YOUR THOUGHTS & WISHES & SUGGESTIONS for T4 - General Discussion

[jtr7]

Heh. We've had threads on this, so you're not alone.

Well, you know if you speculate on where he puts all his gear and the lack of realism, you can't neglect to consider where he puts a hundred kilos of loot.

[SuperVGA]

The 4 things i liked the most about each of the three thief games,
of which i liked thief 1 and 2 the better (evenly):

Thief - DP:

- The mystic atmosphere contained in every level.
- The varying missions (Down in the Bonehoard, Assassins, Constantine's)
- The varying enemies (Goosebumping spiders, Supernatural undead, Fanatic Hammerites)
- The novelty level of a first person sneaker.

Thief 2 - MA:

- The introduction of two new "environments", both conflicting with the previous one.
- The varying missions still, (Shipping and Receiving, Casing the Joint, Ambush!, Precious Cargo, Life of the Party)
- The new "manufacture" concept. Welding mechanics together, Molding key items.
- The scouting orb. - Everything about the scouting orb is great. It should've been noticable, though.

Thief 3 - DS:

- Fleeing from something and, knowing the district, decide to hide in a certain spot and wait.
- The fantastic soundtrack. I still like listening to the credits and the beating tune from Ramirez' Cellars, though
- The Cradle and the Seaside Manor. Deserves their own line as they surpass other missions in Thief 3.
- Erm... alright, three bes enough.

Following is not argued for and very objective. Sorry about that, It'd take up too much space.

DO:

Keep the starry nightsky, the tapestries, confined spaces and carpets(!).
Bring back the moss, vine and rope arrows.
Keep lots of little, pointless internal notes to employees / guards etc.
Supernatural stuff is great, just remember; it needs to have a past. A described series of events.
Let it stay scary. Use Spiders, intense music etc. I loved the reptile dwelling below the harbor in thief 3.
Make funny guard conversations
Make a deep and interesting plot.

DON'T:

Make glowing treasures (I'd like to go: "Wooow! Nice service they keep here! Darn, it's just cheap clay!")
Do a linear, predictable relations with factions owning each their district in such an obvious manner. (Black for Zaibatzu)
Give the player so much treasure! Balance it depending on the missions. Stealing rich-lady tiaras 24-7 is way too easy!
Use another narrator than Russell. He's really great, and I think
he belongs to the thief francise.
Follow the unoriginal "next master thief" as approached in the DS ending. I'd rather see a slightly older Garrett.
Create a huge city only to find every door/window/wall looks just about the same.
Go large on the plot like the ancient evil god from Thief 3. (Caduca and the prophecies were great though)

The key words in thief is atmosphere, map variations and story.

[Thief4ever]

As long as the same voice for Garrett and the typical music and affects are used, they have at least 50% of my money so far. The thief series is about the best type of game play there is. It is relaxing, scary, physically demanding of your keyboarding skills and intense as well. The game can last for weeks if not months as you can easily strength out a level just by going around and looking at things etc. I hope and pray they will keep the "Medieval Retro" environment like the previous three games and not some futuristic version. If they do, I will probably end up not buying it.

[Hecateus]

It seems that with the erasing of the key texts of the Keepers, the end of the Not-Yets, etc. There are no more apparent prophesies to fulfill. This would suggest a perfect time to bring multiple endings and possibly a non-linear story to the Thiefsieverse. Garret must be actually burdened with deciding his fate and that of others on his own recognizance. ...and suffer the consequences.

(see Dragon Age: Origins, for examples)

[gilleys]

I'm so glad your continuing the story. I played all 3 and have to say, I was extremely excited when I found out about Thief 4.
I loved 1&2 and was hoping 3 would deliver that similar experience, but when it failed to do so, I held out hopes for Thief 4.

As far as ideas for Thief 4; Definately a good starting point would be start with the same aspects that made 1 and 2 so good. The level design, story line, voice acting, sound engine and attention to detail. One of the most memorable things about Thief: Dark Project was the atmosphere, the vibe of the game. It had an undeniably midevil feel to it. When I got done playing through a level, I felt like taking out the neighbors lamp posts with water arrows..

I dont envy the Dev team, you have some big shoes to fill, but It can be done. Maybe with a little luck and an honest desire to create a truly memorable game, Thief 4 will be the game we've been waiting for, for over a decade.

[dolby67]

HEY Canada Montreal love your guys work with Prince of P and Assassin's Creed..
I would like to see Thief mix up with Assassin's Creed i mean like i love the Assassin's creed movement the ability to climb building and stuff and open environment in city. Assassin creed guy was more of a thief with his slick moves so i would've love to see that in Thief 4. To move around in city and go from one city to other. also the ability to climb and smoke bombs and stuff like that flash bomb is great but i would love to see some new weapons. also more looting seeking in spots. also would like to see some day i know he only robs at night but it would be nice to see sun lol.. where he sneaks in house and makes it dark draw curtan and stuff like that.

I hope this game will do better than both the thief and would be better also if you guys could have online play where we could have guild and rob each other and improve weapons would be awesome. or be guards and the other guys could be thief and would have to rob us without out us be able to catch them or something stuff like that.

[evilblizz]

Originally Posted by dolby67

HEY Canada Montreal love your guys work with Prince of P and Assassin's Creed..

Assassin's Creed is Ubisoft Montreal ..... Thief is Eidos )

and Montreal is an city in France .... )

[jtr7]

Eidos-Montréal is in Montréal, Quebec, Canada, and has never ever released a title before. Deus Ex 3 will be their very first. They do have devs that worked on Assassin's Creed working for them now, so I repeat myself when I say, "Don't slick him up! Make him able to do things any fit man can do without a lot of effort, but nothing super, nothing acrobatic, nothing 'cool' to look at. A man, vulnerable, imperfect, but imperfect as a man, not a machine simulation's quirks."

[dolby67]

Originally Posted by bambini
I've had a quick scan, and thought I would summarise what I see to be the general consensus on Garrett's movement/acrobatics, etc. should be, based on the threads listed here.

Porssible movement styles have been compared to Mirror's Edge and Assassin's Creed by some, but most people don't seem to want parkour-style movement from Garrett.

Essentially, Garrett is a thief, a master of hiding in the shadows, picking locks and stealing that which cannot be stolen. He is not an acrobat or a ninja, and his movement style is slow and steady: knida sneaky rather than leaping and running all over the place.

From reading thrrough the previous threads, it looks like we want Garrett to be able to do basic, not overly flashy movements, and very little else. If the average (reasonably fit) person could do it, then it's acceptable. If not, then we will give it a miss thank you very much.

Things like being able to mantle up ledges (whihc he can do in T1/2/DS), pehaps launch himself over a table when running and jumping at it and maybe kick off a wall to reach a higher point, but that's about it. Even being able to perform a forward roll after leaping between buildings or to nip under a low pipe seems contraversial.

Basically, it seems like we (as Thief gamers) would a balance between things that are useful and practical in our theivery, without turning our protagonist into a medieval Spider-man. After all, leaping between the roofs of two buildings a street apart is dangerous and you will probably fall down and get hurt

Originally Posted by jtr7

"

well first i would like the slow pace but when you getting away i would like to see these things. a fast pace you could put a button in like number "9" or something which could switch between fast pace movement and slow pace a thief also has to run from grads and hide sometimes or someone try to catch you jump over wall's. but open inverment i love T1 and T2 but they old games and since then there been lot of games with open inverment and if they come back to that colose one misson inverment it will be such a bore and i would not like to play it because it be a step back so should have a inverment like Assassin's Creed

Eidos-Montréal is in Montréal, Quebec, Canada, and has never ever released a title before. Deus Ex 3 will be their very first. They do have devs that worked on Assassin's Creed working for them now, so I repeat myself when I say, "Don't slick him up! Make him able to do things any fit man can do without a lot of effort, but nothing super, nothing acrobatic, nothing 'cool' to look at. A man, vulnerable, imperfect, but imperfect as a man, not a machine simulation's quirks.

[Voodoo]

I had a thought of being able to purchase furniture and stuff for Garretts house and maybe just an idea here be able to purchase property throughout the game with loot see where im going?

[esme]

sounds like a crossover to the sims, sorry but it doesn't appeal to me at all

[Avan Madisen]

Ok, I've played and overplayed Thief Gold and Thief 2, completed almost every mission on Expert, loved Looking Glass Studios for creating such a wonderful series and I still keep an old Pentium 3 machine with a Voodoo 5 card and Windows 98 for playing games like these.

My gripes with Thief 3 were as follows:

Too easy - My first play through was on expert mode, and that felt like I was playing on an 'easy' mode compared to Thief Gold and Thief 2. Since then I've had no real desire to play it again, no challenge.

No 'No Killing' - One of the greatest challenges of the first Thief games was that you weren't allowed (on the higher difficulty mode) to kill, it made some missions an absolute nightmare, but I've never felt such a sense of reward for completing a mission under such strict rules! I appreciate that many gamers are sadists and enjoy watching virtual blood and gore (not that Thief 3 had much), what I'm talking about is the challenge of gameplay, get in and out with all the loot and without anyone knowing you were there! I'll take great gameplay over blood and gore anyday!

3rd person camera - No, no, no, no, NO! The first 2 Thief games were '1st person' games, not '3rd person', whoever decided Thief 3 needed a 3rd person camera should've been shot as soon as they suggested it! 3rd person stealth games don't offer as much challenge as a 1st first stealth game, this is what made the original Thief games unique and challenging.

Scale - There were single missions in Thief 2 that were bigger then the entire city of Thief 3, it just felt wrong.

Befriending the Enemy - Ok, making friends with the Pagans isn't a stretch of the imagination, heck Garrett worked with them in Thief 2, but the Hammerites?!?!?! The Hammers hate all 'evildoers' no matter how minor their crimes, and Garrett is a major criminal in their books!

Climbing Gloves - Nice idea, but too free in some ways and too restricted in others. Not something I'd like to see returning.

Fences - 'Black Market Burther', am I the only person who thought this girl was little too much? Not only was the script for her poor but the acting was atrocious, I've heard better from badly dubbed Anime! (and that's saying something) Seriously though, the fences, although a nice idea, they were badly planned and badly implemented. A professional Thief like Garrett wouldn't be seen dead talking to pretenders and wannabes like them! - If the new team can do it right, I think this could be an excellent feature!

Swimming - Or should I say, the lack of? Swimming was a major part of the first 3 missions in the original Thief (and many others as well). But in Thief 3, Garrett can't swim, he instantly dies when he hits the water...

Lockpicking - Although I liked the idea of a more interactive lockpicking element, the implimentation was so crude I'd say it looked like they developed a basic one to test the idea and left it at that. Like the fences, nice idea, but badly done.


Now what I'd like to see from Thief 4.

Return of a bit of Tomb Raiding - 'Down in the Bonehorde' is still one of my favourite missions!

BIG Missions - Everyone remembers the huge missions from Thief 2, these still hold huge challenge even by today's standards over 10 years later!

Write around the Thievery - One of the things I noted from the 'Making of Thief 2' documentary on the Thief Gold disc, was that in Thief they had a great story, so they built the missions around the pregression of that story. The problem with that was many of the later missions became a bit repeatative. For Thief 2 however, they had their level designers sit down and just blitz at 'what would make a great Thief mission?'. They produced loads of great ideas and were able to wrap the story around them, making for a wonderful game! I suggest the new team do that as well!

Not too much new tech - It would be very easy to go overboard with new ideas for tools and gadgets, but what was in the first 2 games was great. Only add new things if they would really work, not because they sound great on paper.

More Scary Bits - Almost all of my favourite Thief missions, are the scary ones, the Shalebridge Cradle mission in Thief 3 is the only part of the whole game I adore, simply because it kept me nervous right from when I entered the building! I love games that do that, System Shock 2, the entire Project Zero (Fatal Frame to you americans) series and the Silent Hill series. Although, I'd say to take inspiration from Japanese horror, they do it best!

Climbing - The climbing in Assassin's Creed is still wonderful to play, if something like this could be done for Thief, it would certainly make the game very interesting. On the flip-side however I can see it being very difficult to impliment in a way that would work with how Thief played originally. Even so, I'd like the new team to consider trying it, and publish the results (either in demo or video form) regardless of whether they use it in the final game or not.

AI's that can see more then just the player - With the advent of realtime shadows that Thief 3 made use of, a new gameplay element emerged. The fact you can see a guard's shadow from around a corner gives you a advantage as they can't see your shadow! I would love to see Thief 4 AI's that can see not only the player's shadow, but the silhouette as well. For instance, you may be in complete darkness, but if there is a bright light down the corridor, you may obscure that, Guards would know 'someone' is there. also, your shadow may fall out of a doorway, and a guard could notice the shadow of a person is there and investigate. If no one answers them, they would become suspicious.

Garrett's Voice - Do whatever it takes to get the original actor to do it, he was excellent!


Finally, things I don't want to see.

Favouring Console Versions over PC - Thief 3 suffered on PC because development was concentrated on making the XBox version work rather then the PC version. This has happened quite often when a game is made for both console and PC at the same time. I'd prefer to buy the PC version, but only if it isn't ruined in favour of the console versions. Like Thief 3.

Gimics over Gameplay - I see too many games these days that exist purely for their gimics rather then good gameplay. Assassin's Creed was great because the gameplay worked, there wasn't a huge amount in the game other then the main plot, but it was an excellent ride while it lasted.

3rd Person Camera - I mentioned it above, and I'll mention it again. Thief was a supposed to be a series of '1st person' stealth games, don't make the same mistake twice!

Prop Buildings - Garrett is a thief, not an admirer of modern achitecture, if the level designers put a building somewhere, it should be possible to break in and loot it. Easy to break in buildings shouldn't have much loot, while difficult ones should be reasonably loaded. The most loot should only be available in the mansions and huge buildings, some of which would be mission buildings. No building should be just a useless prop!


I'm looking to this game, regardless!

PS: erm, sorry but I didn't intend to write an essay this long...

[Hopeless]

I would like to see a return of a lot of the voice actors. For me, it was the good voice acting (at least in 1 and 2) that really drew me in. Benny the guard in particular (and the other one too, but his name eludes me) were excellent. I think it'd be neat if these two voice actors played a bigger part in the game, say like, maybe two detectives charged with hunting down Garrett who appear now and again throughout the game.

Also:
atmosphere
huge levels
slight horror feel

[Reconne]

I think Thief 4 should be done 3rd person view. Example Assassin Creed, anyone who has played the game knows how easy it was to jump around the roofs and walk in the crowd. Same mechanics and physics would make the movement nice and easy, but should be done slower in thief game. Specially climing the walls should be slow, and easy to be spotted, so that gamers would not use the roofs all the time and use building walls for escape easy or to avoid the guards.

And if u play in 3rd person view, its easier to see the shadows lines and see yourself walking in the shadows so that you see that you are enough hidden from guards. And no those light things in yours HUD that shows are you hidden or not, but to see yourself are you hidden enough to avoid the guards. Slow movements and walk in shadows are the keypoints. But the first person view should be in game too, to explore things around you etc.

This is only my opinion. And sorry for my bad english i hope you understand what i try to mean.
I dont want it to be Assassin Creed copy, but i used it as example about how you can move in the game.

[jtr7]

Whoa, Reconne. Expect hostility in these here parts, for being pro-3rd-person and less rooftop action.



Hopeless: A large percentage of the voices were done by the LGS/ION employees themselves, so they probably won't be back for voice work.

For the classic male voices, Stephen Russell did Garrett, Benny/Dumb Guard, elderly Hammerite Priest, and civilians/other, as well as Karras and Raoul the Hermit. And he was hired only for his voice (and 'cause he was awesome).

Dan Thron, Thief's cutscene artist, concept artist (not TDS, though), boxart/manual art (not TDS), also voiced Keepers (the one who talks to Garrett in Escape! during his rescue, and talks with him in the final cutscene of TDP/Gold), Smart Guard (Benny's straight man), another guard ("Evening Dante..."), The Eye, one of the two voice sets for the Apebeasts in both games, the original Orland from TMA, Ramirez, Brother Renault, and Cutty. He did both guards in the famous Life of the Party archer fight.

Terri Brosius did the voice of Viktoria, the Pagan child Lily, Lauryl, the child Gamall (TDS only), the girl in TDS's final cutscene, the Widow Edwina Moira, and a fence/store.

Most major voices in all the games were done by Stephen Russell, Daniel Thron, and the devs themselves, including Terri Brosius. But many plot-specific supporting characters were hired from outside.

Nate Wells, who did some level design work, did the voice of the Keeper that recruits and trains Garrett (now called Artemus by fans), did the voice of Keeper Nate (called Artemus by fans) who did the main talking with Garrett in the cutscene before Eavesdropping and the final cutscene of TMA, and yes, he did Artemus in TDS.

Eric Brosius, sound designer on all the games (though not the primary sound designer on TDS), did the voices of the Statues, and a Kurshok voice-set.

Joffrey Spaulding did the voice of Constantine, the other Apebeast voice set, a Hammerite, and "additional". Hired only for his voice.

Sam Babbitt did the voice of Truart, Brother Artus ("The Watcher is ready and operational.") and actually did the strongest sounding Mechanist male ("Hearken Mechanists!), and Sheriff Gorman Truart. Hired only for his voice.

Nancy Taylor did the voice of a Mechanist and the original child Translator Gamall (before we knew her name, before TDS), as well as "additional". Hired only for her voice.

Esra Gaffin did the voice of the original Caduca (before we knew her name, before TDS). Hired only for her voice.

Edward J. Moore III filled in some additional. Hired only for his voice.

Karen Saltus did the voice of Jenivere and additional. Hired only for her voice.

Carole Simms did the voice of a guard. Hired only for her voice.


Most of the TDS voices were hired from outside, but Nate Wells and Dan Thron kept their old roles, and of course, Terri Brosius did a lot of work, too. More than half of the devs, testers, programmers for the older titles chipped in with voice work and providing physical acting and silhouettes for the movies.

[FerrPirate]

Game in all classical traditions of Thief, thats all I ask for) Save voices and funny dialogs And I hope something will done with guards and others, wich falls in such a strange positions like they have no bones in body. More different faces and dresses for peasants..aaand... I dont know.. May be in some mission Garret finally will go out to the city in the afternoon!? This could be greate!!!!!

[ElDanio]

What makes the thief series different from other stealth games is it's realistic environment (with regards to sound, lighting, and movement). You truly feel like a thief in a dark cold castle with your blood pumping and a hyper sensitive attention to sound. Those moments in which you skip from one shadow to another knowing full well that the guard you can hear coming can show up at any time can't be beat. That being said, here are some critiques on the series and a few new ideas.

The biggest problem I had with Dark Project were the zombies in the non scary levels. Without the creepy ambiance, they were more annoying and out of place than scary. Respectively, there were too many pure monster levels, although it didn't annoy me as much as some other players. Hitting things with the sword, like spiders, took a while to get used to. The thing I liked the most was the rich story development with fantastical elements while not being over the top. Overall (and since it was so innovative in it's gameplay), it was truly groundbreaking and I couldn't get enough of it.

The Metal Age perfected the previous game style by making everything a little better. The new mechanical tools were great adding depth to the gameplay. The only critique I have is the omission of the "scary level". Thief is already scary enough as it is, since no one wants to be caught and killed by a bunch of guards. By adding a spooky environment to deal with, you end up with one heck of a level (no more than one level though, or else you end up pissing your pants and quitting the game). I also found the story line less intriguing since it lost much of the pagan universe of the first Thief. I like the idea of Garret attempting to live his secluded life as a thief but being tangled, much to his dismay, into outwardly and magical plots of human destruction. By the end of the game, you have mastered the stealth technique, so adding a monstrous baddy to deal with makes things new and exciting.

Deadly Shadows was all in all a good game but had more issues than it's predecessors. Third person, in my opinion, is pointless. Thief is about feeling like you're in the game, not playing it. 3rd person only ruins that feeling and therefore, ruins the game (which is why I never used it). Exploration would have been great if you could break into almost anyone's houses (like Oblivion) and steal their precious family treasures . Also, more side quests would have been fun. The climbing gloves didn't make much sense (why would gloves make it easier to climb brick walls?) and were exploitable because they took no skill to use. The graphics were great and the lighting amazing. As always, the artistry and the mix of all the elements came together nicely to make crisp and sleek game. I have to say though, my favorite part was the cradle level. I am not one that is easily scared, maybe more when I was younger, but now... I can usually care less about spooky games. Let me tell you, that level scared the living shiitake mushrooms out of me!!! If there isn't a level like that in Thief 4, I will be extremely disappointed.

Thief 4 should maintain the same gameplay as it's predecessors while increasing the quality of AI, bettering the graphics, and continuing the rich story. New equipment should be added but should involve skill to use (no damn spiderman gloves!). Maybe you should consider making customizable arrows, like adding poison to a broad arrow or building completely new ones from material you can find in the levels. It would also be cool if you increased the depth of lock picking. An explorable world should only be implemented if it is truly explorable. You could also make the world more dynamic by adding even more physics (running into a table might knock over a glass that shatters on the floor making you think: "Ahhhhhhhh crap..."). Force more tense moments on the player by adding some inevitable events (ie. having a guard walk in on you and having to make a quick escape). Make a true maze level, that could be interesting. Most of all, DON'T PUT ANY EFFORT INTO 3RD PERSON!

All in all, I have very high hopes for this game and cannot wait for its release (let alone any more information than a web page that says Thi4f). Love the series guys, keep it up!

[PJMaybe]

Originally Posted by Reconne

I think Thief 4 should be done 3rd person view. Example Assassin Creed, anyone who has played the game knows how easy it was to jump around the roofs and walk in the crowd. Same mechanics and physics would make the movement nice and easy, but should be done slower in thief game.

Did Assassins Creed include lots of small dark rooms, cramped secret passages, climbing up and down chimmneys and through tunnels? If it does (and it was implemented well for play in 3rd person) then it sounds like an good idea. But please - not at the expense of 1st person play. I have not played Assassins Creed but I seem to remember it didn't get great reviews for the PC.

[Secondary]

you can't really comapre Thief and Assassins creed, two very different games.

and solving the perspective arguement is easy, include both like TDS, if you dont like either one than use the other

im pretty sure that has its own thread though

[jtr7]

Yes. And it is not that simple. 3rd will affect 1st, when 1st should never be accommodating or compromised for 3rd.

[Secondary]

not necassarily

for instance. the starwars battlefront has both 1st and 3rd peron perspectives (aleast #2 does). both are fantastic and quite independant of eachother. 1st peron has seperate animations and its own camera angle, as does 3rd.

putting both in is doable, with the right amount of patience.

[jtr7]

Extra work, yes. But no extra time to do it, see? EM's goal is a 24 month development cycle, and they won't know 'til they are much further along if they will be granted an extension by the investors--millions of dollars later.


3rd will impact 1st, taking time away from 1st to do something to pander to another group. You can't do both in the same amount of time and make both quality without borrowing time from elsewhere.

[Secondary]

yes, deadlines make everything worse. i agree. it very well may come down to simple triage.

[Hecateus]

GamaSutra Essay on whether 'immersion' and 1stPP are intrinsically inseparable.> Linky <

[jtr7]

Cool! I've never had any problems adapting to the two views. I had no idea it was this severe for some people. I've known about head-bob motion sickness, but this blows my mind. I can look at one and look at the other, and it's only the controls (which can make or break the fun for me), and any calibration of depth-perception in 2D, which takes only a few seconds. Brains wired differently. Just drop me in the world and let me go. Just don't blend the two...jiminy!