YOUR THOUGHTS & WISHES & SUGGESTIONS for T4 - General Discussion

[BlooferLady]

Actually, going back to the parkour thing:

I would be able to accept a more nimble protagonist if they wind up having a new main character. NOT to the level of Altair, and it seems to me that the method for implementing free running Mirror's Edge wouldn't really be very compatible with the gaming style of Thief. Haven't played Mirror's Edge, though, so I could very well be wrong.

Anyways, it merely occurred to me that, while I would scoff at Garrett developing the wall climbing abilities of a squirrel, (probably as much as I scoffed at his sudden inability to swim) a new protagonist might bring more of these skills to the table.

That being said, I'm terribly torn whenever I try and imagine a Thief game without Garrett as the main character. If you gave us someone with just as much personality, perhaps I could be persuaded to like them too, but you'd have to do a d**n good job to measure up to Garrett. And I'd still probably hate you 4 days out of 7.

[WVI]

Okay, what on Earth is up with all the Deadly Shadows hate?

Loot glint is a great thing. Take, for example, the two types of candlesticks - loot and junk. I shouldn't have to explain the benefit there. If you feel it breaks the immersion with a silly-looking gameplay element, think of it this way - Garrett's a thief. He's got a trained eye for loot.

And climbing? Wonky controls in Deadly Shadows aside, it's a great thing to have more clever ways to escape and more uses of the dimension of height. It adds to level design; there's nothing bad about it.

[BlooferLady]

I actually wondered about the loot glint/object highlighting hate as well. I could do with or without loot glint, doesn't matter to me. I don't understand why object highlighting has come under fire. We had that in the first two games as well..... unless object highlighting=loot glint?

I think there is a lot of criticism TDS mostly because it's the most recent example we have, and it was expanded and reduced in different ways than TMA. So it's the easiest example to use when saying "we liked that, we didn't like this," ect.

Actually, whenever I think something looks strange in TMA and TDS, I put it down to his mechanical eye. It's just better than letting it get in the way of the game. Perhaps that's just me.

[Thieffanman]

One more thing I'd love to see:

One thing I loved about TDS is that sometimes, missions went wrong. Sometimes mission goals changed right in the middle of the game, because well, that happens in real life . Garrett had to adapt to changing goals in order to survive, not to mention finish the mission.

Keep that in T4-- missions that suddenly go haywire, causing mid-mission change in goals/priorities.

--Thieffanman

[Platinumoxicity]

Originally Posted by Thieffanman

One more thing I'd love to see:

One thing I loved about TDS is that sometimes, missions went wrong. Sometimes mission goals changed right in the middle of the game, because well, that happens in real life . Garrett had to adapt to changing goals in order to survive, not to mention finish the mission.

Keep that in T4-- missions that suddenly go haywire, causing mid-mission change in goals/priorities.

--Thieffanman

Yeah, it created pretty nice surprises and dissapoinments. Like "Assassins", where at first you were going to rob a hammerite temple, or "Blackmail" where

Truart got killed

. The biggest surprise/dissapointment was in "The Haunted Cathedral", where you went all the way to the cathedral, but couldn't get in. Good times.

[Subjective Effect]

Hey mods, I know you moved my thread/post here but actually I don't think it quiiiite fits.

I've moved it here:

http://forums.eidosgames.com/showpos...6&postcount=38

which is a thread it fits in much better.

[Fiddlesticks]

I just loved Thief 1,2 they delivered this certain athmosphere Thief 3 couldn't fully deliver. Thief 1,2 felt much more complete than Thief 3 did.

What i didn't enjoy in Thief 3 was the city in which Garreth moves around. It felt like the concept of the city was a nice concept at start, but in the end you only could enter a handful of places, it made the world so tiny and predictable. I prefered the invisble unpredictable world of Thief 1,2, you didn't know where the journey brings you next, that made it mysterious and adventerious and it felt much bigger.

In Thief 1,2 you got thrown into really big open world and Garret's missions could've been anywhere. I felt kind of hopeless, desperate in Thief 1,2 it created this scary athmosphere + the great ambient background music, the delivered experience was perfect.
I would suggest every Thief 4 developer should play through Thief1,2 and soak up all the athmosphere, this is how Thief 4 should feel like.

Additionally:
- Garrett as maincharacter + his original voiceactors in every language.
- A return of the Thief 1,2 "treasure_pickup" sounds, the Thief 3 one was too soft, Thief 1,2 had this deep sound and it was much better.
- At least one level which is really really creepy, a level where you can feel the danger, like Thief 1 cathedral or Thief 3 cradle, this level need to deliver fear.
- Guards have funny conversations, funny taunts when they hunt you
- Decent use of the word taffer in dialogs (very important!)
- Many many secret places, to reward exploring to really feel acomplishment when you've got a hard to get treasure.
- a good believable AI, you should not be able to open a screeching door or a crate with load lockpicking noises and the guard doesn't give a damn about it, that's unrealistic.
- Athmospheric soundtrack which delivers the dark and mysterious feeling of Garrett's world + "Thief style cutscenes"
- a catchy intro like Thief 1
- 1st person view, of course with drawn model when you look down, but i quess this will come out as option, so everyone is happy.

Can't think of more at the moment, but i play through them at the moment so i will post more, it's been a while since i played them.

[DanielOcean]

Originally Posted by Fiddlesticks

Additionally:
- Garrett as maincharacter + his original voiceactors in every language.

For the german market: The german voiceactor from Metal Age! His voice fit in perfectly!

- a catchy intro like Thief 1

I prefered the Intro of metal age

Originally Posted by Flashart

If the overall story was great, but the individual level execution was lousy would that be better
than great levels but a frankly ridiculous story.I'm not saying either is mutually exclusive,
it just depends how you measure success.
Personally, I'd go for great levels, and if that means the story arc of the series has to be "massaged" a little that's fine.

I think the level design and the story are mutually exclusive... The Story is the content. The levels are the form to transport the content... If you have a grat Story, the level will form by itself. If the story inherits a turning point, like in "Blackmail" or other missions in thief 3, the mission objectives will change.

If you have a great story, the missions will become great by themselves. On the other hand, i think in Thief 2, they began with the level design and formed the story afterwards...
As far as I remember, they did that, because the fans didn't like the "Indiana Jones Factor" in DP (haunted places, run from zombies, etc). That made the MA so damn good.
Whatever, i would say that a great story forms great missions. Look at mafia as an example ...

[Flashart]

Yes and no, the "Bank" mission was great, but it could have easily just been about the loot, it wouldn't have made it a "worse" level. I agree it's better to have both, but I'd rather have
good levels and if the story has to bend to fit it, that's okay, as long as the ending is coherent and
satisfying.

[Norsu]

Originally Posted by WVI

Loot glint is a great thing. Take, for example, the two types of candlesticks - loot and junk. I shouldn't have to explain the benefit there. If you feel it breaks the immersion with a silly-looking gameplay element, think of it this way - Garrett's a thief. He's got a trained eye for loot.

In T1 and T2 you didn't need loot glint because it was so easy to see which items were valuable. For example valuable candlesticks in T1 and T2 were clearly made out of gold and player could easily see that they were loot. In TDS many loot items looked very similar to junk items so loot glint was necessarry.

Loot glint IMO was just another rushed decision in TDS that could have been avoided with proper design. So please EM make loot items look valuable again and if you really must add loot glint make it at least optional so that the community doesn't have to hack it away again.

[garrett69]

I think this game has so much potential, I can't think of any other series that can rival it. It's rightly the Jurassic Park of the game world, and has worldwide acclaim and appeal for good reason.

Many people have already put up suggestions, and most are perfect and clearly shows that the fans really do KNOW this game, and what it should/must be when it returns.

I'd really like it to achieve the following:

A better, more open plan world to explore, just like the levels of TDP and TMA. - TDS failed so badly in this area with boring environments with little reason to revist them, very claustrophobic, even if the lighting was excellent, the size was pitiful. Nowhere near enough side quests and storylines.

Garrett returning, voiced by Stephen Russell the man himself, music of course by Eric Brosius. These two icons make Thief what it is.

The non-linearity of TMA is essential

Proper use of the blackjack and rope arrows again.

The storyline should be totally immersive and play like the original two, I think the element of mystery with the trickster/victoria/undead/beasts etc really add atmosphere and suspense of the unknown.

The puzzle element if present should be alike what it was in TDP and TMA, not some Tomb Raider style approach.



Things that MUST NOT HAPPEN:
Thief 4 must remain in the medieval age and not be modernised PLEASE DO NOT RIP OFF THIS SERIES FOR PROFIT. I wouldn't buy a single eidos product again that's for sure, this is why I'm not buying thief 4 merchandise until I know Eidos is really listening to the fans knowledge and sticking to the tried and tested, legendary formula.

Garrett should remain the playable character, but I could accept a switch to another keeper/his new apprentice at a push, if done correct.

DO NOT TURN THIS SERIES INTO AN RPG! We don't want to see Garrett running round levelling up, boosting his health and manna skills and crap like this, it's not in keeping with the series. He is already at his prime. Gaining new equipment maybe, but don't treat it like a constant quest to improve your skill base.


Ultimately, what made the Thief series great, was how immersive it is. It's scary, it's slow, it's quiet, it's absorbing. The lighting and the ambience and literally hugging a wall until you hear a pin drop.
It's not about swords being brandished, it can certainily never be about guns, loud noises and special effects. Graphics barely matter.
It's all about timing and planning and stealth and the freedom to try and re-try and rediscover places and learn more about the story. That's what made Thief so replayable, people play TDP today and these levels are burned into our minds because they were so exciting/scary that we got caught up in a story that has never come along in gaming before.

The best way of describing it I think is it's like actually being inside a medieval novel, and shaping how it goes. I just hope Eidos listens to the fans, take until 2020 if they need, it will take time to get the mix right, and I hope it isn't going to simply trade this series in for a quick buck, because nothing but nothing hurts fans more than ripping off their memories.

[garrett69]

Also agree with previous poster about DRM. Can't touch this title even if it's my dream game when it has SecuROM on board. Won't go near anything that treats me like a criminal when I've paid legitimately, and that actively disrupts my computer and/or life, and for what....I'm not paying £30 to damage my system.

[vasanx]

Originally Posted by Neb

I think they mean that it's too noisy to put down worthless junk in TDP and TMA after realising that it's not actually loot.

Being able to replace objects silently, instead of slinging them, would be a decent feature.

What? Since when is that stupid?

That was suppose to add to the tension. You need to find a soft place to drop the stuff or get caught by the guard. Or you had to go somewhere where the guards aren't around to chuck it. Or better yet, use it to lure the guards to you for a knock or, send them searching so, you can get past them. How is that not awesome?

I even remember using my moss arrow to provide a soft cushion for the thing.

Was this done intentionally by LGS or was it an engine limitation? I don't know. But either way, calling it stupid is a bit extreme.

Why pick it up when you know it's not a loot? It kinda disciplines you when it comes to thieving. A Master Thief doesn't bother himself/herself (Hey ladies!) with anything other than loot.

[vasanx]

Originally Posted by BlooferLady

I didn't notice how awful the pagan-speech was in TDS...

Thief ended up being farcical thanks to stunts like this.

Originally Posted by BlooferLady

But really, go back and watch the eye-popping cutscene from TDP. Viktoria and Constantine sound scary as hell, even at the end when you can barely understand what they're saying. Their speech made them sound alien and other. Which they were, really. Wild and unfamiliar.

Those really were brilliant cutscenes. And did I mention how hot Viktoria was?

This is why I prefer TDP over TMA. Something was just not right bout The Trickster and Viktoria and they truly gave me the creeps.

Originally Posted by BlooferLady

Our favorite master thief is getting on in years, friends.

Heresy!

How could you?

Garrett becomes old? Cmon.

He was in his 20s in TDP and TMA. In TDS, he'd be in his early 30s at most. Even if Garrett is in his 40s in T4, which is so not right by the way, he'd still be good at what he does. Better in fact since, he has that much more experience now.

Just look at Tom Cruise and Brad Pitt, you really think these guys can't pull an Altair run?

You're not suggesting that Garrett is in his 50s now, do you? 60s?

Even so. This is my man Sly at 62.



Still think age has anything to do with anything?

[vasanx]

Originally Posted by BlooferLady

And I'd still probably hate you 4 days out of 7.

I'd hate em (no pun intended) 8 days out of 7 if there's no Garrett.

[WVI]

Originally Posted by vasanx

What? Since when is that stupid?

That was suppose to add to the tension. You need to find a soft place to drop the stuff or get caught by the guard. Or you had to go somewhere where the guards aren't around to chuck it. Or better yet, use it to lure the guards to you for a knock or, send them searching so, you can get past them. How is that not awesome?

I even remember using my moss arrow to provide a soft cushion for the thing.

Was this done intentionally by LGS or was it an engine limitation? I don't know. But either way, calling it stupid is a bit extreme.

Why pick it up when you know it's not a loot? It kinda disciplines you when it comes to thieving. A Master Thief doesn't bother himself/herself (Hey ladies!) with anything other than loot.

Ever heard of artificial difficulty?

Seriously, don't tell me Garrett's just incapable of putting down an object without throwing it. That's dumb. Consider people who DON'T know you just can't do that. You couldn't just console them with "Jeez, a true master thief doesn't make mistakes like that! Guess you'll just have to deal with making the noise!". You can add difficulty and tension by letting the guards see through walls, too, but no sane person would add that feature.

[TazmanianD]

Originally Posted by BlooferLady

unless object highlighting=loot glint

Object highlighting (also known as frobbing) is different than loot glint. In TDS, loot glint was this sparkle of light that appeared on all loot regardless of how close you were to it or how much light there was in the room. Frobbing occurs when an object lights up when you get close enough to it to perform so action with it (like pick it up).

I personally think that loot glint is the second dumbest thing I have ever seen in a game. I find a huge part of the game play in Thief is the hunt for loot. I love looking over every square inch trying to find those hard-to-find pieces of loot, but loot glint entirely destroys that because it points out every piece of loot, even if it's all the way down at the end of the hall.

I understand the frustration that people have in that it's sometimes difficult to tell what's loot and what's not (and almost impossible in TDS without loot glint) but I think there are better solutions to that. Being able to quietly put down something you pick up is one. Another is a toned down version of loot glint. With mods in TDS, you can change the texture used for the glint so that it is impossible to see until you're right on top of the loot. Then, if you're trying to decide if something is loot or not, you just look at it for a moment and if you see a tiny glint, it's loot.

[Thieffanman]

Originally Posted by ironpants

Dev team, please consider that no one in their right mind would go about sneaking / thieving in a manner which broadcasts what they're up to. T3 has Garrett stuck in this awkward, slightly crouched "I'm sneaking" pose as if using pantomime to tell a story. What the hell?

Can we please just have a dignified, normal upright carriage (as depicted in TDP cutscenes)? Enough with the gimmicky BS.

I think the thing with the crouching/ sneaky stance in TDS was because Garrett's wanted poster was *everywhere*. This is supposed to remind the player to stick to the shadows and out of sight of regular people and town guards. A man who walks upright has no fear of the people around him-- good for a trained warrior (ie. guards and Hammerites); bad for a thief .

My two cents: I say go with the half-crouch; it reinforces to the player that Garrett is a wanted criminal who *needs* to stay out of the public eye as much as possible.

. . .

On a different note: *Please* add some puzzle solving to T4. One of the things that made Final Fantasy X so cool (to me) was the fact that there was a lot of puzzle solving to be had. Same also for Onimusha 2, 3, and 4. Add a few puzzles, and I'll be a happy gamer .

--Thieffanman

[TazmanianD]

Originally Posted by Thieffanman

*Please* add some puzzle solving to T4. One of the things that made Final Fantasy X so cool (to me) was the fact that there was a lot of puzzle solving to be had.

I wouldn't blame most people here for disagreeing with this since it's not very much a part of the series, but I too would be happy to see this. I enjoy a good adventure game with puzzle solving to be had. I wouldn't expect anything difficult, but something will do. Perhaps there are some ideas to be had from Prince of Persia: The Sands of Time which was an action game with some decent puzzling in it.

[Durinda D'Bry]

Originally Posted by vasanx

Could you please rephrase? You just touched on one of the the most annoyin feature in TDS but I can't understand your reasoning for it.

It's all the more frustrating when you say TDP and TMA's loot system is stupid.

How is it stupid again?

What I don't like in Thief 1 or 2 that sometimes I cannot understand if item is loot or not - it may shine bright but it is not valuable - let's say steel plate looks like silver. And when I frob junk I should put it down - it produces noise.

[Gabriel]

Originally Posted by Durinda D'Bry

What I don't like in Thief 1 or 2 that sometimes I cannot understand if item is loot or not - it may shine bright but it is not valuable - let's say steel plate looks like silver. And when I frob junk I should put it down - it produces noise.

Not all loot is recognizable by simply looking at it from a distance (unless it sparkles, oh my!). I personally much prefer the Thief 1/2 approach. Pick up the damn thing, feel it, smell it, bite it, if it's gold/valuable, take it. If not, just drop it. I would imagine that looking through the eyes of a master thief, valuables don't glint, especially IN THE DARK?? But then again, I'm no master thief..

edit- also, imagine you being in somebody's house (that you've never been in before) and automatically knowing what's valuable and what's not. pretty unrealistic, don't you think?

[Abelo]

*Please* add some puzzle solving to T4. One of the things that made Final Fantasy X so cool (to me) was the fact that there was a lot of puzzle solving to be had. Same also for Onimusha 2, 3, and 4. Add a few puzzles, and I'll be a happy gamer

I'd agree with caution. ONLY if it adds to the atmosphere/mission plot, and is absolutely well integrated it almost feels natural. Puzzling in Thief can be a double-sided blade if you put a master burglar moving stupid boxes or pushing button sequences, it'd totally ruin the atmosphere and the point of the game.

[Gabriel]

Puzzles could work the way they work in Half Life 2, I think. A good example based on physics I found in the Tears of St. Lucia mission, of the Dark Mod when you had to destroy the statue. That kind of puzzle, me likey.

Come to think of it, the T4 devs should really keep an eye on The Dark Mod people (maybe even give them a job to work at T4 ). As far as I've seen, it includes pretty much everything that hardcore Thief fans want (mainly because they are big fans themselves and because they listen to suggestions from other fans).

And no, I'm not hired by the Dark Mod team, just appreciate and admire what they do.

[esme]

a quick comment on the parkour that people are clamouring for and pointing to Assassins Creed as an example

in The Dark Project and The Metal Age, Garrett already had parkour skills, he could run along rooftops and ledges, leap across alleys, jump, mantle and climb, usually all that was lacking was a place to use these skills and that was more due to the game engine not being able to handle extremely long or overly complex sightlines

ok, the parkour skills wouldn't let you leap wall to wall in an alley way slowly getting higher per jump until you reach the top, you couldn't run along vertical surfaces for any distance, but they were perfect for the game

further the parkour skills were completely under the control of the player, it wasn't just a case of picking a direction and keeping your finger on the forward button leaving the avatar to deal with the hard bits, if you wanted to be good at it you had to practice

as I've said before I want control of Garretts movement, I want to be able to make mistakes and I manifestly do not want what is essentially an autopilot

there are times when I've been playing that I misjudge something,a leap over a deep hole, and thats me scrabbling frantically at the lip of the gap on the other side moaning "nooooooo no no no getupgetupgetup YESSSS!" when I finally make it, I'm one of those poor deluded people who lean to the side in my chair when Garrett looks round a corner like I'm going to see more if I do, I'm the one who jumps back when something surprising happens, sadly I never managed that level of immersion with deadly shadows and the clunky movement was a big factor in that

I do not want the computer to play the game for me and relegate me to the status of a spectator who occasionally pushes a button, I want to play the game, thats why I buy them

Thief is not meant to be easy and it isn't, you have to observe, think and plan and if you get it wrong you have to have an escape route planned, thats a big reason why I like it

[WVI]

I might agree with the glint compromise from before - objects only glint if you get close enough and look at them for a second. That one at least makes sense.

I really feel like too many of these suggestions are naysayed just because they weren't in the original two games. I'm not calling bias on everyone here, but there's definitely some xenophobia. <_<