YOUR THOUGHTS & WISHES & SUGGESTIONS for T4 - General Discussion

[FrankCSIS]

Originally Posted by Pipinowns

If you don't think Max Payne is one of the greatest gaming series, than you haven't played the games in the series. Period.

Max Payne is one of the few gaming series that actually carried intelligence. Half Life was fun, but lets face it, when it comes to storyline, environment, and characters, Max Payne completely defeats it.

Max Payne 2 was clever, with its worlds-within-a-world story telling. I liked how the game missions hooked up with the game's own fiction.

First Payne was original in some ways, but the gaming itself was terrible. Every single damn level was the same, with a different background. Go up the stairs, go down the stairs. Go up the stairs, oh, go up the stairs again. Good mood, good voiceover, fun little story, poor game.

Half Life was clever in too many ways to be discarded the way you just did. It's superior to the first Payne in ambiance, feeling, immersion, gameplay and, yes, story. It has so little, but still offers so much more by way of stimulating the player's imagination.

I wasn't crazy about HL 2, which I feel lost a lot of cleverness and immersion for the sake of gizmos, so I'd put MP 2 on top of it. That's purely personal though, and in little ways based on facts or logic.

[vasanx]

First of all Sapare, learn how to use paragraphs. And the English language while you're at it.

Originally Posted by Sapare

I agree with him so much, you fans are kind of selfish.
Know to what I was about to say, I never played your precise Thief 1 game, but I saw all of it and know how it was.

There. That alone is enough. What gives you the fu*king right to talk bout TDP and TMA when you never played it. Saw and knowing is not enough!

You obviously started with TDS and for some perverted reason, you like it. Fine. No one says you can't like crappy games. Just look at Assassin's Snore fans.

Originally Posted by Sapare

But still saying the game should only be like Thief 1 and 2 is a dumb and selfish idea, Thief 3 was not really a BAD game(at least from my point of view) and I'm sure many ells( outside this forum that filled with die hard fans) agrees with me. It was different, yes.

Stop it already with this dumb and selfish thing already. You cannot come here and talk smack bout TDP and TMA when you've only played TDS. Hell, the way you're writing, it's as if TDS came out before TDP and TMA.

You don't come in and change everything, like they did with TDS, and expect people to stay quiet.

Imagine how you'd feel if TDS, the game you seem to adore so much, were to be the first Thief game and they changed everything you like about it. That's how we feel. Do you get that?

If you love that abomination of a game, fine. Salivate over it in some weird ass TDS forum or something.

T4 should be trying to win back the hearts of the real Thief community (we're at ttlg.com) who were alienated by TDS.

I still don't get what alternate universe you are posting from where TDS is considered a worthy successor to TDP and TMA.

Originally Posted by Sapare

Maybe it took your great rope arrow out(that was FREAKING BUGGED IN THIEF 1, so stop crying and don't tell me it was not, there where times you jump at it (and fall to your death) because it would shoot you up to meters but never grip the rope itself) and added something ells that never really worked but at least they tried to add something.

The fu*k? How many times did you die try jumping onto the rope? oh, that's right. You never played TDP. Or TMA.

I died too when i jumped but i don't hate it. If anything, it added to the tension of the game. Will i make a successful jump or not? There's nothing like looking down from a ledge and seeing how high you are and have that sick feeling in your stomach right before you make that jump.

That was what so great bout Thief. But, then again you need to play it, to know what i mean.

Originally Posted by Sapare

Another thing is that you guys all complain about the 3 person view in Thief 3, I could almost laugh, its like you actually trying to show how much a die hard fan you are that you actually say something dumb as that. Its not like having the EXTRA OPTION(like in Thief 3) to have 3 person view for the game hurts the game. I never new it was there after having finished the game 3 times until YOU said it was. Stop crying about it, it does not affected the game!

Wow. If you could laugh, i could cry reading your dumb ass comment here.
Does not affect the game? Do you even know what we were talking bout?

Adding the third person view hurt the first person view because they worked more on the third person than on the first person! Moving around was weird with your head constantly bobbing in first person. But then again you wouldn't know because...(drum roll please).....YOU NEVER PLAYED TDP & TMA!!!

Originally Posted by Sapare

And, I trust the Eidos as long they don't just listen to the crazy die hard fans in this forum will make a good game.

Right. They should listen to a deluded, rude ass like you to make the game.

[Pipinowns]

Originally Posted by GmanPro

Play Deus Ex if you want to know about intelligent video games sir

Ummm... are Dues Ex and the first two thieves the only intelligent game in your book?

Unfortunately, I have not played Dues Ex yet, but I seriously doubt that when I do I will throw away all my favorite games and label them below average.

Originally Posted by FrankCSIS

Max Payne 2 was clever, with its worlds-within-a-world story telling. I liked how the game missions hooked up with the game's own fiction.

First Payne was original in some ways, but the gaming itself was terrible. Every single damn level was the same, with a different background. Go up the stairs, go down the stairs. Go up the stairs, oh, go up the stairs again. Good mood, good voiceover, fun little story, poor game.

Half Life was clever in too many ways to be discarded the way you just did. It's superior to the first Payne in ambiance, feeling, immersion, gameplay and, yes, story. It has so little, but still offers so much more by way of stimulating the player's imagination.

I wasn't crazy about HL 2, which I feel lost a lot of cleverness and immersion for the sake of gizmos, so I'd put MP 2 on top of it. That's purely personal though, and in little ways based on facts or logic.

Yeah, Max Payne 2 is awesome

I can't really debate with you on the Half Life = imagination stimulating, because I haven't played the original Half Life in many years, and can only remember the highlights.

I definitely agree that Half Life 2 (which I've played rather recently) didn't live up to the original. Wasn't a bad game, though.

[GmanPro]

Ummm... are Dues Ex and the first two thieves the only intelligent game in your book?

There's also Baldur's Gate 1 & 2, Planescape: Torment, Fallout 1 & 2, Half Life, Kotor

Unfortunately, I have not played Dues Ex yet, but I seriously doubt that when I do I will throw away all my favorite games and label them below average.

Trust me. You will.

And it's Deus not Dues. Just fyi

[Thieffanman]

Originally Posted by VIKTORIA

Which of the Thief games was your favourite, which one was your least favourite - and why?
What key feature(s) did you like best about the game series?

Do you hope that T4 will retain these elements, or do you prefer to see something totally new?

1) I'm a rebel in that I *liked* Deadly Shadows for the feel of the game: A perpetually dark medieval-ish city, constantly hiding in shadows, excellent soundtrack that gave the game a spooky feel, and enemies that you usually needed to run from because they could out-fight you due to their being better armed and armored (ie. city guard and Hammerites)-- Garret's a *thief*, not a fighter. That element of danger helped make the game happen.

2) I liked the particulars of having to pick locks, eavesdrop on conversations for info, meet fences and black markets for materials and info, as well as the necessity of being stealthy-- if I wanted a fighting game, I'd buy something else.

3) Having random houses available to break into and plunder .

4) Eric Brosius' music. But then, that's been said, a *lot* .

5) As for T4, I say please keep the medieval/steampunk/goth city feel from Deadly Shadows. The coastal town in constant night with people out at all hours? I liked it. If Eidos wants the game's setting to evolve, consider a setting like Renaissance-era Italy, maybe Venice: canals, statuary, artwork everywhere, and *plenty* of alleys and places to hide.

6) Have haunted places like the Shalebridge Cradle and the zombie-infested ship. Also have out-of-the-way unusual goals like the Kurshok Citadel in Deadly Shadows.

--Thieffanman

[Sapare]

Originally Posted by vasanx

First of all Sapare, learn how to use paragraphs. And the English language while you're at it.

And you called me rude? Not like what I write is unreadable.

Originally Posted by vasanx

There. That alone is enough. What gives you the fu*king right to talk bout TDP and TMA when you never played it. Saw and knowing is not enough!

First of, What gives me the right to talk about TDP and TMA? You insane they are just GAMES any one can talk about them when he wants to. Also I never said I did not play TMA its the first Thief game I played and I finished it on hard. I also saw TDP being played every part of it on expert till the end right in front of my face

Originally Posted by vasanx

You obviously started with TDS and for some perverted reason, you like it. Fine. No one says you can't like crappy games. Just look at Assassin's Snore fans.

Like I already stated TMA is the first game I played in the THIEF series, I grew up with it. Also that part of your reply is just pure offensive you state no reason to even anther, you just say the game sucks done.

Originally Posted by vasanx

Stop it already with this dumb and selfish thing already. You cannot come here and talk smack bout TDP and TMA when you've only played TDS. Hell, the way you're writing, it's as if TDS came out before TDP and TMA.

Again any one can talk and express his feelings about that game how he wants to, chill really. Not like I really offended you, I just said what I was thinking about the game.

Originally Posted by vasanx

You don't come in and change everything, like they did with TDS, and expect people to stay quiet.

What? Open revolt?
" OMG they changed the rope arrow, kill them. OMG 3 person view!? NO!! OMG what the game is for consoles to? BURN THEM!"
That is how you seem to be

Originally Posted by vasanx

Imagine how you'd feel if TDS, the game you seem to adore so much, were to be the first Thief game and they changed everything you like about it. That's how we feel. Do you get that?

I do know how it feels, I played Prince of Persia, take one look out how the game was and is now. You would see how much it sucks now. But that only makes you guys look even more foolish, the PoP guys have reason to be whining. You guys still got a good game even if it was not a THIEF game in your saying.

Originally Posted by vasanx

If you love that abomination of a game, fine. Salivate over it in some weird ass TDS forum or something.

Why should I, this is the official Eidos forum, and I'm sure they appreciate ALL THIEF fans and not THIEF fans to give ideas and put input.

Originally Posted by vasanx

T4 should be trying to win back the hearts of the real Thief community (we're at ttlg.com) who were alienated by TDS.

As much as I see how you guys would love if they make every thing how you want it to be, you also need to think how MOST people want it, I don't say don't listen to the fans. I'm just saying its best to take input from both fans and not fans.

Originally Posted by vasanx

I still don't get what alternate universe you are posting from where TDS is considered a worthy successor to TDP and TMA.

Again nothing much other then just a responds to show how you don't think that people can have other things they like and don't like.

Originally Posted by vasanx

The fu*k? How many times did you die try jumping onto the rope? oh, that's right. You never played TDP. Or TMA.
I died too when i jumped but i don't hate it. If anything, it added to the tension of the game. Will i make a successful jump or not? There's nothing like looking down from a ledge and seeing how high you are and have that sick feeling in your stomach right before you make that jump.

You really think I would post that if I never tried? And its fine in THIEF 2 from what I remember the problem is a bug in THIEF 1, I don't know but it might not have been in it at first but at least with a modern computer its a bug that happens allot, its not that I missed the rope itself.

Originally Posted by vasanx

That was what so great bout Thief. But, then again you need to play it, to know what i mean.

Wow. If you could laugh, i could cry reading your dumb ass comment here.
Does not affect the game? Do you even know what we were talking bout?

Adding the third person view hurt the first person view because they worked more on the third person than on the first person! Moving around was weird with your head constantly bobbing in first person. But then again you wouldn't know because...(drum roll please).....YOU NEVER PLAYED TDP & TMA!!!

Well I sum it up, Its not the 3 Person views fault if first person is hurt by it, that is the programmers fault.

Originally Posted by vasanx

Right. They should listen to a deluded, rude ass like you to make the game.

[/QUOTE]

Ok that is all I think, I don't know why you being so rude and such an ass, I stated at the end of my first post that I thank you for reading it all and that it was just my point of view, and how I saw the things. So if next time you could please not swear for no reason, tank you.

[vasanx]

Great! Fu*kin great!

Thanks Sapare for misleading me. When someone says, "I never played your precise (it's precious, rite?) Thief 1 game" you tend to think that the person never played the Thief series at all. But fine.

Originally Posted by Sapare

And you called me rude? Not like what I write is unreadable.

Trust me, it's pretty unreadable. And the only reason I was rude is because you said the following:

1. "But still saying the game should only be like Thief 1 and 2 is a dumb and selfish idea"

2. "...its like you actually trying to show how much a die hard fan you are that you actually say something dumb as that"

3. "And, I trust the Eidos as long they don't just listen to the crazy die hard fans"

Listen, I hate rudeness as much as the next guy but you sir, started it.

I'm all for healthy discussion. Lets agree to disagree and all that *****. You wanna badmouth, badmouth the game itself, NOT the people.

That's why I was being a di*k. I was merely returning the favor.

You are right, they are just games. But don't attack the players themselves. Well, at least don't call them dumb. That kinda thing pisses off people, you know?

You wanna know why TDS sucks? Just go here:http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=88689

Oh, I'm chill alright and contrary to what you believe, you did offend me and countless other Taffers.

Fine, just say what you're thinking without trying to start a flame war at the same time.

Originally Posted by Sapare

What? Open revolt?
" OMG they changed the rope arrow, kill them. OMG 3 person view!? NO!! OMG what the game is for consoles to? BURN THEM!"
That is how you seem to be

Oh, please stop it. You're killing me here. Are you a regular in the stand up scene?

Nobody wants kill nobody here, except maybe the Ion Storm people behind TDS and Jade Raymond.

Just read through the forum why we are pissed about the rope arrow, the third person and console thing. There are logical explanations for all of the above but if you can't accept them then fine, state your logical rebuttals instead of humiliating yourself. I don't know if anyone has told you this before, but you're no comic genius Sapare.


You claim that you know how we feel and yet you fail to show any of it here.

Just because TDS didn't completely suck, in your book anyway, we are foolish for whining?

Whining is our right. You whine too and i wouldn't have been rude if you didn't start it.

Originally Posted by Sapare

As much as I see how you guys would love if they make every thing how you want it to be, you also need to think how MOST people want it, I don't say don't listen to the fans. I'm just saying its best to take input from both fans and not fans.

What most people? We are the most people! People who have been playing Thief fan missions for over 10 years now. The most people you are talking bout are kids with over developed trigger finger who can't wait to blow ***** up.

They are way too impatient for what Thief has to offer. EM being like any developer, wants to make a profit and as such they will target the largest audience. That's the Halo kids I was talking about.

Making T4 with them primarily in mind will only hurt the series. That's all me and the other taffers are saying.

Please tell me you at least get that?

I've already acknowledged that people can like and dislike whatever is it they want. Nothin is wrong with that. Just be careful when you pick on it.

Originally Posted by Sapare

Well I sum it up, Its not the 3 Person views fault if first person is hurt by it, that is the programmers fault.

Wow. You continue to amaze me. Seriously? (Note: This is an example of attacking someone without being too rude.)

Originally Posted by Sapare

Ok that is all I think, I don't know why you being so rude and such an ass, I stated at the end of my first post that I thank you for reading it all and that it was just my point of view, and how I saw the things. So if next time you could please not swear for no reason, tank you.

I think you know why. Just because you said thanks at the end doesn't mean you can call people dumb and crazy.

I hate swearing too so, i'm cool if you're cool. Stop attacking the players, stop attacking carelessly anyway.

Arguing can be fun if you know how to do it well. That's all I'm sayin.

[Viktoria]

Taffers, keep it civil around the camp fire please.
We each have different opinions about everything and all are welcome to express their views on this forum.

[DanielOcean]

At first: A great story. Not linear, with twists and turns in it.

I remember how thrilling the scene was, when Truart was murdered! You go through this red coloured corridor and suddenly the guards start to argue about Truarts death. Gave me goosebumps Absolutely amazing turn!

An interactive world of some kind (thief3). People moving around, having their own little stories (e.g. Thief 2: Lady Rumford in "Framed" was great! )

Some optional Sub-Missions beside the Main-Plot Missions. That does not mean, that you can't investigate something in these sub-missions! Perhaps there is a main plot and some optional subplots during the game ( e.g. Finding the wedding bands for Jennivere and Basso )

Perhaps your behaviour has an influence on the story line? Don't know, just some thoughts...

[xxcoy]

Originally Posted by TazmanianD

That is an interesting survey. Perhaps someone should put a copy up here.

I'm a bit confused about the graphic design though. Why would people not want that? I guess it depends what that means to you.

I wouldn't want Thief to be an RPG, but I liked what I consider some minor RPG elements that were in TDS. I liked the fact that Garrett gained a few new abilities over the course of the game and I liked that you had a persistent city with a persistent personal inventory with the ability to visit various shops to buy things.

I did like having the robots and cameras since they really added to the Steampunk atmosphere and I liked that there are some fantastical elements in Thief with some monsters, but I think Thief 1 over did it. I'd like at least a little bit of those.

The survey was made in September 2004.
The part concerning graphic design then was mostly influenced by the small levels in TDS which looked great but did not give you the feeling of complete freedom as the Game did in TMA.
People affiliated that problem on the graphics as well as on the consessions to the XBox.
I think nowadays graphic performance and level size shouldn't contradict each other anymore.

I for myself didn't see a point in Garrett "leveling up", why should he suddenly have to learn skills he always had anew? (And how did he forget how to swim all of a sudden...?? Did someone knock him too hard? ^^ )

I liked either monsters as robots but a lot of fans enjoyed pure 'sneaking & stealing' missions as 'Bafford's Manor' or 'The Bank' most of all and wouldn't have missed those opponents if they wouldn't have been there.
Anyway, they didn't exactly say that they disliked them, just that they weren't that important to them.
Apart from that, they wouldn't want to miss the creepy levels as Bonehoard or Shalebridge Cradle.

Steampunk was always one of the most important parts of the typical Thief Game and although the robots and cameras apparently didn't exactly make 'person of the year' for German fans, the SP-atmosphere always was most appreciated.

[acridrose]

Originally Posted by DanielOcean

At first: A great story. Not linear, with twists and turns in it.

I remember how thrilling the scene was, when Truart was murdered! You go through this red coloured corridor and suddenly the guards start to argue about Truarts death. Gave me goosebumps Absolutely amazing turn!

An interactive world of some kind (thief3). People moving around, having their own little stories (e.g. Thief 2: Lady Rumford in "Framed" was great! )

Some optional Sub-Missions beside the Main-Plot Missions. That does not mean, that you can't investigate something in these sub-missions! Perhaps there is a main plot and some optional subplots during the game ( e.g. Finding the wedding bands for Jennivere and Basso )

Perhaps your behaviour has an influence on the story line? Don't know, just some thoughts...

Thank you for restoring this thread
And you draw our eyes to an important part of Thief II- Blackmail. Everyone refers to Life at a Party for the idea level (and rightfully so!), but Blackmail is a second example that I would point EM to- the way the level is structured is very clever. You, as Garrett, work your way up the mansion in a methodical, but non-linear fashion, and each floor has a surprise. The change of colour at the murder scene is the best part!!
Any other thoughts on this mission?

[Sapare]

@vasanx
I don't want to argue any more. So lets say that I started it with being offensive. What I'm sorry for, but I was just trying to say they should listen at both die hard fans and not die hard fans. I for one am a great fan of the game to, to be a die hard fan of it does not mean you NEED to have played Thief 1. But all that there was to be said has been said, and I don't want to leave this argument with hatred between us, so sorry. BTW, the link you posted, at the end they guy still said THIEF DS was not a ENJOYABLE game...
(BTW, Sorry for my English , I'm am German)

[joshtheitguy]

Originally Posted by GmanPro

I don't have a fast internet connection so STEAM only prevents me from playing my games which I paid for. It doesn't do anything positive for me

Unfortunately we are at a day in age where no game developer is going to abandon DRM. If I had a choice between SecuROM or Steam, I'd chose steam. I won't buy any game with SecuROM and if it happens to make it's way to Steam along with SecuROM that is even more the reason to pass that title up.

Face it no developer is going to abandon DRM so which one do you prefer?

Valve software's approach where you know what you are getting.

or

Sony's malicious, hidden, rootkit that disables your burning software can potentially damage your hardware then phones home all the time and reduces performance?

If the devs are listening, I prefer no DRM but if you believe you have to please use DRM use Steam opposed to SecuROM and if you use both don't even bother I won't buy the game with SecuROM.

[vasanx]

Originally Posted by Sapare

@vasanx
I don't want to argue any more. So lets say that I started it with being offensive. What I'm sorry for, but I was just trying to say they should listen at both die hard fans and not die hard fans. I for one am a great fan of the game to, to be a die hard fan of it does not mean you NEED to have played Thief 1. But all that there was to be said has been said, and I don't want to leave this argument with hatred between us, so sorry. BTW, the link you posted, at the end they guy still said THIEF DS was not a ENJOYABLE game...
(BTW, Sorry for my English , I'm am German)

As do I.

Allow me to apologize as well. Trust me, no hatred.

Yeah, GmanPro enjoyed TDS for all its flaws and to be honest, I didn't totally hate it. It's just that so much of it could have been easily avoided if Ion Storm wasn't so impatient and reckless.

They rushed out the game for one. They made it with Xbox in mind. Listen, I'm not a PC Supremacist nut job, ok? I own a 360 myself and love what that baby can do.

But what Ion Storm did was screw over the PC people by building TDS based on what the Xbox can do.

Now that I think of it, why did they bother releasing it on the PC? It should have been like Halo 2. Ignore the PC people. Sure, the PC people would have been pissed as hell but the moment we start reading the reviews, I'm pretty sure everybody would have felt glad it wasn't released on the PC and we could go back to playing our TDP and TMA fan missions.

Everyone is worried that history will repeat itself and it most likely will. But we have to at least do our part to warn EM.

The 360 is an amazing piece of hardware. Tri-Dual Core and that Custom ATI GPU means it could do what the Xbox could only dream of.

All EM have to do now is pick the correct engine or build a new engine from the ground up. In fact, they should be working on DarkEngine 2.

I mean cmon! How hard can it be to take the Dark Engine and update it to today's standards?

That's all we are askin for here. And as for TDS, take whatever that did work there and bring it into T4 (The blackjack does not apply here!).

If EM refuses to do that then, at least release the DarkEngine source code to the ttlg people. There are people here who are willing to continue the Looking Glass legacy. Just look at T2X.

We don't care bout no shiny graphics if the soul of the series is not there, again.

I'm telling you EM, if you guys pull another TDS you are gonna lose the TDP and TMA fans.

(And please do not apologize for your English. I'm sorry I was a di*k bout your English that time. That was because of the whole dumb, crazy thing. And I'm Malaysian by the way)

[vasanx]

Originally Posted by mister_riz

Leave AI suggestions alone I think. EM will be fully aware the AI can be improved to today's gaming standards and it's not a subject they'll need fan input with.

I don't really agree with you here because if we don't highlight to them, they could miss it seeing as how they will be referring to the previous Thief games.

This should be like an important thread. Perhaps Viktoria could include this in the Keeper's Diary.

AI makes the guards believable if done right and this can only add to the realism of the game.

I know it's 2009 and things have progressed a lot but there are devs that still manage to screw this part up.

One good example, Velvet Assassin.

The guards can be really dumb at times. You got two guards standing 5 feet apart looking the opposite way. You stab one guy and he cries out a bit and drops to the floor with a thud. And guard no.2 hears nothin of it. He wasn't on headphones the last time I checked.

Going back to thief, the thing that I could never get around is how guards don't notice doors that have been left open. Or on hearing a door to their room has just been opened and no guards have entered. What? Did the wind unlock the handle and push the door open? Cmon!

That should trigger the AI to search for intruders.

What about when using rope arrows? I remember doing this all the time.

Guards spots me, guard chases me. I go into a room and shoot a rope arrow into the beams in the ceiling and climb up. And our guard arrives and just goes round and round in the room completely oblivious of the rope. Even walks through it.

And there I'll be, firing my arrows from above and the guard just takes it without looking above or in the interest of self-preservation, run out of the room.

These are the kind of things from the previous three games we need to bring up to EM's attention so that it doesn't slip through the crack come T4.

I know there are more silly AI moments but I can't think of any at the moment. What do you guys have?

[GmanPro]

In Thief 2, I liked how the guards could turn some lights back on after you had shot them out/flipped them off. I want to see more of that in Thief 4.

It would be nice to see the guards react more realistically to the environment after they had spotted you. Like a tendency to only travel in groups and to stay in well lit areas etc. I want to see them break out into search parties and prowl the premises if they had seen you and you got away. You could add in scripted sequences and alternate guard-to-guard conversations for such instances. Anything to add to the atmosphere and make the world more believable.

I dislike that the guards behavior is just on a loop. If they fail to find you they just go back to stage 1 as if nothing had happened. Instead of going into stage 1 they should enter stage 3.5 or something. It would be a great way to make the gameplay of each mission feel unique.

[vasanx]

Nice.Totally forgot bout that annoying bit.

What kinda guard goes back to whistling happily after chasing and losing a thief. He's still in the mansion. Hello?

The moment you're spotted, that's it. All hell should break loose and the amount of guards that come out from the barracks should make it impossible for Garrett to stay there.

The mission doesn't have to necessarily end there.

I'm thinking, Garrett retreats to his base, wait it out a day or two and make another attempt.

But this time, his previous intel won't work because the guards and owner of the mansion for instance, have moved the main loot in light of the thievery attempt. Also, the total amount of loot would have dropped significantly since everything is transferred to the bank or something.

And, there'll be more guards patrolling more seriously this time.

I mean, how cool and real would that seem?

[DoomyDoomyDoomDoom]

hmm I'll admit I didn't read all that arguing. I just wanna say that if somebody started with TDS and liked it, they should do themselves a favor and play the first two as well. Then they would understand very well what most people want from Thief 4 and why they so fervently fight for it. It's not about remaking Thief 2.

oh and if people are having trouble playing the first two then yea, sorry. I've heard all kinds of problems with installing and playing those games on a modern system.

[kin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTwrEfES5Q4

[Flashart]

No single game had every level of unbelievable quality. TDS had "The Cradle" which is
one of the all-time classics.
The law of averages suggests that some of T4 will be so-so but some will be brilliant.
If the overall story was great, but the individual level execution was lousy would that be better
than great levels but a frankly ridiculous story.I'm not saying either is mutually exclusive,
it just depends how you measure success.
Personally, I'd go for great levels, and if that means the story arc of the series has to be "massaged" a little that's fine.
Last year's "Fallout" had some great stuff in it, some tedium, and a deeply unsatisfying ending,
but overall it was a great game.
TDS tried to straddle a divide between attracting new gamers while keeping the original fans.

[Dominus]

hehe, so true kin. it is that simple.
also this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TaugYown6GA

[Flashart]

I guess it's the level of suspicion that the guards feel. An open door
may arouse curiosity, a previously locked door would arouse suspicion.
Torches going out could be the wind, lights turning off could be fused.
Maybe guard levels might be
1 Calm ("Dum de dum")
2 Alert ("Strange noise?") Looks around
3 Suspicious ("Who turned off the lights?") 1 search patrol then return to post
4 Determined ("I'll find you") Thorough search, turning lights on, relocking doors
5 Hostile ("Stand still, Taffer!") Chase/ and get help.

Not every guard need have the same level, but should harder game settings have
more guards, or more sensitivity or both?
The problem might be that some gamers would rather reload a save than play on, then
you get the "frustrated" negative comments.

[vasanx]

Originally Posted by Durinda D'Bry

Please do:
- Loot glint (it's stupid in Thief 1/2 to get something attractive and stuck with it in hands without chance to avoid so much noise when put it back; it's stupid to paint something valuable). But it's better to be configurable.

Could you please rephrase? You just touched on one of the the most annoyin feature in TDS but I can't understand your reasoning for it.

It's all the more frustrating when you say TDP and TMA's loot system is stupid.

How is it stupid again?

[Neb]

Originally Posted by vasanx

Could you please rephrase? You just touched on one of the the most annoyin feature in TDS but I can't understand your reasoning for it.

It's all the more frustrating when you say TDP and TMA's loot system is stupid.

How is it stupid again?

I think they mean that it's too noisy to put down worthless junk in TDP and TMA after realising that it's not actually loot.

Being able to replace objects silently, instead of slinging them, would be a decent feature.

[BlooferLady]

Originally Posted by maddermadcat

Oh, a don't: that annoying pagan speech. Get rid of it, they didn't sound like apebeasts in TMA, they shouldn't have in TDS either.

You know, for me, it was a couple of years between playing TDP/TMA and TDS. I didn't notice how awful the pagan-speech was in TDS until I read people's complaints on here. But really, go back and watch the eye-popping cutscene from TDP. Viktoria and Constantine sound scary as hell, even at the end when you can barely understand what they're saying. Their speech made them sound alien and other. Which they were, really. Wild and unfamiliar. TDS simply made pagans sound silly, and they were hard to take seriously.

Couple of other points:
1. Parkour? Really? Our favorite master thief is getting on in years, friends. I don't think I'd be able to take up parkour, and I'm only 22. That's about how old he was in TDP, right? Not a skill I'd like to see in T4, sorry. If you wanted to add some more fluid movements in, I think he should be able to vault over low walls, or run up short walls to grab the top. Nothing too fancy! Simply add on to the already established "mantling," and make some things more natural.

2. Loading screens: I have played TDS on 2 different platforms, PC and 360. On PC, the loading screens take FOREVER and are terrible flow-breakers. I play on a laptop. That's the chief reason why. I don't notice it on Xbox, since my 360 whips through the load-times. To draw from some more modern games, if you can keep all of Cyrodil available without a loading screen, you should be able to do the same with T4.

3. I never had much of an issue with the guards' alertness levels. They are much more aware after they've spotted you once. This seems fairly natural to me. I think the main thing would be that they need to return to the non-alerted level more gradually, so that you don't have someone coming after you to take off your head who suddenly says "oh, must have been rats" and goes about their business. This doesn't happen all the time, and consistency makes the difference. Plus, if I was a guard, and had just spotted and lost an intruder, I would be somewhere at level 2.5 for the remainder of my shift, but I wouldn't necessarily run off to tell the boss just how bad of a guard I am. The precedent is there, I just think they need to make it more consistent.

4. What about cameras and turrets? I feel like they really added to the steampunk atmosphere of TMA. TDS and TDP had less of that, and more of a fantasy feel. I still liked the atmosphere, but I started playing on TMA, and I liked that culture clash. Really, much of the storyline stems from the conflict between the modern, mechanical world and the magical, natural world. I'd like to see more of a return to that feel.

I think that above all, if there's a possibility to give the player an option, (sword/dagger, climbing gloves/rope arrows, third person/first person) give it to us. Take the time to really perfect this game, and you can appease newcomers and old hands alike.