"THE ARMOURY: Tools of Your Trade" - Weapons/Equipment Discussion Thread

[DoomyDoomyDoomDoom]

oooh yeah, caltrops, I like that idea. Those were great in the tenchu games. Slow down those chasing guards. Could be the next best thing when you have no flash bombs or speed potion.

[esme]

I saw the previous comment about a crack arrow and that led me to think of an MJ arrow

it leaves the victim sat giggling in a corner staring at their hand, repeated use makes the victim paranoid

totally inappropriate but such fun

[Blade_hunter]

It was just a "magical arrow" that creates an apparition of a ghost or an undead, but it's just an image, the creature generated by the arrow isn't real if an enemy goes where the image is generated the image disappear ...

Don't worry I won't suggest overkill weapons and/or arrows, but my worry about that arrow was more about the too much magical though, even if the use is only for distraction in a visual manner.

The Thief arsenal is close to be a complete arsenal in terms of distraction and tools, since Thief is game that privileges the utility use of a weapon rather than the weapon use ....

[Master Taffer]

Originally Posted by Platinumoxicity

The mines could work in 2 ways. If you press "r" to drop it, it arms it like a mine. But... if you press "m2" to throw it, it arms with a timer so you can slide in under a door and the gas fills the room on the other side and knocks out anyone in there. Then you have to wait a moment before entering.

Assuming someone is stupid enough to design a door with a crack under it large enough to slide a 5 inch tall mine underneath it, of course.

[Hypevosa]

see in the thief universe the doors are all tight to the floor though for the sake of gameplay... would you want everyone on the other side hearing you cause of the crack under the door?

While it's a fun concept, it just isn't practical to throw a mine under a door. Maybe open a door slightly, slowly and drop one through and close it quick... but that's assuming they allow for that kind of interaction.

[Blade_hunter]

How do you think about some tools like:
Bolt cutters (a tool for cutting chains)

A circular class cutter (for cutting closed window glasses)

[Hypevosa]

bolt cutters are insanely heavy, and not a thing a thief would lug around when he has all the other equipment garrett does. However, the glass cutter I can see, as in previous games if you wanted to go through glass you had to break it... noisily. It could be something the player buys optionally, as most glass you can make your way around anyways.

[kaekaelyn]

I'm absolutely sure I'm not the first to put this out there, but I think the flashbombs in TDS were all wrong. I liked the ones that could backfire on you if you weren't careful, yet you got the added bonus of being able to blackjack your stunned opponent. The ones in TDS were less risky, but blackjacking a blinded foe would make them snap out of it. That felt rather backwards to me.

[Hypevosa]

yes, flashbombs should return to their former glory. If I clonk someone on the head who isn't prepared for it, they should go out... especially when blind and even more unaware.

[Master Taffer]

Originally Posted by Hypevosa

yes, flashbombs should return to their former glory. If I clonk someone on the head who isn't prepared for it, they should go out... especially when blind and even more unaware.

And clonking them DEFINATELY shouldn't magically return their sight to normal state

[Nate]

Neat tools! I would like to see Garrett use specialty tools like bolt cutters and glass cutters for special missions.

I would also like to see a return of the more traditional flash bang (that posses some risk to Garrett as well).

[Hypevosa]

Playing through TMA again, I just found flash mines, and I'd forgotten they existed before... I like them, and I want them back.

[DarthEnder]

So I've been thinking about melee weapons, and I think it would be cool if Garrett gets a variety of different magic weapons during the course of the game, and when he's picking his kit at the start of the level, he has to choose which one he brings.

And each of these weapons is especially effective against one type of enemy and they form a sort of rock/paper/scissors type situation.


Essentially, you always have your trusty dagger and blackjack with you.

At the beginning of the game, your primary melee weapon is your trusty sword(possibly Constantine's).

Then there's special warhammer from the Hammerites you can wield that has a similar effect on undead that holy water does. You can drop a zombie with one sneak attack and hitting the corpse of an undead burns it to ashes in a burst of bluish white flame.

Then you get a magical sickle that belonged to the Pagan's that causes extra damage to machines with a rusting spell. And striking an already disabled machine with it causes it to crumble into a pile of rust dust.

And then you get an axe or cleaver of some kind from the Necromancers that is imbued with a magical necrotic toxin. Any Pagan beast, be it ratbeast, treebeast etc. takes extra damage from this, and any corpse for a beast you strike with it dissolves into a puddle of black ooze.


So at the beginning of each mission you decide which weapon you most want for that level. If the briefing has you raiding a tomb, you'd bring the hammer, if the mission has you breaking into a Hammerite factory you bring the sickle, etc.

[Hypevosa]

Originally Posted by DarthEnder

So I've been thinking about melee weapons, and I think it would be cool if Garrett gets a variety of different magic weapons during the course of the game, and when he's picking his kit at the start of the level, he has to choose which one he brings.

And each of these weapons is especially effective against one type of enemy and they form a sort of rock/paper/scissors type situation.


Essentially, you always have your trusty dagger and blackjack with you.

At the beginning of the game, your primary melee weapon is your trusty sword(possibly Constantine's).

Then there's special warhammer from the Hammerites you can wield that has a similar effect on undead that holy water does. You can drop a zombie with one sneak attack and hitting the corpse of an undead burns it to ashes in a burst of bluish white flame.

Then you get a magical sickle that belonged to the Pagan's that causes extra damage to machines with a rusting spell. And striking an already disabled machine with it causes it to crumble into a pile of rust dust.

And then you get an axe or cleaver of some kind from the Necromancers that is imbued with a magical necrotic toxin. Any Pagan beast, be it ratbeast, treebeast etc. takes extra damage from this, and any corpse for a beast you strike with it dissolves into a puddle of black ooze.


So at the beginning of each mission you decide which weapon you most want for that level. If the briefing has you raiding a tomb, you'd bring the hammer, if the mission has you breaking into a Hammerite factory you bring the sickle, etc.

I kinda like the idea of a weapon from each side, but.... why do we have a necromancy weapon? O.O

I don't see garrett wielding one of those hammers though, it would have to take like 4 whole seconds for him to swing it... unless garrett's been getting muscles for carrying that 400lbs in gold he always ends up with every mission.

[DarthEnder]

Originally Posted by Hypevosa

I kinda like the idea of a weapon from each side, but.... why do we have a necromancy weapon? O.O

Cause necromancers are the real third faction in the spiritual conflict of Thief man! It's all about the balance of the between Dynamism, Stasis and Entropy! The Trickster, The Builder and The Reaper! Don't you know anything about metaphysics!

Originally Posted by Hypevosa

I don't see garrett wielding one of those hammers though, it would have to take like 4 whole seconds for him to swing it... unless garrett's been getting muscles for carrying that 400lbs in gold he always ends up with every mission.

The hammer he would get wouldn't be like the Hammers sledgehammers. The one that's enchanted for destroying undead would just happen to be a lighter one-handed hammer. Probably that some Hammerite made for his 10 year old niece for clearing out the family crypt. Perfect for Garrett!

[Hypevosa]

A warhammer then like the one they had william wallace wield in deadliest warrior. Sure, sounds good to me.

"You are healed!"
*groan? SPLOOSH the hammer goes through the zombie's forehead6

[Viktoria]

Originally Posted by Hypevosa

Playing through TMA again, I just found flash mines, and I'd forgotten they existed before... I like them, and I want them back.

Interesting, I don't think I ever needed to use one myself... at least, I certainly can't remember doing so.
Occasionally one would get used by mistake... - so I would just reload.

[DarthEnder]

I just used them as another flash bomb. Much like I'd use gas bombs just as I would gas arrows.

All charges should come in both mine and bomb form.

[Hypevosa]

I liked it because if I saw someone coming, I could lay one behind a corner, and wait for the "fuhkoosh" and run around the corner and blackjackem. They were also good in combination with a noise maker arrow. You lay it down, fire a noisemaker arrow to the flash mine, and all of them run over and get flashed at one time.

[DarthEnder]

Yep, setting up huge mine traps is pretty much all noisemakers are good for.

That and Constantine.

[Hypevosa]

Originally Posted by DarthEnder

Yep, setting up huge mine traps is pretty much all noisemakers are good for.

That and Constantine.

Don't forget noise arrow gas arrow classic.

[Sebra]

I think would be good, if Garrett can take short sword or dagger or both or none.
If I don`t want to fight anyone and sure can evade, I will take none.
If I want to try both, I will take both.
Also why do you think I _must_ take and use blackjack? May be I want to leave it at home.
If I choose to not take the bow, all arrows would be unusable, but I still have bombs, mines.
Allow me (and may be make me one level) to start mission with empty hands.
Allow me to use stolen weapons like swords (worse when guards), hammers (very bad but usable), even magic rods (as a club at least). Why not?

In Thief world we have 4 magic elements and 4 type of magic crystals: water, fire, earth(moss), air(gas).
If anyone wants more powerful versions make and hide in levels (very hard) reciepts to combine crystals.
We have:
1 water arrow: douse fire, clean blood, expand moss ... may be forgot some.
2. fire arrow: burn fire, ;;;
3. moss arrow: lay moss, silence breath...
4. gas arrow: knockout gas.
We can get combining:
Steam arrow (water+fire): douse fire, explode (push objects).
Moss pillow arrow(water+moss): big soft block to block path or soft fall onto. Lasts some seconds.
(water+gas) - I don`t know, poison may be.
Firewerk arrow (fire+moss): bright flash like flashbomb.
Explosive arrow (fire+gas): burn fire, explosion,
Dust arrow (moss+gas): wide range silence and blind eyes for some time.
They have price of arrow+both crystals to use it, so they are expensive.
Also reciepts must be really hard to find.

As for potions, I don`t like any potions. They are quite like a doping. At least untill other characters will use it, not only carry for you to grab.

If anyone want a mushrooms, make it so:
1. some different types with various effects without description.
2. different types like one another visually, able but hard to make out.
3. it must be hard to tell the effect untill you try it (and may be even later).

All this is my opinion only.

[BG_HHaunt]

I would like to see other weapons you find in the game usable.
Also a way to make yourself a fire arrow by igniting a normal arrow on fire.
And the fire arrow that explodes like in thief 1,2 and TDS should be called exploding arrow,while the normal arrow ignited by fire should not explode,but only set the target on fire.
There should also be a poison that is used on broadhead arrows to kill a victim or slow him or something like that.
And of course some other upgrades on arrows and especially rope arrows.

[akalest0s]

Hi all, 1st time I post here! I'm from Greece, so forgive any mistakes on spelling/grammar/syntax.
I have read the whole topic and will write down my opinion on this. Most things I will say are thoughts of others that I agree with.

Things I'd really like to see in:
- BlackJack
- Mechanical Eye
- Rope Arrow (instead of the climbing gloves), and ofc a proper level design for using it.
- Coin/Rock/random junk distraction. Some guards should get fooled, some others not.
- A "pssst!" button, that will have similar effects with the coin/rock thing, just with the difference that now guards will come your way (to finally meet a blackjak in the dark? :P)
- Special tools for (1) lockpicking. Make this a small challenge, not a boring feature. (2) ability to lock/disable doors of certain type, in order to stop the guards from chasing, for a small period of time. After that (10 seconds or something?) the guards will be able to unlock/break the door.
- Metal bracers for half-blocking (reducing damage taken when succesfully blocking an attack, or something similar)

Optional items that would be nice to be in, but no worries if not:
- Leather armour. It would be nice to have it, so that a noob can endure a few hits before duying. You could give louder sounds to Garrett's movements, when he wears it.
- A water-proof bag that lets you swim, since you can pack there all your stuff and keep it dry. (Generally, Garret would be better to be able to swim this time.)
- Strong glue flasks, that will let Garrett put it on floor and make guards walk over it.


Apart from these items, I would also like to see these abilities/characteristics:
- A way to evesdrop through a relatively thin wall, maybe with the use of a small, simple thing, or by simple putting his ear on wall surface. A thief not being able to evesdrop on the next room? Isn't that a bit lame?
- Lifetime limit on certain items, such as magic arrows losing their magic ability after a certain period of time. This one is important, as it would help giving a good reason to spend money.
- Some items should not go from mission to mission, while others should stay within Garrett's inventory. Im not very persistant on this, just a thought. Someone said that he doesn't want to have to visit every ventor before every single mission, to get again what was already his. What about puting more ventors, or giving ventors a wider range of diferrent stuff to offer?
- Ability to disarm almost all opponents if you manage to get close enough in stealth mode. Then they cannot fight you, except they have a secondary weapon (eg. dagger).
- It would be cool to have items to have a possibility of disfunction when used. I mean, when you e.g. are using a flash bomb, it may have a possibility (10%?) to not work properly, bursting in your hand before you throw it, or throwing it at enemy and not blowing. Something similar could happen to a few more weapons, to add a luck-factor, that will create a greater challenge for even an expert. On very difficult mode, possibility of misfunction could increase (19%?), so that things can go messy more easily, and pple have to stick with simplier stuff to avoid messing up (eg. blackjack, ghost mode, etc)
- Nate said he wants something uber expensive to spend money on, but it has to give a small improvement, so that it doesn't ruin challenge on ghost mode. Even then, it is more possible someone would not be interested in paying the money to make the game he has "mastered" any more easy. So, what I suggest is to have expensive (for normal players) and uber expensive rewards in different ways: (1) unlocking additional artwork (much like Prince of Perjia worked), (2) unlocking a few funny cheats, (3) give a specific ventor the availability of a new looking costume for Garrett, something looking very nice, (4) Im not a developer, I can't think of anything else , any other ideas? I believe there could be some intersting rewards, we only have to look in other games, or just sit an imagine... Main point is to reward the player in a way to not make the gameplay easier, yet give him something that he wants, something interesting.
- Weight/Encumbrance. So much debate for this. My main point in this would be to see somehow the player being limited in what he can carry. No looting burden, no. But I think weighting weapons could work. Just don't overdo it. Only a little tiny. My preferred opinion is this:

Originally Posted by nate

to better represent a more 'realistic' and thief like gear load out, we could have the Highest 'Carry Capacity' Difficulty reduce Garrett's carry capacity to SOMETHING like the following:

-Garrett can carry a bow, 1 holy vial, 1 healing potion, 1 gas grenade, 2 flashbangs, and lockpicks
-Depending on how the player wants to approach the mission, Garrett must choose between a blackjack OR a dagger...but not both. Also, Garrett can't choose a longer/heavier short sword.
-Garrett can carry a max of 12 arrows (maybe stored in a side quiver attached to the bow). He would have complete freedom to choose WHICH 12 arrows he wants to carry (ie, 12 water arrows, or 12 broadhead arrows, or 3/3/3/3 water/fire/moss/noise arrows, or whatever combination the players wants to carry)....I am a bit worried about players simply choosing 12 gas arrows = uber arrows. Maybe they can make the gas arrows (and gas mines) uber expensive?

Just PLZ no individual item limit. I would hate to see a system that you can carry 12 arrows maximum, but only 2 of them can be gas arrows.....why can't I have 12 gas arrows if I want (as long as I can find or buy them)?

All that said, I still prefer the idea of each item/weapon/armor piece having an encumbrance value that can effect stealth/speed stats. It would appeal to multiple play style preferences and add replayability to the game.

But if the devs can't do a weight/encumbrance system, I could still be happy with Crypto's idea for a 'Carry Capacity' difficulty setting that controls how much equipment/weapons Garrett can carry.

Concerning the much debated items:
Before you judge me hard, let me explain myself. All this debate about what items to have. Let me introduce them to you, the way I see them, and then wait till i say how they can work in game:
- Dagger. I personally believe the dagger alone isn't needed, because of Blackjack. Only reason to add dagger, is if they make the blackjack only stunning and not killing.
- Throwing daggers. Damn cool. I would really like to see them, BUT in really tiny numbers (1 or 2 in a mission) and not re-collectable. They can be poisoned (parallising for a small period of time, or making a guard loosing control of senses, thus walking randomly to a direction, risking him going to the opposite way of the one you want him to go) or normal daggers, that can be used as a one or two-hit killers. This would be similar to broadhead arrows. Also, the thr. daggers could have the ability to undo the undead, so that's an extra use of them asside with holy water.
- Sword. A sword should be a short one, and could have a later replacement by a better one, since later you could also be facing harder guards. But not a long sword, not at least from the beginning. Because-you-simply-are-a-thief! Good and logical to have something to defend yorself when need arises, but that's all. Additionaly, to prevent player from killing a lot with it, you can give it a crappy damage. So, it has the best defence (aka block) you can have, but it doesn't allow you to attack, at least not that easily. You still have to rely on other means to kill/stun/bypass an enemy.
- Bow. Ofc. How could it not be included? But I would really like to see it as OPTIONAL. How cool would it be to go into a mission without even a bow, only your blackjack, your eye and the hood
- CrossBow? Yes! I would like to be able to take a crossbow instead or along a bow. Difference? It could be that it only fires broadhead bolts (which could also be removed from normal bow, but I wouldn't vote for this), and most of all, it could be used to "nail" those rope arrows, when you want to put them in sheer stone/really tought matterals. A bow is good to throw an arrow-rope. But what about a huge rock, stones and the such? It would be cool to be able to use a crossbow for this. It is known that xbows have extra power for less range and slower reload. Also, when using broadhead bolts, it could have a nice nockback effect on an enemy, especially those who are not well-armoured. Ofc, the xbow could come at much higher costs, both the xbow and the bolts, so that you disnecourage the player from using it often, plus helping with giving something to put your money on (better economy system on the whole).
- Flash Bombs and Flash Mines? Y not! You can have the one being sold in certain ventors, while the other in different ventors. So you choose the one closer to you or you take all the way to go to the vendor that has what flash-thing you want.

Ofc I'm not crazy, and as I'll write later, I don't want Garrett to be a superkilling machine. What I am suggesting is this:
Find a way (ventor item availability control, maybe using proper storyline? Graduation!) to give the player both o the similar items, other times simultaneously, others not. It's all about what freedom you give to the player. If the developers are careful enough, they can give you the correct choices, so that you can play with the one or the other choice, or let you choose which one you want.
Here is an example. It is big and maybe kinda boring, so read it only if you have the time:P :

(I will be referring to all other items as "standard stuff", except the dagger/throwing daggers, sword, xbow, flash bombs, flash mines. Bows included to "standard stuff")
Mission_1. You can have a throwing-dagger set (2knifes) along with the standard stuff, and play the mission. When mission ends, the player cannot buy other daggers atm. If he played them, he lost them.
Mission_2. Before this mission you can go to vendors, where you see a sword, but you still cannot buy it due to its cost. You have to play this mission without a dagger or a sword. Standard stuff only.
Mission_3. You now have enough money for a short sword. A sword generally is a classic equipment, while the throwing daggers are a bit rare to find. You learn to defend yourself with the sword, and pick a fight when you have messed that bad.
Mission_4. You can now buy flash bombs from vendors, and make good use of them. You also have your sword.
Mission_5. According to the storyline, someone gives you again thr. daggers, and you can use them here. Lets assume they have the ability to stun the undead (are they silver?) and this is an undead mission. Cool to have 2 of these daggers in your belt, isn't it?
Mission_6. After mission5, you are again out of daggers (maybe), but now vendors sell them normally,.. at a price ofc! And it's not a low one. In this mission6, when you reach a certain enemy (something like a mission boss, or a special guard), you have the (one and only?) opportunity to steal from him his crossbow. You take it and there you are, with a nice crossbow on you back, but unable to use it (no bolts!).
Mission_7. A new vendor is added to the map, as new areas are accessible. You now have the ability to buy bolts from this as well as other vendors. But only bolts, not xbows. In case you don't want your xbow, you can leave it in your room before a mission. You now can climb to areas you couldnt before, since the xbow allows you to throw bolt-ropes into stones.

This is just a way it could work, I don't say I am making the game, just a simple (pathetic) scenario to give you the idea. I hope you understood what I was trying to tell you.

All in all, it's not if they have this or that item in (swords against daggers?), but it certainly is a matter of how you offer this to the player, and how you balance it out





Other thoughts concerning items:
- Please don't go rpg-like. Keep the style of items we have so far. New items enable you new abilities, but I would not like to see level1 bow, level2 bow, level3 bow - lvl1 rope, lvl2 rope - etc. Also keep the more medievalish weapons and mehanical structures, than the magical/fantasy ones. Generally, keep it Thief matterial, don't go extremely into fantasy. It's much more genuine this way imho, if that makes sense.
- Focus on stealthy tactics, not on fighting ones, when it comes to items. Give Garrett fighting weapons, but focus on the stealthy ones. These are the ones that should have real depth and intersting gameplay design. Not the fighting ones. That is for example, don't put some crossbow with one-hit shots in the game. Would ruin everything.
- Make stealth need real skill (pretty much as it was in previous titles, or even better if it can be).
- This one is the most important thing, maybe in the whole game: You should really focus on the way missions are gameplayed. Items are already pretty much ok. Even if you don't change them at all (with 1-2 exceptions), I don't think we will be that unhappy. BUT. What will bring the real interest in the new title, is to FOCUS on the way a mission has to be carried out. Not that much on the weapons you use, but on the thoughts, the ideas, the effeciency one has to put to gather his loot and make his way out. I don't say this was missing in previous titles, but focusing on this can make the new title be different than other games out. The more cleverly the levels and missions are designed, the more potential you put in this title. Don't give us for example some super cool weapons, and then give us stupid missions, or the same missions as before (which were very nice on the whole, very cool). FOCUS ON THE WAY ONE CAN PLAY THE MISSIONS! They are the essense of the game.


Thanks for your time. Any ideas on my post are welcome. I hope developers will pay some attention on this thread after all

[Nate]

Hi akalest0s!

I always liked the 'limited lifespan' on magic equipment concept. IT ACTUALLY EXPLAINED WHY GARRETT HAD TO KEEP BUYING NEW EQUIPMENT IN THE FIRST 2 GAMES....lol!