YOUR THOUGHTS & WISHES & SUGGESTIONS for T4 - General Discussion

[Jameson]

What has always captured me most about the thief games is the AI. Being able to walk through the streets as if you were really living in that time is also one of the most interesting parts for me. My request would be for more freedom in the city, and maybe even a bigger city with more characters and AI and such. Whatever happens in the making of this game, I'm sure will be awesome in the end.

Im pumped!

[Bono]

Originally Posted by esme

do you ? do you know what it takes to make a small demo that would showcase the toolkit the player will have for a game ? have you ever made a mod for a game yourself ? given the development tools I could probably knock together a demo, it might take me a month or two and it probably wouldn't be very good as far as gameplay goes, but could you do the same ?

In order to make a demo that would showcase what the game looks like, one needs to make a game (engine and content) first and then strip it down to some limited demo content. This is a brief explanation.

You can not make a demo and then start making the whole game after that, it is nonsense.

[Namdrol]

Not so, Bone.
A game is built out of component parts. Built up incrementally.
I suspect the engine will currently be being "converted" to Thief, and in doing so there will be basic "demos" for the devs to test and work on, as well as to take to the accountants, managers, marketing dudes, big Japanese bosses etc.

And as it's highly likely that the engine is the Crystal Dynamics TR engine and since the Deus Ex boys have been working their socks off on it for a while, this will not be as major a task as it might appear. (Although obviously it ain't gonna be overnight.)

And if you read the post esme made, which you rudely slapped down, she said to release a training mission type demo as early as possible.
Not one right now.
She's asking for a small glimpse as soon as is feasible so we can judge and critique.
And yeah, it won't happen, (maybe) but the idea was technically valid and imo didn't deserve your response.

[Bono]

Fine, but then we are talking about different types of demos. I'm talking about the public demo, while esme and you are saying about some kind of internal tech demo. Well, that doesn't make any difference, since only insane developers would release the internal tech demo to public these days.

[esme]

you did play thief the dark project didn't you, the training mission showed the player how to control the character, how to traverse a room without being seen or heard, how to use basic weapons, how to climb ropes and swim, how the combat system worked

that's what I'm asking for, not an entire mission, the TDP training mission let the devs sort out the physics of the universe they were building, once they got that mission sorted out they could build the actual game with confidence, they then stripped it down a little, and included it in the game

you think it's insane to release something like that I think it's good commercial sense, if we think the basics are right we'll buy the game in droves and if we think something is wrong we'll let EM know about it, which is pretty much what we are here for to let EM know what we want and hopefully give them some ideas that make it into the game

[glyph07]

Originally Posted by DarknessFalls

* Curtains that move to the side like real fabric as you peek into a room from behind them. OK
* Breakable glass items (windows, vases, stained glass windows, light bulb glass casings (even ones that are on machines, or for alarms), chandaliers, sconces, clock faces, etc. And for windows/glass that can't be shattered, at least give it impact cracks if you shoot an arrow at it or blackjack it, etc. HMM...NOT SURE
* Non-objective-related machines that you can clearly read the gauges of, push buttons of and turn dials of, even if it doesn't do anything except change the sound it makes, turns some LEDs on/off, increases/decreases the pressure in the machine, or makes some racket nearby guards can hear. For those who might bash it with a sword or blackjack, at least give some dents or something. HMM...NOT SURE
* Interactions with the Tesla powered machines. Even if you can't turn them off if they're producing light, how about if you launch an arrow through the ball of energy, it interacts with the ball somehow. Maybe it distorts the ball for a sec, sends out sparks for a sec and burns up the arrow or chars it. Similarly, other energy beams and power phenomena could maybe use some interactivity so that it's not just decoration. KO
* Trees and bushes that react to your actions. Maybe have some trees you can climb up. Maybe you can break some branches off. Have bushes that actually realistically hide you; if you see foliage across your face, you'd be pretty well obscured, for instance. (I haven't seen any games effectively pull off bushes that obscure you; not even ones you think should like Rainbow Six type of games.) Trees and bushes with foliage that reacts to wind, given a gentle rustling of leaves sound and a pleasant swaying motion. OK
* Animals that do more than just walk around like robots. Give them realistic movement, sounds and AI. For example, some cats will scurry away silently, some cats will stay by for you to pet as they purr, some cats will meow as if they're hungry and circle around your leg, etc. (Yes, I want to be able to pet cats, if cats are included.) HMM...NOT SURE
* Furniture that you can interact with. Have more desk drawers that can be opened, more armoire doors that can be opened, chairs and couches you can sit in to watch the fireplace (or pet a cat, or look at the snow lit up by moonlight falling in the window). OK
* Glowing mushrooms that you can pluck from the ground, or smash with your blackjack; or at least that wiggle when you try to interact with them. DON'T CARE REALLY
* Fireplace tools you can pick up and stoke a fire, where the logs roll over and cause the other side of logs to burn, or embers shift around.* Dust particles in moonbeams that react when you swing your blackjack through them. OK
* Crickets and other creatures (frogs, birds, etc.) that you can actually see, rather than just hear as a background noise. I want to see evidence of what I hear. WHY NOT?
* Tiny, tiny bugs that realistically and randomly crawl around on the ground (i.e., spiders, ants, etc.). Go into your backyard or a park and look down at a one-square foot area of the grass. I bet you'll find some critter crawling around. The fact that no games yet have tiny tiny bugs realistically crawling around anywhere on the ground is interesting. Everything in games (aside from swarms of flies or fireflies) seems to be the size of king-sized scarab beetle (TDS) or large; or anything small is in clusters or swarms. I'd just like some random bugs in mansion lawns, or in dusty crypts. I don't necessarily need to interact with these guys, as their appearance would be nice enough. Being able to kill one would just be icing on the cake. DON'T CARE
(...)
* My point is not that players "should" break tree branches off or should bash a bunch of machines up. Rather, it's to give the player an environment that is more believable and perhaps more realistic to be in. And if a player randomly chooses to interact with what they're seeing, then I want that thing to have a satisfying reaction. I love thinking to myself, "I can't believe the developers thought of this little thing and put this in!" It's just that "Ahaa!" moments like this, when discovered, can score some points with me. Assuming the overall game is awesome, adding subtle things like this could bring some amazing polish. And even if some of these things did NOT go in, I'd be okay. The game is solid enough on its own. I'm just trying to think of ways to maybe enhance the experience even more. OK
* PS: Some of these may be tough to implement without the T3 body awareness. I'll say now, for the record, that I don't want body awareness. I don't want to look down and see my feet when I'm standing in a tree, or legs when I'm sitting on a couch. DON'T AGREE I LIKE TO SEE GARRETT UNDER EVERY ANGLE
* PPS: As an unrelated side note, I hope Thief 4 keeps the tradition of keeping KO'd and dead bodies lying around through the whole mission. Hiding a body and having it mysteriously go away is not good. (I think it goes without saying, but you can never be too safe.) DON'T AGREE I LIKE THE FACT I HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT HIDING THEM, BESIDES IT'S A REAL PROBLEM IF U ARE A THIEF.

Thanks, really great post!

[jtr7]

Oon Kuka Oon!
\o/

[Pieter888]

Originally Posted by jtr7

Oon Kuka Oon!
\o/

this comment explains in every thief 4 related way of improving everything that can be so I stand behind this reply a full 100%. I hope other people also see the enlightenment the quote that jtr7 stated brings you.
The builder envy's you. The trickster sees you as a god.
Let us clear a path for our jtr7, so that he -bringer of the light- can save the souls of countless taffers every day with his wise words of wisdom and righteousness.
May the deeds and words of jtr7 remember you to stay on the path of yummies!

\o/

[Bono]

Originally Posted by esme

you did play thief the dark project didn't you, the training mission showed the player how to control the character, how to traverse a room without being seen or heard, how to use basic weapons, how to climb ropes and swim, how the combat system worked

that's what I'm asking for, not an entire mission

Do you realize that in order to implement character movement, physics system, weapons, stealth mechanics, combat system and all other things you are talking about, the developers need months and months and months of hard work? This is the work on the core gameplay systems very well into the production stage. There can be no U-turn at this point, unless they are making Duke Nukem Forever.

[Platinumoxicity]

Originally Posted by jtr7

Oon Kuka Oon!
\o/

"I am who I am!"? What's the deal with the finnish there?

edit: oh it was that dude's nick on the previous page. I almost thought that you knew finnish.

[jtr7]

Hee heeee!

[Lost Taffer]

So, I was thinking maybe T4 could just be TDP and TMA remade with a new, glorious engine with a few changes for each mission so it would not be an absolute carbon copy. More of a remake in style, storyline and some level design. Just a suggestion so don't rip my head off please. I was thinking Garrett might need an introduction to a whole new generation of fans before getting another sequel. What better way to do so than to have Garrett at his best which was TDP and TMA.

[jtr7]

My only concern is that your post will be seen as fuel for the "So you wanna 'nother remake/rehash/rebirth/retread" crowd, instead of a post of trepidation that EM can top the trilogy, and so, a wishing for a rebirth to ensure Thief has increased longevity and not a travesty against the soul.

[Mugsey05]

First of all, I want to disagree with suggestions that 3rd person perspective from TDS should be removed from the game. I enjoyed having the option when I wished to use it, and I found myself replaying the game several times to take advantage of the opportunity to play the game from different angles, as it gave the game a different feel depending on which angle you played from. Not saying that the entire game should be only 3rd person, but why remove the option?

Frankly, I have trouble understanding the intense hatred many seem to have for Deadly Shadows. Yes, the city aspect could have been significantly better, but there were some pretty extenuating circumstances (the imminent closure of the developing company, for instance). Aside from the city, I thought everything else was well done, and I think some of the missions in TDS were some of the better missions from the series (The Cradle, for instance, was probably one of the most brilliantly developed missions in any game I've ever played. Sunken Citadel and Seaside Mansion was quite good as well).

That being said, wish list would include:
1) More realistic environments (topic has been beaten to death in previous posts, many of which had excellent suggestions, so I'll leave it at that).
2) A more fully developed, expansive, open city to explore and loot. There were a lot of houses in TDS that were inaccessible, and the city was rather small compared to the massive size that was implied by previous games. The city should be vast, and every house should be accessible and unique (meaning the inside of every house should not look exactly the same).
3) Less of an emphasis on supernatural elements. Doesn't mean they shouldn't be included, but only to a certain point. Now that Garret has saved the world from the Trickster God and something that almost resembles a lich, it might be nice to see something a little more like we saw in T2, more of an emphasis on human threats. Maybe something political to add another dimension to the city?
4) Keep a 3rd person option.

[jtr7]

You asked "Why?" Really?

You say there's "intense hatred many seem to have"? Must we repeat ourselves?

The intense hatred is among a few. The intense disappointment and frustration--BIG difference--is among the many. It's reeeeaal important you recognize the distinctions and read more carefully, as the hows and whys of disappointment, frustration, and yes, all the way to disgust and hatred, have been explained to death, and it's now undead, and won't stay down.

No one who claims to have read the forums can state they don't know "why" about any of these five-year-old arguments, repeated a hundred times in here.

[xAcerbusx]

Originally Posted by jtr7

The intense hatred is among a few. The intense disappointment and frustration--BIG difference--is among the many.

Well, perhaps you should make a distinction between 'Many' and 'Most'.

Given that Deadly Shadows is the best selling Thief title (as far as I know - feel free to correct me if I am mistaken), it's unlikely that MOST people hate it or were even remotely disappointed by it.

[Namdrol]

Originally Posted by xAcerbusx

...Given that Deadly Shadows is the best selling Thief title (as far as I know ...

xAcerbusx, have you any figures or quotes to verify this?
I have looked long and hard and haven't been able to find any figures for the Thief's.
We've go em for some of Eidos' portfolio but not the most important one.
Any info here would be much appreciated.

[jtr7]

"Best-selling" doesn't mean diddly, doesn't mean excellence. I'll never forget how the first TDS shipment was the only shipment on shelves in all the stores here, while the older titles persisted longer until they ended up on the discount displays, continuing on after TDS could only be found (barring ordering it) in used item stores. Bigger marketing budget, hype about incomplete trilogy from the dead-LGS actually getting completed, finally, more avenues of getting the word out, like using new services on the Internet that weren't available before to target more people than before, more articles being written, even columnists treating the event as a curiosity. It's like I've been talking about: A big spike at the beginning with a sharp tapering off.

It's the repeat sales and word-of-mouth that are better indicators of success.


Something I really want to find out is how many awards, and for what, LGS and ISA garnered for all their games. Not primarily as a comparison, though that factors in, but as pride in the LGS legacy. I'm not sure where to look as my efforts have proved almost fruitless, and usually vague like:

The original Thief game, Thief: The Dark Project redefined first person gaming and established an entirely new genre of stealth based game play. The critically and commercially acclaimed Thief series has won numerous awards and accolades including GameSpy Hall of Fame, GameSpot Greatest Games of All Time and The Academy of Interactive Arts And Sciences Outstanding Achievement in Character and Story Development.

I know TDP won for best use of sound, and at least one other.

[decap]

I love the mechanist in Thief 2, I like those robots that walk around and how they sound!

[Lost Taffer]

Originally Posted by xAcerbusx

Well, perhaps you should make a distinction between 'Many' and 'Most'.

Given that Deadly Shadows is the best selling Thief title (as far as I know - feel free to correct me if I am mistaken), it's unlikely that MOST people hate it or were even remotely disappointed by it.

(Assuming that this is true as I cannot find any sales numbers for the Thief games)

Seriously... this is your argument? Obviously you are completely deaf to the legitimate complaints regarding TDS. Aside from that let's look at this logically. TDS was released for multiple platforms with a bit more advertising push than either TDP or TMA which was released for PC's only with less advertising. Do you think this had anything to do with sales? How about the fact that TDS had the best of the series (TMA) as its' lead in. Think that might have given TDS a bit of a bump it may not have deserved? In that time span from TDP/TMA till TDS came out the number of ppl who owned PC's rose at a slower rate than ppl who owned PC's. In other words there was a much greater ratio of ppl for whom TDS was their first time with the Thief experience. TDS was a GOOD GAME. True. It was the weakest of the Thief series and left many long time friends disappointed. ALSO TRUE! See how it can be both? Hell, I bought a copy and have played it through twice. Does that invalidate my complaints about its' shortcomings?
Just because a sequel made a tad more than a previous series installment does not mean that sequel did not have valid flaws. Counting only money earned from the original release dates, Return of the Jedi earned more than either A New Hope or The Empire Strikes Back. So by your logic, we should ignore the obvious disappointment of the Star Wars fan base had with ROTJ and focus only on the money. Fact is ROTJ was a disappointment but there were other market factors involved that pushed its numbers up. ROTJ was distibuted on more screens than either of the first 2 movies. More distribution means more sales... kinda like TDS being released for multiple platforms. ROTJ had the best of the series (TESB) as its' lead in. Sound familiar?
Like jtr7, I'm sick to death of this topic. After this post I'm done talking about it. Most TDP/TMA fans were disappointed with TDS for reasons that have been discussed time and time again. If you loved TDS, fine, great, go build an altar to it, play it till your thumbs fall off, I could care less. But don't give me the same tired arguments that its FANTASTIC and us older fans are just a small minority who wail and nash their teeth at the mere mention of TDS.

[Vae]

Originally Posted by jtr7

The intense hatred is among a few. The intense disappointment and frustration--BIG difference--is among the many. It's reeeeaal important you recognize the distinctions and read more carefully, as the hows and whys of disappointment, frustration, and yes, all the way to disgust and hatred, have been explained to death, and it's now undead, and won't stay down.

Originally Posted by Lost Taffer

Like jtr7, I'm sick to death of this topic. After this post I'm done talking about it. Most TDP/TMA fans were disappointed with TDS for reasons that have been discussed time and time again.

I'm tired of fighting that same old zombie again and again too...but ya know this ain't gunna be the last time it comes back for more...

[Oon Kuka Oon]

I think that a city to explore between missions would add some problems.
- People would eventually get bored to moving in a same place again and again.
- If you can go back to tool shop again and again, should you be able to keep the cash you don't spend? Then you should be able to carry tools you don't use over a mission. This means that you'd get more and more tools and missions become easier and easier.
- etc.
I think that it's best to stick with the original games - just sreen where you can buy extra gear (which is only limited number available) with cash you earned in previous mission.
In the original games were missions such "Lord Bafford's manor", "Assassins", "Thieves' Guild", "The Lost City", "Framed" and "Life of the Party", where you started from city streets and had to gain entrance to place you were up to rob. This idea could be used and build some city around the proper mission area and put the player searching an entrance (there could be also more than one).

More about flaws of TDS and correcting them:
Jumping Health gems; It makes no sense that you can't see them if you aren't losing or gaining health. Also, it reminds you it's only a game and breaks the atmosphere. Just put them to plain view as it was in the original games.
All those effects when choosing weapon: It breaks the atmosphere. Just put the chosen weapon to plain view as in the original games.
Loot percentage system: You shouldn't give the player any idea of how much loot there is in the mission. Just tell how much he has in cash. Also the loot objectives should just tell how much player has to get in cash. And don't always put to objectives the same percentage of loot player has to get. Otherwise he'll eventually guess the percent he has to always get and gets an idea of how much there is in the mission. Just make it as it was in the original games.
The dagger: Its only real use is assasinating Hammer Haunts. I think putting a dagger was because people thought a big sword would make it hard to sneak. This was mainly because people had mistaken Garrett's sword to be longsword. In TMA it was clearly shortsword. Surely it can be hid under a cape. Bring the shortsword back! You can use it to defend yourself.
How did Garrett forget how to swim? That's just crazy. No swimming was probably main reason the Sunken Citadel wasn't sunken at all?
Garrett ain't super hero, what were those climbing gloves about? Bring the rope arrow back!

I've also realized why TDS wheels so different than original games. The atmosphere is different. The setting of original games is cynical steampunk fantasy world. The setting of TDS was half-medieval world with some inventions. It wasn't cynical, it was good-versus-evil world.
Bring back the cynicism of the original games! Everyone is evil and looking for their own good. Keepers think the world must be kept in balance. You need some cynics to your team!

I'll probably still add something later.

[Basso]

Originally Posted by Lost Taffer

So, I was thinking maybe T4 could just be TDP and TMA remade with a new, glorious engine with a few changes for each mission so it would not be an absolute carbon copy. More of a remake in style, storyline and some level design. Just a suggestion so don't rip my head off please. I was thinking Garrett might need an introduction to a whole new generation of fans before getting another sequel. What better way to do so than to have Garrett at his best which was TDP and TMA.

I share the jtr7's concern on this. What might work well is what Valve did with Halflife: when they released Halflife 2, they also released an updated version of the original game using the new Source engine. It's comparatively cheap to do, since the level design, sounds, etc., are already all there, and the publishers know that the fans will buy it.

Although I hope and expect that Thief 4 will be a new set of adventures, I would also cheerfully pay for versions of TDP and TMA that were graphically updated, but identical in gameplay to the originals.

[Hecateus]

Basso,
TMA was supposed to have been Goldified like TDP Gold was. That should still occur. Also some minor changes to better integrate the series stories might be in order.

TDS would require significant overhaul if it were to be redone. (rope arrow, swimming etc)

[Psychomorph]

I have to say that the constant TDP/TMA/TDS comparisons get old, slightly.

TP

TA

TS

T4

Let the smilies beat it out!