YOUR THOUGHTS & WISHES & SUGGESTIONS for T4 - General Discussion

[TheJoker]

Originally Posted by Thievingtaffer

Nothing beats Overlook Manse (Or Seaside Manor as it was called before they officially released it). That is amazing ambiance.

I have to agree. I was thinking of exactly the same. The silent piano in the background really sets the mood in that mission, there's something depressing about it which really makes the atmosphere perfect

[HellKittyDan]

The Metal Age was definitely my favourite, and I didn't like that ISA mostly removed the Victorian influence in favour of a straight medieval style.

I'm not particularly fond of caves and catacombs, at least not missions set entirely in such areas. I much prefer the thievery aspect rather than Indiana Jones stuff. I prefer mansions and museums and the like, roaming the city streets and rooftops. Wouldn't mind seeing a huge country estate.

[Gabriel]

Damn, hearing the old Thief soundtracks takes me back...

I liked TDP and T2 best (I know, big surprise). They were just so intriguing, especially the first time around playing through the missions. Looking back, Thief TDP actually feels to me more like a (successful) experiment, where Thief 2 feels like TDP, but a lot more complete and just pushed very close to perfection. I liked Thief 3 as well, but probably because I was hungry for another Thief game after playing the original two over and over again. I did like the feel of a few missions in T3 (the Cradle, the Overlook Manor come to mind), but overall it just felt unfinished and unpolished.

If I were to choose a favorite out of the three, I'd go with Thief 1. It just has a special flavor that is unforgettable. For the least favorite, I'd say Thief 3, mostly because it felt rushed. It could have been a great game, IF they wouldn't have segmented the city into all these loading zones, if they would have kept the water swimmable (one of the things in the first two that added to the immersion - no pun intended), I didn't like the climbing gloves (the rope arrow or the vine arrow would have been fine) etc.

For Thief 4, in no specific order (important ones in bold) :

• I would really like to see an up-to-date Thief 1/2 from a graphics standpoint, maybe keep the gameplay as FPS (no 3rd person view)
  
• Concentrate on the story and gameplay
• Keep the setting as it's been in the past three games (steampunk). Thief in modern setting is not Thief.
• Keep Garett as the main character (he is the heart of the game)
• Bring back rope/vine arrows, swimmable water
• If you'll be releasing T4 on multiple platforms, don't let the game suffer because of the port to the secondary platform (i.e. when porting from Xbox to PC)
• I say keep the zombies, haunts, but take out the spiders. The little bastards make my skin crawl every time I meet them in the game (especially the sounds they make)
• Bring back the secret areas of the original games. They make the game much more interesting
• Create innovative/weird/heavily atmospheric levels like Constantine's manor, The Cradle, Overlook manor, Return to the Cathedral
• Please tell me that the final title won't be THI4F...
• Keep the artistic style of the cutscenes/briefing scenes (loved both the static ones in T1/T2 and the T3 ones)
• I liked the edible food in T1/T2
• No sparkles on loot like in T3
• Perhaps rethink the ladder attachment mechanics to make it harder to fall off a building while trying to grab the ladder
• I rather liked the lockpick mechanics of T3. Would like to see something similar in T4...

There's more, but this is all I could come up with from the top of my head

Basically, the recipe for Thief 4 should be 70% Thief1/2 specific ideas/gameplay/weapons/etc. + 20% Thief 3 + 10% innovation.

Hope this makes sense.

Just my two cents' worth.

[Vladimyre]

I just have fun stealing stuff, anything that's not nailed down, and make everything blackjack able nothing like sneaksieing up on someone and giving them a good wack.

[Abelo]

First of all, let me set my point of view.

Thi4f will NOT be a clone of the first one; times have changed and market has changed. We all love the first two Thieves over Dark Shadows, but we all have to admit multiplatform is the future (the present, in fact) and titles like BioShock and Fallout 3 have showed the world that slightly casualizing old formulas is not an evil deed, and results in quality and economic viability as long as it is done right, with quality in mind instead of sales. That said, this is my small list of Do's and Dont's, for a sucessful Thi4f and it could very much be applied to DX3 too.

- DOs / WINING ATTITUDE

· Remake the core idea of the originals.
This means design should be approached from the very basis (pretty much the path taken in movies like Batman Begins or Casino Royale) - Thief was conceived like some kind of "burglar simulator", and most of its fun was based on the player's tactical superiority vs his physical weakness. Its final design and minor gameplay tweaks are not key factors, and were based on technological limits. Many of its small cool things would be weird in a modern game. Redesigning the core idea from scratch avoids taking old solutions for modern problems.

· Atmosphere is paramount in Thief; build on it.
Making the player "feel" that atmospere is not only about working on the plot and a bunch of readable notes, but about feeling you are a thief in that enormous city. Thief really looked like it wanted to put the player in a huge world; just technology wasn't up to the task. I'm not talking about making a GTA, but the small levels with frequent load times in Deadly Shadows dramatically took the player out of the world. No one gives a damn about how good the plot and factions are designed if he gets dragged out of the world. Player's "body awareness" was a promising step forward in Thief: DS, but they never developed it gameplay-wise.

· IA
Sounds obvious, but I never felt Thief: DS had built on it. The guards acting believably is key to feeling like a burglar yourself. That means that "gamey" things like "4 awareness modes" are easily spotted by the gamer, making him able to predict and exploit his enemy's behavior (humans are at least slightly unpredictable) were ok for a experimental 1998 game, but would feel "weird" in a realistic-looking 2010 AAA title.

· Periodically add gameplay features
Many modern games abuse of having a fun formula and multiplying it by the number of levels; thus the game resulting repetitive. Add a small twist, even if it is merely visual, at least once per level, so the game always feels vibrant and unexpected. Yoshi's Island is a lesson of game design in that matter.

· Exploit the Uncanny Valley
Much of the coolness in many designs, such as cameras with cherub faces, were based in an intelligent mix of realistic or beautiful features with industrial, unaesthetic stuff, resulting in a weird, uncomfortable, disturbing world.

· Humans are more fun to kill than undead or creatures
Robots are disturbing enough, and ok as long as they are not too much.

· Sound
Feeling the sound buzz surrounding you from the very Main Menu even in the load times wins. Being absolutely, deeply immerse in the atmosphere from the very second the your character appears after the loading is one of the most impressive achievements in Thief. Recently, Dead Space has built very well on it too.

DONTs / LOSING IDEAS

· Derivative design, looking to the Thief mirror for answers to every question.

· Inventories and complex HUDs should be approached with tons of caution. They are kinda necessary, but take the player out of the atmosphere. Full inventory screens like Thief: DS should be forbidden and shot on sight.

· I could live with a character other than Garrett, but Larry Lovage has showed that comercially-focused, generic characters are not loved by the player. We want his bunch of imperfections. Anyway, Garrett is neat enough, why change him.

· Load times, as short as possible, and very specially, as FEW as possible.

· Perfecting hand to hand combat is wrong idea. Having some fun with it could actually discourage the player from being subtle. Keep it clumsy and unfun to a certain extent.

· Never try to be more casual for the sake of sales. I feel it was one of the biggest flaws in Deadly Shadows. Try to be casual for the sake of good gameplay design and fun, but keeping the layers of depth - Blizzard style. Sales are a consequence.

[Nate]

Hehe, I always hated how you could take out a guard right next to his buddy, and they wouldn't notice or care...not even a 'Huh? Benny, are you going to the bathroom again? Where did you go?'.

[Buccura]

While Thief 3 (Screw calling it Thief DS) is the lesser of the series, there are some things about it I really liked, and would like to see vastly improved upon.

The two things that come to mind is the city hub concept. I liked the idea of being able to freely do some thieving between missions, and even pick up a few small side quests. If they can make the city feel bigger, and have more significant side quests, that would be awesome.

Another thing I liked is the faction system, being able to get in favor with Hammers or Pagans, though of course by actually doing deeds for them rather than just shooting moss arrows at cobble stones or killing bugs and make a loud explosion.

Anything else from Thief 3 you'd like to see carried over and improved upon?

[Danie1]

Originally Posted by acridrose

Agreed, but you can't beat that original ambiance from thief 1 that all the old-skoolers love: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUx0r...eature=related - 0:09+, that build up of synth is mesmerising!

Too true! That style is so unique, it's hard to find it in any other game. The ending music in Thief's final cut scene is also top notch.

To throw in what I'd like, it's everything that was lost in Thief DS:
-Rope arrows
-Swimmable water
-Simple lockpicking scheme that doesn't break immersion
-Simple HUD
-Lighting scheme reminiscent of the first two Thief games
-Remove "body awareness"

[cobak]

Originally Posted by mister_riz

Thief 2 by far, Looking Glass were genius's for resisting adding much in the way of 'new' stuff, they focused on excellent mission/story design and it made it by far the best game.

No/few undead please.

Thief 3's roamable city was a good idea but was poorly implemented. Either focus on this a very large amount (make it intuitive, I was pretty disgusted at the lack of loot potential and rooftops around the city generally) or if this seems too much revert back to a sequence of missions ala 1 and 2.

I loved Thief 2 and all but I think it was definitely lacking in places that scared the crap out of me. I think technology and fantasy both have their places in the Thief world and one should not be excluded or made to be just a small small part because a few people don't like them.

I'll say there should definitely be more non-monster/whatever levels, but a few would not be a bad thing!

Return to the Cathedral and The Cradle were two of the scariest levels ive played in any game ever and I would very much miss that horror if it got excluded.

Originally Posted by Gabriel

[*]I say keep the zombies, haunts, but take out the spiders. The little bastards make my skin crawl every time I meet them in the game (especially the sounds they make)

That's the point! Keep the spiders! I want my skin to crawl dammit.

[Vlad27145]

I agree completely with all except the reference to Fallout 3... that was really a low blow to a beloved franchise for me . The 3 things I mostly would like the team to focus on are AI, atmosphere (which includes sound) and story. These 3 little things are absolutely seminal for a Thief game.

[TheJoker]

I pretty much agreee with most of it

[nicked]

Originally Posted by Abelo

first two Thieves over Dark Shadows,

· Humans are more fun to kill

Well, those two wince-inducing points of credibility-reduction aside, you make some good points.

[GmanPro]

Its pretty much a given that there will be at some point a scary mission. Its the signature of all Thief games. Although I suppose Thief 2 didn't really actually have one ... just minor scary sequences

The 360 and PS3 can at least handle large levels this time around, so that much has me feeling optimistic.

Oh and combat should definitely stay clumsy and not fun. We need to discourage the player from getting caught after all. Though I do miss the old school sword. Maybe a short sword this time?

Finally, T3 really broke the immersion for me when I had to run around the mission gathering the final 3% of loot or the final 'special loot'. How is Garrett (me) supposed to know that there is some loot remaining and that its mean value is exactly 3% of the total!?!? That was just dumb about T3

[Princess_Frosty]

DO

Model Thief 4 around Thief 2
Make sure all CORRECT PC display aspect ratios are supported (4:3, 5:3 and 16:10)
Make sure FoV is set to a more common PC FoV like 90 degrees for 4:3 and 103 degrees for 16:10
Make sure widescreen is horz+ and not vert- (www.widescreengamingforum.com if you need to learn how to do it correctly)
Pay attention to the hardcore PC thief fans who love the original

DON'T

Have 3rd person
Have wall grab
Have obnoxious object highlighting
Have obnoxious arrow trails
Have loot glint
Have awkward 1st person movement (built around 3rd person)

Basically make Thief2 again with modern graphics, stick to the same design philosophies that was used for the original titles and if necessary build a completely seperate set of game mechanics for the console versions, in fact just dump the console versions all together, Thief is not a game the average console user has the skill to play :P

[Princess_Frosty]

oops doublepost, please delete

[Orest Reinn]

I prefer no sword at all. No thief (especially master thief) would use weapon heavier than a dagger.

[Princess_Frosty]

Easily Thief 2, the original was somewhat of flawed masterpiece, and the developers actually listened to the feedback and Thief 2 was pretty much flawless, both games were great for their times.

They need to basically make an extension of Thief 2 and bring it to a modern engine, I'd be most pleased with the exact same game elements from Thief 2 in the way the abilities and gameplay works, but with newer graphics.

If they inheret any of the console stink from Thief3 I'll be incredibly dissapointed.

[Orest Reinn]

I loved Metal Age especially for its city missions. Dark Project horror style was not thief-like enough. Too little shadow, I would say.

[ByLaw]

It is clear that 1&2 were significantly better than 3(DS). Look at the comments and you will see that this was due largely to a) 1&2 having such great, well-designed levels that left a lot of exploration and "open" problem solving, but were all self-contained, and b) 3 trying the "free-roam" approach and missing horribly. This is instructive.

While an open-world game sounds great in this day and age, I think it sacrifices too much in the way of detail and tries to do too much for a game like Thief. The feeling that made Thief so memorable and beloved was the immediacy of the levels, crouching silently in a dark corner for 30 seconds or longer, literally holding our breath with Garrett, hoping that a snooping, suspicious guard with sword raised wouldn't see us - I've never had another game pull that off, and it's what makes us love Thief. This is not dependent upon a huge world, but upon intelligent AI and smartly-crafted levels that provide just the right amount of light/dark, split seconds without a patrol in which to cross a lit room, that one moss arrow for the impossibly-noisy tile floor, etc. Eidos, you don't need a huge "free-roam" world to pull this off, just intelligent, exciting, memorable levels that can be self-contained. Please don't waste efforts making this a free-roam game - spend the time crafting memorable levels the ratchet up the tension like 1&2, and we will love you for it.

[jhook]

Originally Posted by Gabriel

Damn, hearing the old Thief soundtracks takes me back...

I liked TDP and T2 best (I know, big surprise). They were just so intriguing, especially the first time around playing through the missions. Looking back, Thief TDP actually feels to me more like a (successful) experiment, where Thief 2 feels like TDP, but a lot more complete and just pushed very close to perfection. I liked Thief 3 as well, but probably because I was hungry for another Thief game after playing the original two over and over again. I did like the feel of a few missions in T3 (the Cradle, the Overlook Manor come to mind), but overall it just felt unfinished and unpolished.

If I were to choose a favorite out of the three, I'd go with Thief 1. It just has a special flavor that is unforgettable. For the least favorite, I'd say Thief 3, mostly because it felt rushed. It could have been a great game, IF they wouldn't have segmented the city into all these loading zones, if they would have kept the water swimmable (one of the things in the first two that added to the immersion - no pun intended), I didn't like the climbing gloves (the rope arrow or the vine arrow would have been fine) etc.

For Thief 4, in no specific order (important ones in bold) :

• I would really like to see an up-to-date Thief 1/2 from a graphics standpoint, maybe keep the gameplay as FPS (no 3rd person view)
  
• Concentrate on the story and gameplay
• Keep the setting as it's been in the past three games (steampunk). Thief in modern setting is not Thief.
• Keep Garett as the main character (he is the heart of the game)
• Bring back rope/vine arrows, swimmable water
• If you'll be releasing T4 on multiple platforms, don't let the game suffer because of the port to the secondary platform (i.e. when porting from Xbox to PC)
• I say keep the zombies, haunts, but take out the spiders. The little bastards make my skin crawl every time I meet them in the game (especially the sounds they make)
• Bring back the secret areas of the original games. They make the game much more interesting
• Create innovative/weird/heavily atmospheric levels like Constantine's manor, The Cradle, Overlook manor, Return to the Cathedral
• Please tell me that the final title won't be THI4F...
• Keep the artistic style of the cutscenes/briefing scenes (loved both the static ones in T1/T2 and the T3 ones)
• I liked the edible food in T1/T2
• No sparkles on loot like in T3
• Perhaps rethink the ladder attachment mechanics to make it harder to fall off a building while trying to grab the ladder
• I rather liked the lockpick mechanics of T3. Would like to see something similar in T4...

There's more, but this is all I could come up with from the top of my head

Basically, the recipe for Thief 4 should be 70% Thief1/2 specific ideas/gameplay/weapons/etc. + 20% Thief 3 + 10% innovation.

Hope this makes sense.

Just my two cents' worth.

Great stuff, but might I add....................

Hey Everyone,
I was here awhile back making a few suggestions. I believe I stated a few things on the direction of Garret and where the "Deadly Shadows" left off. I look at the moment in Thief where it has captured my imagination. I find that the story line of Garret has matured into an evolution for the game engine and technique. Someone mentioned "gore" to be implimented. That's not in the Thief tradition IMHO. I think gore has it's place though. Certain points might need gore to illustrate the situation (an evil pagan ritual or a murderous monster that left his mark, ect.). I examine what made the "Thief" series soo unique. Thief incorporates the art of vurtual "stealth" and a different game play away from 1st person shooters. The object is to loot, plunder or otherwise trick your way through the game. This sets Thief apart from other 1st person games.

What I would like to see in the next installment of Thief;
a: More audio trickery....
When I was playing Deadly Shadows, the episode "The Craddle" scared the sh$$ out of me when I heard it. Running around in a haunted insane asylum with Pin Head trying to kill you, realy got me going. Now, Creative has generated the next step in audio imersion, the X-Fi! Now, the next Thief should be more scarry and imersive to listen to, as well as visually stunning.
b: More stealth weaponry and thieving abilities....
Take a look back at the history of the art of thieving. From the dark ages to Asian phylosiphy, such as the Ninja and there use of stealth and weaponry.
c: Interactive and imersive story line.....
Garret is at the center of the story, but now, has a young acolyte. Have the next Thief utilize other charactors throught the game. The acolyte could guard an area or scout ahead, or do other directed tasks. Also, Garrett has made allies, from the Hammerites to the Pagans, other charactors can interact with Garrett throughout his quests. This also opens up a multi-player possibility.
d: The City is a center of the Thief story, but there should be other areas for Garrett to explore....
Other cities and travels along the country side could be interesting. Maby, finding new weapons and/or new abilities from other towns/areas.

Just a few ideas that the Dev's may already be on to. What say you all to these ideas. I always thought that the stealth actions and sounds of Thief were one of the vital keys to it's success. The next Thief should be even more imersive and stunning. Can't wait!

(this is an exert from the Eidos forums)

[jhook]

Originally Posted by cobakka

I loved Thief 2 and all but I think it was definitely lacking in places that scared the crap out of me. I think technology and fantasy both have their places in the Thief world and one should not be excluded or made to be just a small small part because a few people don't like them.

I'll say there should definitely be more non-monster/whatever levels, but a few would not be a bad thing!

Return to the Cathedral and The Cradle were two of the scariest levels ive played in any game ever and I would very much miss that horror if it got excluded.




That's the point! Keep the spiders! I want my skin to crawl dammit.

I am with you on all of that! T3 was great actually. It lacked the punch of T1 and T2, but it had advanced in 1 major area "audio trickery"! The "Craddle" episode in T3 had some of the scariest $hit I have ever played. All of that can now be improved upon dramatically! T4 should play off of that. Make some ares dark and freak'en scary!

[GmanPro]

Originally Posted by Necros

Yes, bring back to classical gameplay and setting, no need to change everything. If EM wants to do that, call the game something else.

YES! Thank you! I just with Bethesda had the sense to rename their "Fallout" game.

It feels like we went straight out of the Golden Age of Gaming, right into the Great Depression of Gaming.

[arkhanari]

• Keep Garret as the main character. No bloody young character with Garret only being a side character.
• Have Stephen Russel do the voice acting.
• No Thief a la Assassin's creed.
• Large singular maps - no roaming world.
• No climbing gloves
• Keep it steam punk
• Keep the cutscenes in old Thief style
• Eric Brosius for ambient music
• Don't shaft PC owners by porting a crappy XBOX version that gives us loading times.
• Focus on the first person view.
• Make it more stealthy than Thief DS - go back to the roots of the series.
• Rope arrows.
• A new Life of the Party mission
• Please tell me it's not going to be called Thi4f god dammit.
• My favourite is Thief 2 - it realised what was good with Thief and just improved upon that.

[Princess_Frosty]

Originally Posted by arkhanari

• Keep Garret as the main character. No bloody young character with Garret only being a side character.
• Have Stephen Russel do the voice acting.
• No Thief a la Assassin's creed.
• Large singular maps - no roaming world.
• No climbing gloves
• Keep it steam punk
• Keep the cutscenes in old Thief style
• Eric Brosius for ambient music
• Don't shaft PC owners by porting a crappy XBOX version that gives us loading times.
• Focus on the first person view.
• Make it more stealthy than Thief DS - go back to the roots of the series.
• Rope arrows.
• A new Life of the Party mission
• Please tell me it's not going to be called Thi4f god dammit.
• My favourite is Thief 2 - it realised what was good with Thief and just improved upon that.

I love you <3

[Platinumoxicity]

An important thing that might easily be unnoticed:

In T1 and T2 there were lots of secrets and even additional objectives that could only be discovered by reading books and letters scattered around the levels, and then piecing together the clues. Bring back the vague clues. Some of the secrets were very intriguing and it was very satisfying when you finally found them. (I still haven't gotten into this so-called secret room that Brother Renault talks about in "Return to the Cathedral" )