YOUR THOUGHTS & WISHES & SUGGESTIONS for T4 - General Discussion

[DarthEnder]

Winding up with too much money shouldn't be an issue because there's shouldn't BE persistent loot.

[WVI]

The problem there is that you are looking for a safe way out, panicking because you did something as simple as picking something up. Sure, having played the games enough now, you know how and where to place the things, but what about the people who don't know that crouching over a rug and dropping will eliminate their problem? How are they going to learn within the context of the game? Either by accident or wild experimentation with objects, which, I hate to say, breaks immersion because you're trying to figure out a gameplay element that makes you feel like you don't have hands.

You know what? Forget whether or not such a thing was possible back then. That argument probably won't go anywhere. Should it be possible by the time the next game comes out? Yes. You were asking what I was in favor of - This is how I see it. You pick up an object. If there's a horizontal surface within range, standing or not, the object is dropped quietly and cleanly, upright. You still have your throw button, so if you want to make noise, you're welcome to it. How about pre-place highlighting? It's a bit cheap-looking, but there could be an outline of where the object will be when you drop it. About the loot glint - I was for it before, but a bit more TMA has me torn. I liked the other guy's idea; Loot only glints if you're right next to it and you look at it for a second.

Get why we're pissed now?

Yes, and it's incredibly silly. It's exactly like all those people Photoshopping Diablo 3 pictures because oh no, there's a rainbow three feet of the giant eating off the barbarian's head! I'm convinced now if the new game does anything to stray from the norm, people will complain. I'm sorry, but I just can't take this seriously. I love immersing myself in the game world, too - I find Thief to be some of the most immersive games ever.

I just already find Deadly Shadows more immersive. Sorry. "Kiddie" fireworks noises in an M-rated game doesn't break anything for me. Nor do horrific zombies in a castle where I can actually see my hand in front of my face. And I wish you'd quit doing stuff like this -

But then again, you won't seeing as how you didn't get it from Myth's post.

You were all for "different strokes" a second ago, but you're acting like I'm unintelligent for disagreeing. Quit it - that's incredibly condescending.



I have a question for some people in here, too - Would you rather Garrett only be able to heal through potions, for difficulty's sake, or should he be able to eat food mid-level too?

[ToMegaTherion]

Just imagine what the chaos would have been like if the Invisibility Potion had been invented in Deadly Shadows rather than Metal Age, lol.

[WVI]

If that happened, Garrett could pretty much scream "HEY IT'S A THIEF IN HERE COME GET ME" constantly and still make out with all the loot.




GUYS I'M STEALING THE CROWN NOW ARE YOU NOT SEEING THIS OH WAIT I GUESS YOU'RE NOT

(I am for bringing it back, though, as long as it's rare enough.)

[ToMegaTherion]

Originally Posted by wvi

if that happened, garrett could pretty much scream "hey it's a thi4f in here come get me" constantly and still make out with all the loot.

fyp.

Edit: I don't know what happened to the caps in that post

[Platinumoxicity]

One small idea for movement: If there's a ledge that is too narrow to climb onto, you can still hang from it and shimmy left and right. This is included in many games, for example the Tomb Raider series.

[Nate]

Hi DoomyDoomyDoomDoom. Since the Dark Mod uses the Doom 3 engine, I am assuming there is going to eventually be multiplayer....that would SO suck if BOTH Thief 4 and The Dark Mod DIDN'T have multiplayer!

I like the idea of more uses for money too. Paying off people for clues, maps/blueprints would be awesome. So would paying guards to leave doors/gates open or to even not show up for work.

Glad you see the potential fun/challenge of an encumbrance system. However, the penalties wouldn't be applied to movement (that would piss off people) Instead, weight/encumbrance penalties would be applied to stealth (Garrett is easier to see and hear) and climbing speed.

[WVI]

It would strike me as odd, since it takes a LOT of strength to do that, and I don't know if Garrett has it in him. Hanging and pulling yourself up a ledge is another thing, though.

[Botlas]

I don't know why people have such an issue with the loot sparkle. After you do a couple missions on either Dark Project and Metal Age, you learn to recognize all the treasure anyway. The sparkle makes it easier to identify treasure, but it's not like it was difficult in the first place.

[Platinumoxicity]

Originally Posted by WVI

It would strike me as odd, since it takes a LOT of strength to do that, and I don't know if Garrett has it in him. Hanging and pulling yourself up a ledge is another thing, though.

Climbing up a rope hanging from the ceiling takes even more strength than horizontal movement while hanging from a ledge. Are you saying that they should forget rope arrows too?
When moving horizontally hanging from the ledge, you only have to maintain your grip using your hands and feet. When climbing up a rope, you need to maintain a tight grip of the rope with your feet and hands while simultaneously increasing your potential energy, which requires work, which requires strength.

[Petike the Taffer]

DOs : Take all that was good in the previous three games, improve it as much as it needs to be improved and build upon it.

DONTs : Don't listen to all the unpleasable fanboys who only want a remake of any of the three installments. Ignore them.

Howg.

[WVI]

Originally Posted by Platinumoxicity

Climbing up a rope hanging from the ceiling takes even more strength than horizontal movement while hanging from a ledge. Are you saying that they should forget rope arrows too?

Huh, I forgot about that.

Fair point.

[Thieffanman]

Originally Posted by ToMegaTherion

I think the developers should once again have no swimming in the game. I think that is likely to make it better than a game with swimming in (I actually think this is true, it's not just inflammatory trolling!).

Strangely enough, this has merit. Why?

1) We don't know how much loot Garrett is weighed down with at any particular time. Even the strongest swimmers will have trouble when weighted down with weapons and armor. Maybe that's what the developers were onto when Garrett sank like a rock during TDS .

2) Water becomes another thing to avoid, along with armed Guards, Hammerites, Pagans, etc. It makes the player more wary.

Idea: Maybe have Garrett able to swim when he's light (ie. carrying under a certain number of items and/or weight), and unable when he's laden with loot/weapons .

--Thieffanman

[vasanx]

Originally Posted by Stick35

The E-* measuring in here is amazing. Simply post the do's and dont's you would like to see instead of telling everyone which person offended you by saying what or simply just bashing someone elses idea. Those people are clearly doing what this thread is for, you people however are not.

Would you mind your own business?

You either join the argument or don't. People have a right to speak their mind and defend it. Things have been civil here so, what's your problem?

We are supposed to create a separate thread to sort out the rudeness? We are stopping each other from goin into a flame war and that's what you're suppose to take from all this.

You got something to post, post and move on or stay and argue bout something we say. Don't come out of nowhere and talk smack bout the posters.

[Myth]

There can only be so much realism before a game becomes too dull. A Rope Arrow can't realistically exist IRL - an 70-80 kg man hanging from an arrow that has only it's tip sunk in some wood? Actually firing said arrow from a shortbow, it's weight added with the weight of a 5 meter rope? The 5 meter rope not visible at all on the arrow's construction prior to connection etc. etc. So adding loot weight and considerations weather Garret can swim in full gear or not is too much imo.

[Master Taffer]

If I may borrow an idea from another game franchise...

In Hitman, the player has a feature at his disposal where he may look through a keyhole to see a limited view of the otherside of the door. I've always thought this was a mechanic that would lend itself better to Thief rather than Hitman, as most modern locks can't be gazed through like they are in Hitman.

It'de be fairly simple control wise to do. Frob (Highlight) the door to open and/or pick the lock. Frob the door handle to look through the keyhole to see a limited, "tunnel vision" view of the room on the other side.

[Espion]

Originally Posted by Nate

Hi DoomyDoomyDoomDoom. Since the Dark Mod uses the Doom 3 engine, I am assuming there is going to eventually be multiplayer....that would SO suck if BOTH Thief 4 and The Dark Mod DIDN'T have multiplayer!

I only briefly played the Thievery mod in an early stage but it was pretty entertaining. That said, I'd rather they focus on the single player experience before putting any thought into multiplayer.

Originally Posted by Nate

I like the idea of more uses for money too. Paying off people for clues, maps/blueprints would be awesome. So would paying guards to leave doors/gates open or to even not show up for work.

In Thief 1&2 you could buy tips/hints/info from the shop. I believe you could even buy the map for one level. It worked.

Originally Posted by Nate

Glad you see the potential fun/challenge of an encumbrance system. However, the penalties wouldn't be applied to movement (that would piss off people) Instead, weight/encumbrance penalties would be applied to stealth (Garrett is easier to see and hear) and climbing speed.

If they were to introduce any kind of weight system I'd rather it just limit how much equipment Garrett can carry rather than change how stealthy he is in game. I think it's safe to assume that he'd know how much he can carry before it starts to compromise his ability to hide (his main skill set.)

Originally Posted by Master Taffer

...look through a keyhole to see a limited view of the otherside of the door.

Yes please. This would be useful.

In the first two games do you remember how if you started opening a door, but stood in the way, it would hit you and stop moving? You could then step around and look through the crack in the doorway. Fobbing the door again would then close it. I used to do this all the time. It half felt like a game glitch and half like I was meant to do it, but it was useful to be able to do and irritating when it was removed in TDS.

If I can't crack a door open to peek through to the other side then at least let me look through the keyhole please

[GmanPro]

Sometimes you have to suspend your disbelief if you want to enjoy the game. Just pretend its magic.

[Gabriel]

Well said, Myth. People just take it too far, either side.

I actually like elements from all three games, more from the first two, but DS had its (much fewer) good things. e.g. I liked the lockpicking minigame , but I think the people who argue so much about DS being so great either haven't played or they haven't understood the mechanics and the spark of genius of the first two games.

Now, I'm not saying these people are dumb, it's just that it's pretty hard for new gamers who are used to pretty shiny graphics nowadays and the game doing most of the things for them, to get into that whole low-poly/low res textured, do-it-yourself atmosphere of Thief 1 and 2. What I'm trying to say is T1 and T2 have a much better defined personality IMO, through all the things people like WVI complain about: dropping objects makes sound (go figure), not having loot glint etc etc.

To me, T3 was just trying to catch up with the times and I do believe they were trying to make a good game, they just got lost on the way, trying to innovate more and less keep it in the true spirit of the Thief series. Actually, I'm a bit worried about T4 because of some things the devs said in the interviews (bringing RPG elements into Thief, innovating - oh no!). I just hope, whatever they do, that they realize that old is not necessarily bad and have a look at the old Thief games and take much of their inspiration from them (and NOT SPLINTER CELL and Assassin's Creed!! like I remember reading in an interview)

We're all Thief fans after all, I think we should tone down on the aggressiveness and listen to what each other has to say. I may not agree with some of you, but I try to keep it civil.

Get a good game out there, EM! That's all I want.

[Master Taffer]

Originally Posted by Espion

Yes please. This would be useful.

In the first two games do you remember how if you started opening a door, but stood in the way, it would hit you and stop moving? You could then step around and look through the crack in the doorway. Fobbing the door again would then close it. I used to do this all the time. It half felt like a game glitch and half like I was meant to do it, but it was useful to be able to do and irritating when it was removed in TDS.

If I can't crack a door open to peek through to the other side then at least let me look through the keyhole please

Yeah, I recall it was also possible to keep the door open with simple junk. There was a quick way to beat Return to the Haunted Cathedral by keeping the front doors open with a well placed skull. Just grab the Eye and get the hell out of dodge.

[esme]

a quick point on the picking up and dropping of non loot items

yes they were easy to drop silently, just find a soft surface and hit 'R' (sorry vasanx)

but they were useful as distractions too, pick up a bottle, throw it past a guard onto a hard surface and the guard will generally go see what the noise was, it might take a couple of items but it worked most times

so non loot items have a use too, I don't know if it was an intentional feature or not but it was there and I used it

however it has reminded me of one thing I didn't like about The Dark Project and The Metal Age, (pauses for gasps of shock, cries of "heresy" and "burn the witch" to die down)

there are occasions in these games where Garrett is sneaking around a room with sleeping or even awake AI that have their back to him, he gently picks open a footlocker, then as soon as it opens he blindly grabs every taffing thing out of the box without looking at it and suddenly finds he has 200lbs of scrap iron in his hands that he has to try and get rid of silently without alerting all the AI in the room

c'mon he's a master thief why on earth would he pick up a taffin great hammer out of a box he's just opened for example when he knows he's only going to have to dump it, it's not even as if he can use it as a weapon, it just sits in his hands without going into the inventory so he can't pick anything else up, he can't select the blackjack and deal with the AI busting the ghost but keeping the game going he can't do anything except go find somewhere to either drop it or use it as a distraction

why couldn't he look in the box first and decide if it was worth picking the contents up

[ToMegaTherion]

I can't decide if that was better or worse than the Deadly Shadows chests with their 700ft sides that you can't see into.

[esme]

I think part of the problem with chests was that the entire chest was frobbable making the contents difficult to select individually, maybe it should only be the lid thats frobabble

[Abelo]

I'm a fan of the whole series. But there's far too much "It's not a Thief game with/without _______" on this forum, and it's just a mental shield against new ideas.

I can't but agree there. A lot of people here is in this unconstructive "don't touch anything" attitude, declaring everything they like about the Thief saga is a core value.

Come on. We all love Garrett and his voice, we all love rope arrows and mechanical eyes and lots of things, but those AREN'T sine-qua-non conditions for the game to be a Thief game. Please, try to be more constructive and open minded. Thief IS very capable of improving beyond graphics and AI, with vibrant new ideas as long as they are well executed. TDS did NOT fail because of climbing gloves, but for major things like load times interrupting the atmosphere; the kind of wrong design decisions that are as bad in a Thief game as in any other. TDS was a very improvable GAME before a very improvable THIEF game. Just, tainting the Thief franchise was a plus.

For those people; you have pretty much two choices: adapt or keep whining. DX3 is pretty much confirmed that WON'T be the same as DX1 with better graphics, and you can bet T4 won't be T2 with better graphics either. Times have changed, market has changed, people has changed, development risks have changed... live with it; it's a fact.

So, you can be constructive, trying to search for great new ideas improving the core concept behind a Thief game (pretty much as if there had never existed a Thief game before and you were trying to help EM make the best out of this promising burglar-simulator formula), or you can keep ranting like "EM ignores the fan base" until release day, when you'll say "whaaat? I was expecting a T2 with nextgen graphics WTF!!!11!!!?"

I'm warning you before they start showing material and info and the whining storm begins. Two ways to approach the development as fans: constructive or frustrating. Choose yours.

[Nate]

Keyhole viewing = awesome idea!

Also, I had entirely forgotten you could buy maps and hints from your fence/store during Thief 1 & 2. That was something they need to do again.