"THE ARMOURY: Tools of Your Trade" - Weapons/Equipment Discussion Thread

[Platinumoxicity]

I think the encumberance system should be scrapped without exception just because it doesn't make the game any more fun. If you take a neutral factor in a game and make it into something that is not fun, you make the game worse.

[ToMegaTherion]

The only reason to have encumbrance in a game is to stop the player carrying around so much stuff it makes things too easy, or so much stuff that they get confused about what they have. THe latter doesn't happen, and the former can surely be dealt with in better ways in a Thief game.

[Yaphy]

Dont punish players for taking loot. I dont think weight system is the best idea. What about if you can take as much loot as you want. But when you play at hard you can carry less Equipment then when youre playing on normal. Is it a better idea or is it just to scrap it? Just an idea...

[BlooferLady]

Haven't had time to read the whole thread, but here's my opinion. I think that there's nothing really in the arsenal that needs to be taken out. I never took issue with the climbing gloves, but I did like the suggestion of climbable surfaces to replace them. I think the devs should focus on perfecting what's already established, rather than trying to add more gadgets/gizmos/magical sundry to make the game flashy and cool.

A lot of the ideas we're seeing here, while good and inventive and all that, serve the same function as already established weaponry. Why would you need drugs and potions to put guards to sleep? Gas arrow the suckers already! Some of the items that people have suggested sound really cool, (the stones that make patches of darkness) but possibly should only be included as a fun toy to use on specific missions. You're average fence is not going to carry mystical diamonds of darkness, but I could very easily see such a thing existing in the sunken citadel or lost city. And once you're done with that mission, that's all you get! Kind of like the plums/fruit you find in TDP in the Escape mission. That's the only food that heals you.

I liked the idea for gas/flash/normal mines that you can somehow attach to a wall/ceiling. That'll teach those zombies to avoid that section of the floor! But that's an add-on to existing stuff. See what I mean?

So: Keep what you've got, including stuff from the original 2 games (rope arrows, scouting orbs). Be very sparing on what you put in!

[Nate]

I would be fine with weight/encumbrance values only on equipment/weapons/armor....leaving you free to carry as much loot as you want without stealth/speed penalties.

[Nate]

Hi Crypto, a couple of points for you.

1) It seems we are 'close enough' on agreement for how much Garrett's equipment/weapons/clothing weights. A few pounds here or there don't make too much diff.

2) Also, you are under the impression that I want a Thief game where Garrett is so loaded down with stuff, he can barely move......This Isn't The Case.

I would simply like some sort of weight/encumbrance system that gives STEALTH/CLIMBING SPEED penalties for players who take TONS of equipment/weapons/armor with them into missions.....notice I am giving up on a basic 'SPEED' penalty as players would get pissed if Garrett walked/ran slower and took longer to finish missions.

This would make 2 different play styles. One for Ghost/minimalist players, and one for Equipment/pack-mule players. Both strategies would work, but would require different tactics to succeed = more re playability.

3) Also, to avoid Ghost players ending up with tons of $ that they have no use for, I would like to see uber expensive items/weapons/armor/equipment/magic items in the game....but these special items should only give tiny bonuses over standard stuff so the game isn't unbalanced.

[Espion]

Has anyone mentioned some kind of dousing rags for putting out torches if you're stood right next to them instead of wasting a water arrow?

It would probably unbalance the game though as you'd end up with so many water arrows.

That said, if you gave water arrows more uses, for example some people might still use the Builder's Children, you could use them to short out electrical machines, soak a guard to distract him/make him move from a position just long enough for you to slip by... It just kinda makes sense that you wouldn't waste an expensive arrow if you're stood next to a torch

[Crypto]

Originally Posted by Nate

Hi Crypto, a couple of points for you.

1) It seems we are 'close enough' on agreement for how much Garrett's equipment/weapons/clothing weights. A few pounds here or there don't make too much diff.

They do when they add up to a difference of over seventy pounds.

I would simply like some sort of weight/encumbrance system that gives STEALTH/CLIMBING SPEED penalties for players who take TONS of equipment/weapons/armor with them into missions.....notice I am giving up on a basic 'SPEED' penalty as players would get pissed if Garrett walked/ran slower and took longer to finish missions.

I think they should just ration your equipment based on difficulty level. For example, on Easy you can carry fifty arrows total, but on Expert you can only carry twenty-five.

This would make 2 different play styles. One for Ghost/minimalist players, and one for Equipment/pack-mule players. Both strategies would work, but would require different tactics to succeed = more re playability.

So you mean players who play like thieves versus players who treat the game like Quake.

3) Also, to avoid Ghost players ending up with tons of $ that they have no use for, I would like to see uber expensive items/weapons/armor/equipment/magic items in the game....but these special items should only give tiny bonuses over standard stuff so the game isn't unbalanced.[/QUOTE]
This could work, but I don't see how it could be pulled off without dramatically butchering stealth gameplay.

[Platinumoxicity]

Originally Posted by Crypto

3) Also, to avoid Ghost players ending up with tons of $ that they have no use for, I would like to see uber expensive items/weapons/armor/equipment/magic items in the game....but these special items should only give tiny bonuses over standard stuff so the game isn't unbalanced.

Or maybe use the old system where money doesn't carry over missions? It worked before until T3 changed that and money started flowing in endlessly.

[DarthEnder]

Originally Posted by Crypto

I think they should just ration your equipment based on difficulty level. For example, on Easy you can carry fifty arrows total, but on Expert you can only carry twenty-five.

I agree sort of, except I don't think having a hard cap is nessecary.

Simply lowering the amount of equipment you start with, and then lowering the amount of equipment available in the store based on what difficulty you're playing, For example on Normal you'd get 20 Arrows, and there would be 30 arrows for sale in the shop. But on Expert you only get 10 Arrows, and 15 arrows in the shop. And of course, starting equipment and store stocks are different for each level.

Since I don't think there should be a city hub, there's no need for a hard cap on equipment since you can never have more than Starting Equipment+Store Stocks+What you pickup mid-level.

[TazmanianD]

Originally Posted by Crypto

I think they should just ration your equipment based on difficulty level. For example, on Easy you can carry fifty arrows total, but on Expert you can only carry twenty-five.

I don't like the idea of putting a limit on what Garrett can carry (that irritated me in TDS when I had money, but couldn't buy what I wanted). I think a better idea what be to alter the amount of items available for purchase or their prices based on difficulty.

Although I'm not so sure about that either. Increased difficulty levels mean that you earn more gold as a result of higher objectives. Shouldn't there be some reward for doing that above and beyond satisfying the objectives for its own sake (otherwise you could play on an easier difficulty, but play as if on a higher one)?

[DoomyDoomyDoomDoom]

I like having to plan for a mission. Deciding what you may need for the mission is part of the fun. I'd like to have a general 'encumbrance' bar. Each item has an encumbrance value. You can take as much of whatever you want so long as the accumulated encumbrance is no higher than the limit. On easier difficulties you have a higher limit. On harder difficulties you have a lower limit.

super basic example: "5 mines or 15 arrows? or 9 arrows and 2 mines? or maybe a bottle of holy water 8, arrows, and a couple flash bombs?oh woe is me I can't decide!"

Very simple and I like it much better than an individual limit on each item. Only issue then is how the game will handle pricing and availability.

[WVI]

Originally Posted by mister_riz

Remove climbing gloves as this ruined the game for me (so easy to escape guards)

See, this is not forward thinking. Instead, keep the climbing gloves and make it so the guards aren't morons whenever they're involved.

[Crypto]

Originally Posted by TazmanianD

I don't like the idea of putting a limit on what Garrett can carry (that irritated me in TDS when I had money, but couldn't buy what I wanted).

In TDS I never used up all my items in a single level, and trust me, I did plenty of screwing around. Setting a low limit would encourage players challenging themselves on Expert to be conservative with arrows, flash bombs, etc.

[Nate]

Well done Crypto. I have to say I Iike your idea about introducing a 'Carry Capacity' Game Difficulty option that effects how much equipment you can carry....as long as Garrett has complete choice over what to carry.

So to better represent a more 'realistic' and thief like gear load out, we could have the Highest 'Carry Capacity' Difficulty reduce Garrett's carry capacity to SOMETHING like the following:

-Garrett can carry a bow, 1 holy vial, 1 healing potion, 1 gas grenade, 2 flashbangs, and lockpicks
-Depending on how the player wants to approach the mission, Garrett must choose between a blackjack OR a dagger...but not both. Also, Garrett can't choose a longer/heavier short sword.
-Garrett can carry a max of 12 arrows (maybe stored in a side quiver attached to the bow). He would have complete freedom to choose WHICH 12 arrows he wants to carry (ie, 12 water arrows, or 12 broadhead arrows, or 3/3/3/3 water/fire/moss/noise arrows, or whatever combination the players wants to carry)....I am a bit worried about players simply choosing 12 gas arrows = uber arrows. Maybe they can make the gas arrows (and gas mines) uber expensive?

Just PLZ no individual item limit. I would hate to see a system that you can carry 12 arrows maximum, but only 2 of them can be gas arrows.....why can't I have 12 gas arrows if I want (as long as I can find or buy them)?

All that said, I still prefer the idea of each item/weapon/armor piece having an encumbrance value that can effect stealth/speed stats. It would appeal to multiple play style preferences and add replayability to the game.

But if the devs can't do a weight/encumbrance system, I could still be happy with Crypto's idea for a 'Carry Capacity' difficulty setting that controls how much equipment/weapons Garrett can carry.

Oh, one last thing for Crypto. Just pointing out that the amount Garrett carries (while controlled by YOU) is about 35 lbs. Please keep in mind that you carry only a SMALL fraction of what Garrett was allowed to carry in Deadly Shadows. I applaud you for playing Garrett in a more realistic and challenging way.

[Crypto]

Oh, one last thing for Crypto. Just pointing out that the amount Garrett carries (while controlled by YOU) is about 35 lbs. Please keep in mind that you carry only a SMALL fraction of what Garrett was allowed to carry in Deadly Shadows. I applaud you for playing Garrett in a more realistic and challenging way.

My point is that TDS allowed for an unnecessary amount of equipment.

If we get the blackjack (and we should, because it's a Thief icon), we have no need for a dagger. They share the same purpose, only the dagger is less honorable because it ... um, murders. So we might as well roll with the (short) sword.

But after all my raging, I wouldn't really mind if there was no item limit. In fact, I'm more worried about going overboard on encumbrance.

Nate, upon rethinking your ideal encumbrance system, I think it actually is a pretty good idea. I can imagine ditching the bow and running around quick as hell with nothing but a blackjack and/or short sword ... That would be pretty awesome.

Of course, I'm probably the only madman on this forum who would ever forgo the bow in the first place.

[Nate]

Originally Posted by Crypto

Nate, upon rethinking your ideal encumbrance system, I think it actually is a pretty good idea. I can imagine ditching the bow and running around quick as hell with nothing but a blackjack and/or short sword ... That would be pretty awesome.

Of course, I'm probably the only madman on this forum who would ever forgo the bow in the first place.

Lol. No man, you aren't the only madman who would think that would be cool.

I would also love to be able to go into a mission with just a blackjack at 100% stealth potential VERSUS loaded up with bows/arrows/flashbangs/short sword/holy water vials BUT at only 70-80% stealth potential.

However, I see your point that it would be easy for the devs to go too far with this encumbrance system.

[Platinumoxicity]

Stealth percentage system is idiotic because every time you have a different set of equipment with you, you haven't gotten used to your own visibility and it doesn't feel right. It doesn't feel professional, because your stealth isn't anymore dependant only of your tactics and skills, but numbers instead. It creates realism in the expence of immersion, and that's not good.

[TazmanianD]

Originally Posted by Crypto

In TDS I never used up all my items in a single level, and trust me, I did plenty of screwing around.

I think I used up my flash bombs and holy water in the haunted ship and the cradle. At least I remember wishing that I could have taken more with me. Aside from fighting the undead, I'm with you in that I always have equipment left over but felt like I didn't have enough fighting the undead.

[Nate]

Originally Posted by Platinumoxicity

Stealth percentage system is idiotic because every time you have a different set of equipment with you, you haven't gotten used to your own visibility and it doesn't feel right. It doesn't feel professional, because your stealth isn't anymore dependant only of your tactics and skills, but numbers instead. It creates realism in the expence of immersion, and that's not good.

Hi Bud! Just checking here, but would you prefer a Carry Capacity Difficulty Setting (easy/medium/hard/expert) in regards to how much equipment Garrett can carry around INSTEAD of an encumbrance system? This would mean that you can change game difficulty settings to control how much stuff Garrett can ran around with (which would have no effect on Stealth/Speed stats).

Let us know. Thanks Platinumoxicity!

[WVI]

Hmm...Has anyone considered a shield or something? Not a big bulky piece of metal per se, but something that might absorb one magic blast out of desperation, then break.

[Nate]

Do you mean Bracers? Actually, I'm surprised that Garrett doesn't already use a Bracer on his arm that holds his bow.

[Crypto]

Originally Posted by Nate

I would also love to be able to go into a mission with just a blackjack at 100% stealth potential VERSUS loaded up with bows/arrows/flashbangs/short sword/holy water vials BUT at only 70-80% stealth potential.

Too many numbers. JK, it's good to know we agree on something.

Originally Posted by TazmanianD

I think I used up my flash bombs and holy water in the haunted ship and the cradle. At least I remember wishing that I could have taken more with me. Aside from fighting the undead, I'm with you in that I always have equipment left over but felt like I didn't have enough fighting the undead.

Well, a lot of players have been saying they don't want undead in T4. Things are shaping up nicely on this front. (To be honest, I'd like to see one undead level.)

[Nate]

Yeah, I would be happy with 1 (or 2 at most) undead levels.......although I would imagine that the city catacombs would have some happy haunts and zombies friends for Garrett to meet.

[DarthEnder]

I burn through my water arrow supply fairly consistently, in the first two games. And I buy every one for sale.

Flash bombs are another item I commonly use up.