, with its inventive dialects and consistently well written readables and overheard conversations. It makes the City real, lively and believable - even with the fantastical elements there is a coherence to it all. Gloss over this and you lose the spirit of Thief!

[Pangalactic]

I remember back in '04 I was really excited when I found out that there was going to be free roaming in between missions in TDS. Like a lot of people, 'Life of the Party' is my favorite mission. I remember playing the Thief 2 demo (my first exposure to the series) and just being completely blown away. As the level began, I just stood there for 30 seconds, taking it all in. The city was HUGE, and full of secrets, nooks, crannies. However when I played the roaming parts in TDS, I was really disappointed because of how confining they were. Suddenly the City felt like the Town (pop. 3,000). I don't think that if the developers of this game have enough time, money, or personnel to make the free roaming parts sprawling enough, interesting enough, full of secrets, and beautiful enough to make you feel like you're in THE CITY..the scope is too big. TDS felt unfinished because the devs tried to do too much and didn't have the time/money to refine it as much as it deserved to be refined. I think they should just stick to a mission by mission game and make the missions as beautiful, non-linear, immersive, and fun as possible.

I hope there's tons of readable journals, books, scrolls, etc, that are just fun, and have little/nothing to do with the game besides adding atmospheric depth.

I loved the dark undertones added by Thief 2's subtle use of the undead. Sometimes I felt like TDP was bashing me over the head with zombies. In TMA you knew the undead were there, but you rarely encountered them, and only did so if you really went deep into the dark corners of the City. Then again, maybe at least one nice scary undead level would be good for old time's sake.

Something about those green flares in TMA just felt cool...

I thought that technology wasn't portayed as well in TDS. I loved how magic and technology interacted in T1 and T2. The streetlights all had light bulbs in them, but then they had glowing orbs of magic energy on top. It was like magic and technology were being forced to work together unwillingly. I also liked the fusion of so many different styles of architecture...medieval, steampunk, Victorian, Industrial Revolution-era.... Again, it added depth and atmosphere that were what made playing Thief so fun for me.

[Peanya]

Just heard about 4 today, and I'm looking forward to it!
Recently, I re-played the first one. Personally, I prefer it more than 2 or 3. I'm near the end of 2, which is close to the first. Something about the gameplay and challenge of the first one is what I prefer. Getting lost in the lost city was frustrating, but I actually like that over an all-to-easy map. The spookiness of the first one too! Granted, the orphanage in 3 was fairly good.
I wish I could narrow it down for my suggestions. Maybe I need to play 3 again and see what I didn't like as much! That'll have to wait til another time though, I'm having too much fun playing Morrowind now - far better than oblivion!

[GmanPro]

My favorite of the series is Thief 2 (obviously). Use it as the mold for Thief 4 and everything should turn out alright. My main wish is for EM to not remove any gameplay element. Its not so bad if they add something dumb, just so long as it doesn't take away from or in any way interferes with the freedom the classic games offered. *cough* regenerating supplies *cough*

[Dia1]

Originally Posted by ironpants

Thief 3 utterly butchered the pagan dialect; it's like a horribly comical caricature. Don't just add "bes" to the end of every sentence, it's stupid!

In truth, I couldn't stand Pagan-speak from the very beginning and TDS just amplified that dislike. Don't quite know why, they just got on my nerves, especially when a Pagan had more than one line in a dialogue. I suppose, for continuity's sake, it would be necessary to include the Pagans, since they did play an important part in TDP. But imo it would be nice if they were limited to the periphery of the game. I think the Keepers, Hammerites, and Mechanists were far more important to the games than the irritating Pagans.

Just mho.

[GmanPro]

Victoria sounded awesome. More pagans should sound like her

[Pipinowns]

Thief Deadly Shadows was my favorite actually. I really LOVE 3rd person games (Max Payne, Hitman, Freedom Fighters), and it really got me into the environment. I really loved the different maps, especially the Kurshok Capital and The Shambridge Cradle.

And no, I didn't play it on a console.

[maddermadcat]

Originally Posted by Dia1

But imo it would be nice if they were limited to the periphery of the game. I think the Keepers, Hammerites, and Mechanists were far more important to the games than the irritating Pagans.

I figured modern pagans didn't sound that weird. Remember that pagan in trace the courier? He sounded off but not irritatingly weird. Viktoria's agent in one of the cutscenes just sounded like a normal guy.

Pagans are very much important -- they stand for chaos, nature, and are one of the greatest sources of creepiness in the game. Without the conflict between chaos and order, technology and nature, it wouldn't be Thief.

[Slither]

Favorite for mechanics: Thief 2. It had larger levels and more refined controls.
Favorite for story: Thief 1. Deliciously dark, frequently slipping into horror with well-done music, ambient sounds, and gothic architecture. Exposing the seemy underside of the lives of nobles was also a nice touch. "A throne room. How pretentious can you get?"

So, Eidos. Thanks for asking. Here are my favorite elements of the series:
- Tight, well organized story
- Episodic missions (great for modders and paced the story into chapters)
- Not at all about combat, but about planning and executing stealth.
- Large levels with plenty of options for attaining an objective
- The occasionaly horror mission. It's good to be afraid, sometimes.
- Gritty Garrett quips, sometimes like they're reading my mind. "It's a long way down."

Please remember this is an anti-FP Shooter game. Trust that folks with consoles can appreciate what we PC gamers have loved for so long -- first-person-only action, looking for treasure rather than have it flash at us from across the room, and reasonably smart AI. Don't kowtow to the focus groups that might say it has to have more action or blood or a "relationship" or simpler level design.

Many of the console gamers of today didn't have the joy of playing The Dark Project brand-new and learning all the new tricks Looking Glass was teaching us. Learning to play a stealth game is what made the Thief series unique and fun... and legendary. It innovated rather than fall into a slogging step with medocre games.