"THE ARMOURY: Tools of Your Trade" - Weapons/Equipment Discussion Thread

[DarthEnder]

No reason really. It just seems cooler. Especially when you consider that thieves are supposed to be physically weak, so a draw-string bow is probably not the best weapon for them.

[Nate]

Garrett is anything but weak. He constantly runs/climbs with up to 120 lbs of equipment/weapons/loot on his back.

[Crypto]

Originally Posted by Nate

Garrett is anything but weak. He constantly runs/climbs with up to 120 lbs of equipment/weapons/loot on his back.

I like how you just randomly picked out an obscenely exaggerated number to support your argument.

[kin]

Garrett can carry an infinite amount of loot.

[GmanPro]

Meh. I could haul 120 lbs

Maybe not for miles...

[DarthEnder]

Everyone knows Garrett uses a Bag of Holding.

[Nate]

Originally Posted by Crypto

I like how you just randomly picked out an obscenely exaggerated number to support your argument.

Hi Crypto, I see you don't believe me. Be careful when challenging me like that, I am always happy to provide support for my arguments.

Here is a list of Garrett's standard equipment and the total weight per item type (times the number he carries).

-Bow: = 5 lbs

-Blackjack: = 2 lbs

-arrow + big crystal tips:1/2 lbs per arrow (before you say BS, do some research on hunting arrow shaft and tip weight). Since Garrett carries in Thief DS 100 arrows = 50 lbs

-dagger: = 1 lbs

-flash grenades: real life grenades of this type are 2 lbs each...Garrett carries 5 = 10 lbs

-gas grenade: I think Garrett can only carry 5 of these (give them the same weight as flashbangs) = 10 lbs

-holy water vials: Garrett carries 5 and they are likely smaller than the graphic in the game = 3 lbs

-mines: Garrett carries 5 of these mini antipersonel mines = 15 lbs

-healing potions: (5 total) = 3 lbs

-Climbing gloves: don't really know, but I would estimate about = 2 lbs

-tools: Garrett's tools are pretty much on lockpicks. He doesn't seem to use glass cutters, pry bars, drills, saws or anything else like that = 0 lbs

-Outfit: Garrett does wear an outfit with utility pockets and a cloak = 6 lbs

OKAY, so we are already at a total equipment/weapon weight of 105 lbs for Garrett's DRY WEIGHT (without loot).

Throw in a standard haul of gold (which is heavy in case you don't know), jewelry, paintings, odds and ends = Garrett running/climbing around with up to 120 lbs of weight on him seems like a pretty conservative figure. In fact, Garrett will likely sometimes be carrying MORE like 160 lbs on missions when he grabs a lot of gold and some heavy loot items. I was being generous with 120 lbs.

I know most people don't think about equipment weight in real world terms, I just happen to have a lot of experience with that sort of thing and am very aware of how weight packs on very quickly. I personally find carrying 10 lbs in tools and a pack with 60 lbs in it VERY PAINFUL for more than 200 meters (I can manage a few kilometers with short rests along the way)...and I am in very good shape and am stronger than average. Also, I can only manage a standard walk speed (with a semi-jog shuffle for short range).

Garrett would not be able to move very fast or far with that kind of weight (let alone the 'up to' 160 lbs he seems to carry daily). He wouldn't be able to climb at all. And he would be noisy and noticeable.....I don't know how he walks across town with all this stuff on his back!?!

This is why I would love to see the devs make Thief 4 with a weight/encumbrance system. Each item would have a weight/encumbrance value that penalizes Garrett's Stealth/Speed. Players who go into missions with a 'everything but the kitchen sink' mentality shouldn't even be close to being as stealthy as the guy who goes in with just his lockpicks and blackjack.

[Platinumoxicity]

Originally Posted by Nate

This is why I would love to see the devs make Thief 4 with a weight/encumbrance system. Each item would have a weight/encumbrance value that penalizes Garrett's Stealth/Speed. Players who go into missions with a 'everything but the kitchen sink' mentality shouldn't even be close to being as stealthy as the guy who goes in with just his lockpicks and blackjack.

Does that mean that those who (like me) like to not use tools at all could carry all the loot they wanted but those who like to knock out guards and douse torches would have to run back and forth between stealing and stashing their loot in some part of the level? I don't think that would be too fair for new players who are inexperienced in ghosting.

[TeoRocker]

I'd like to be able to produce some kind of noise without having to use an arrow or noise making arrow. Most times I just jump on the ground to do that, but there are times when I want to do it whilst stepping on grass, or without making myself visible (jumping has that effect, sometimes). Maybe a "pssst" key or something equivalent could do the trick.

This wouldn't render the use of arrows useless, because they can still be used to create noise away from you.

[Flashart]

If "real world" physics were applied strictly, you'd end up taking a holdall of stuff and
stashing it then returning for supplies. Fine if people want it, but if there's loading zones or
"points of no return" it will soon get frustrating. Failing that, make sure there's enough gear
scattered throughout the level, again I can see problems.
I tend to Semi-ghost, so can get by with fairly minimal needs. Others may like to take advantage of every piece of equipment available, again I have no problem with that providing
a sensible compromise of inventory management is implemented.
The loot however is a tricky issue. To keep the levels and variety of loot interesting throughout the levels and keep "real world" belief means most loot is gonna be coin, note or jewelry maybe the odd picture and a couple of candle sticks.
In TMA you ended up carrying steel plates and gauges and all sorts, I was more concerned with doing it than questioning whether it was physically possible.

[Prince_VLAD]

Maybe sword should be let to gamer's choice.You want it, pick it up and carry it.
If you have the gloves which does the same good job as the vine arrow, why bother changing ? Just for ...tradition thing?
I would like to see a GOOD animation when you backstab someone with two daggers ! That would be nice.
I would like to see a short hammer with good animation when you hit them hard ...lol
Maybe it would be INTERESTING if you have the weapons GRADUALLY It would make things more interesting...

[Nate]

Originally Posted by Platinumoxicity

Does that mean that those who (like me) like to not use tools at all could carry all the loot they wanted but those who like to knock out guards and douse torches would have to run back and forth between stealing and stashing their loot in some part of the level? I don't think that would be too fair for new players who are inexperienced in ghosting.

Hi Platinumoxicity. Actually, I don't need to see a 'realistic' Garrett so loaded down with equipment/loot that he can barely move (although it would be entertaining having Garrett with a repertoire of complaints for when he is overloaded).

I just want to see players who carry a lot of equipment/loot suffer a stealth/speed penalty...and it can be relatively minor, I just want there to be a penalty.

So, ghost players who take the bare minimum equipment into a mission and who only steal light loot = 100% stealth/speed.

Players who take extra equipment into a mission and who steal everything = 83% stealth/speed.

Players who take a full equipment load out into a mission and who steal everything = 65% stealth/speed.

Hmmmm since reducing running/walking/sneaking speed could really make missions last longer (irritating for non Ghost players), the devs could maybe only reduce CLIMBING SPEED instead.

Also, as you use up equipment during a mission, you would become lighter = stealth/speed stats increase. Or, you could drop items during your mission to lighten your load.

[huzi73]

Ffs this is not Oblivion!Adding encumberence would make this game suck!Hell,i wouldnt buy it if it had encumberence.Thief/Thief 2 had gas & fire arrows which werent affected by gravity.This wasnt done to muck up the game for purists looking for realistic physics,but rather with the intent of adding diversity as well as unique-ness to the game,if games had to go for a 100% realistic approach,then no game would be fun.Period

[Petike the Taffer]

I already wrote about this in another thread, but oh well...

I like most of the ideas for the newer gear.

Personally, I would like to see nearly every piece of gear from all previous three games...

...except potions ! The health potion can stay, but the others are totally silly and just ruin the realism and challenge of the gameplay. I honestly hate them. Droping other magical thingies (like Forgbeast Eggs) is more debatable, but I think you could certainly live without them...

Scouting orbs should make a comeback, as well as the mechanical eye (I prefer the more steampunkish and practical version shown in TDS). This depends on the presence of Garrett, though. If he wouldn't show up, adding some sort of "flexible steampunk periscope" for safe snooping behind corners would be nice.

The lockpicking system should remain similar to the one from TDS - the TDP and TMA version was good for it's time, but is very boring and overly simplistic these days.

Other things that should return :

The blackjack, both the sword and the dagger, the bow (with it's typical window-shaped metal crosshair and a zoom capability), broadhead arrows, noisemaker arrows, all four elemental arrows, climbing arrows (rope and vine) as well as (improved and visible !) climbing gloves...

Keep both the flash and the gas variety of hand-thrown bombs and mines, as well as explosive mines. Bring back the holy water vials from TDP and their ability to consecrate water arrows, in addition to the holy water flask (for killing undead, of course).


And now, my ideas about new additions :

The flask-weapons idea deserves some expanding upon. Besides the oil and holy water flask, I would fancy the idea of a "glue flask" - smash it underneath your opponents legs and watch them get caught in the sticky muck !

You should have the choice to choose between a "light" and "heavy" weapon for both the melee and archery slot in your arnament inventory (before going on a mission or a walk through the City streets).

In addition to the bow, there should be a shorter crossbow - but not a "pistol crossbow", please ! It should feature a crosshair similar to that of the bow. Crossbows are already featured in many Thief II fan missions, along with other nice weapon mods.

Melee weapons slot :

Dagger - light, more stealthy, weaker in hand-to-hand combat
Sword - heavy, better for swordfighting (including blocking slashes), but much more heavier than the dagger, giving Garrett a slight speed disadvantage (even when not drawn, just to keep it consistently realistic)

Archery weapons slot :

Bow - light, can shoot further, arrows arc after being shot
Crossbow - heavy, shorter range, but more accurate and powerful, has a simple rewinding mechanism

Another interesting addition could be a sort of "tactical door wedge" (like in SWAT 4), or a variation of it - a "tactical door lock". You can only carry a few (say, a maximum of three) and they are supposed to be used when you desperately try to gain some time to avoid getting ambushed or caught. Once deployed, nobody should be able to open or unlock the door for a longer amount of time, except you. The wedge or lock should be able to hold off the attackers for at least 4-5 minutes, enough time to escape or figure out something until they ram the door and break in violently.

As for the number of equipment you can carry - there should be a fixed limit, like in TDS. It would sure add to the realism (Garrett is a normal human, not a one-man army or packhorse)
and the challenge. As far as visuals go, Garrett (while in third person view) should have the main weapons and the most crucial equipment also displayed on the outside, so it would look more naturally.

[huzi73]

Originally Posted by Petike the Taffer

Personally, I would like to see nearly every piece of gear from all previous three games...

...except potions ! The health potion can stay, but the others are totally silly and just ruin the realism and challenge of the gameplay. I honestly hate them. Droping other magical thingies (like Forgbeast Eggs) is more debatable, but I think you could certainly live without them...

Scouting orbs should make a comeback, as well as the mechanical eye (I prefer the more steampunkish and practical version shown in TDS). This depends on the presence of Garrett, though. If he wouldn't show up, adding some sort of "flexible steampunk periscope" for safe snooping behind corners would be nice.

The lockpicking system should remain similar to the one from TDS - the TDP and TMA version was good for it's time, but is very boring and overly simplistic these days.

Other things that should return :

The blackjack, both the sword and the dagger, the bow (with it's typical window-shaped metal crosshair and a zoom capability), broadhead arrows, noisemaker arrows, all four elemental arrows, climbing arrows (rope and vine) as well as (improved and visible !) climbing gloves...

Keep both the flash and the gas variety of hand-thrown bombs and mines, as well as explosive mines. Bring back the holy water vials from TDP and their ability to consecrate water arrows, in addition to the holy water flask (for killing undead, of course).


And now, my ideas about new additions :

The flask-weapons idea deserves some expanding upon. Besides the oil and holy water flask, I would fancy the idea of a "glue flask" - smash it underneath your opponents legs and watch them get caught in the sticky muck !

You should have the choice to choose between a "light" and "heavy" weapon for both the melee and archery slot in your arnament inventory (before going on a mission or a walk through the City streets).

In addition to the bow, there should be a shorter crossbow - but not a "pistol crossbow", please ! It should feature a crosshair similar to that of the bow. Crossbows are already featured in many Thief II fan missions, along with other nice weapon mods.

Melee weapons slot :

Dagger - light, more stealthy, weaker in hand-to-hand combat
Sword - heavy, better for swordfighting (including blocking slashes), but much more heavier than the dagger, giving Garrett a slight speed disadvantage (even when not drawn, just to keep it consistently realistic)

Archery weapons slot :

Bow - light, can shoot further, arrows arc after being shot
Crossbow - heavy, shorter range, but more accurate and powerful, has a simple rewinding mechanism

Another interesting addition could be a sort of "tactical door wedge" (like in SWAT 4), or a variation of it - a "tactical door lock". You can only carry a few (say, a maximum of three) and they are supposed to be used when you desperately try to gain some time to avoid getting ambushed or caught. Once deployed, nobody should be able to open or unlock the door for a longer amount of time, except you. The wedge or lock should be able to hold off the attackers for at least 4-5 minutes, enough time to escape or figure out something until they ram the door and break in violently.

As for the number of equipment you can carry - there should be a fixed limit, like in TDS. It would sure add to the realism (Garrett is a normal human, not a one-man army or packhorse)
and the challenge. As far as visuals go, Garrett (while in third person view) should have the main weapons and the most crucial equipment also displayed on the outside, so it would look more naturally.

like I said in a previous post,Thief is not a Jack@$$ movie!PLEASE!NO OIL FLASKS OR GLUE FLASKS!A crossbow,in the real world,is generally heavier an while not as long as a bow,much more bulky.In TDS,Garrets mech eye did NOT look cool!(IMO...)the normal bow should return,but get a make over (please,no steampunk looking bow..)I love my sword!Thief games have defied reality to a great extent,keep it that way,give Garret Constantines sword,pretend its as light as a dagger.Those who want a dagger,should buy 1/select it before missions.This is JUST my opinion.Thief needs to go back to its roots,which dont involve encumberence,auto healing,or oil flasks!

[ZaSpecialist]

Hmm..any ideas of new weapons? Or they are not necesary?

[huzi73]

Well.Im reluctant to point out a crossbow,maybe be even being able to disarm and use Hammers/Mechanist Gears against them?But please,no magic,or stealing mages/shaman staves and using it against them...Infact,i think Thief is perfect,no need for new stuff in this regard(unless someone has a bright idea?)

[kaekaelyn]

I like the oil flasks. I think they're hilarious. Sometimes I think people are just stuck in "Everything from TDS is bad" mode. I love TDP and TMA way beyond TDS, of course, but Thief 4 can go back to Thief's roots without abandoning everything TDS actually had right.

[Neb]

The games are already cluttered with weapons and equipment to cover almost any scenario you're likely to meet. There's really no need for anything else.

If there's anything which is going to enhance gameplay, it's not new weapons, but new AI behaviour.

[supremeDMK]

I don't think that a crossbow would be a good idea since you already have a bow, maybe some throwing knives would be a good idea.

[Petike the Taffer]

Originally Posted by huzi73

Thief needs to go back to its roots

While I don't entirely disagree with your post, just remaking TDP is not such a fortunate decision. I would still mind the breath and speed potions (not as bad as the godawful slow-fall and invisibility potions, but still silly and horribly cheaty). I would also mind the simplistic and boring lockpicking. And, as far as the mech-eye introduced in TMA goes, I never really used it - it's nearly worthless, since all you can do is zoom in and out with it. The TDS one is more cleverly designed - sure, you can object that "it makes Garrett's vision grainy, it suxxx !!!!". But I personally loved it. Garrett's world is an early industrial society, so it makes sence, that even high technology isn't fully perfected and feels somewhat archaic. It fits nicely with the whole steampunk theme of the City's tech. The TDS mech-eye is also not just a simple zoom, it also functions as an improvised night-vision device, allowing to check very dark rooms for threats, so you can avoid bumping into them.

And, actually, the oil flask is one of the few truely realistic weapons used by Garrett. Do you think, that instant-healing potions, holy water that blasts monsters to bits, magical arrows (or even rope arrows !) are more based in reality ? Besides, Thief was always about choices. And I want a lot of choices in Thief IV (on a reasonable level of course). If you don't want a certain type of gear, don't pick it up, or don't buy it. That worked in all three previous games - you weren't forced to frantically stockpile equipment if you didn't want to.

[Yaphy]

(Excuse my poor english)
I like the stuff thats already is in the previous Thief games. Just dont put in to much new gear/items. It will just make things confusing. And as mentioned before: For those who doesnt use so much (or any) gear/items make som VERY expensive stuff. But in that case I dont want things that makes the game easier (like sneak boots). Instead put in new clothes that Garret can buy at an extremely high price. If you dont want the original clothes, you can just buy a new hood. You may have about 3 different hoods, three different boots and three different pants, and so on. I dont want it to be like an RPG game, just a slightly different style that might make Garret look more Badass. Just so we, that doesnt use so much gear/items can have something to spend all $ on.

[Crypto]

Originally Posted by Nate

Hi Crypto, I see you don't believe me. Be careful when challenging me like that, I am always happy to provide support for my arguments.

You're very sure of yourself.

-Bow: = 5 lbs

A medieval longbow weighed a pound and ten ounces. Garrett sure as hell doesn't have a longbow.

-Blackjack: = 2 lbs

I doubt it's that heavy, but it's probably closer to two than one.

-arrow + big crystal tips:1/2 lbs per arrow (before you say BS, do some research on hunting arrow shaft and tip weight). Since Garrett carries in Thief DS 100 arrows = 50 lbs

First of all, don't use TDS to judge the series. Use TDP or TMA. Secondly, I normally carry around twenty-five arrows (something like ten broadheads, three ropes, and twelve waters). So that's twelve and a half pounds.

-dagger: = 1 lbs

Some medieval daggers weigh a little less, but okay.

-flash grenades: real life grenades of this type are 2 lbs each...Garrett carries 5 = 10 lbs

All right.

-gas grenade: I think Garrett can only carry 5 of these (give them the same weight as flashbangs) = 10 lbs

I carry none. Zero pounds.

-holy water vials: Garrett carries 5 and they are likely smaller than the graphic in the game = 3 lbs

All right.

-mines: Garrett carries 5 of these mini antipersonel mines = 15 lbs

I never, ever carry mines. Zero.

-healing potions: (5 total) = 3 lbs

I usually start out with two. Maybe grab a third if it's available. Let's round off at a pound and a half.

-Climbing gloves: don't really know, but I would estimate about = 2 lbs

Since when do gloves weigh two pounds? Anyway, in the first two games of the series, which are widely accepted as the series' best representative, Garrett carries none. Zero pounds ...

-tools: Garrett's tools are pretty much on lockpicks. He doesn't seem to use glass cutters, pry bars, drills, saws or anything else like that = 0 lbs

Okay.

-Outfit: Garrett does wear an outfit with utility pockets and a cloak = 6 lbs

Pockets don't weigh anything ... I doubt a shirt, pants, and cloak weigh more than four pounds, although I could be wrong about the cloak.

Throw in a standard haul of gold (which is heavy in case you don't know), jewelry, paintings, odds and ends = Garrett running/climbing around with up to 120 lbs of weight on him seems like a pretty conservative figure. In fact, Garrett will likely sometimes be carrying MORE like 160 lbs on missions when he grabs a lot of gold and some heavy loot items. I was being generous with 120 lbs.

Why the hell are we measuring loot? That would make just about every secondary-world game extremely unrealistic. This argument is ludicrous.

With my play style (and bear in mind the differences between T1/T2 and T3), I round off at thirty-one pounds. Add fifteen for the loot if you really must and it's forty-six.

[DarthEnder]

How exactly does the fact that you don't carry certain items mean anything to the argument that Garrett must be strong because he carries so much stuff around?

So the Garrett YOU play is physically weaker than other people's Garret because you don't carry mines or gas bombs?

[Crypto]

Originally Posted by DarthEnder

How exactly does the fact that you don't carry certain items mean anything to the argument that Garrett must be strong because he carries so much stuff around?

So the Garrett YOU play is physically weaker than other people's Garret because you don't carry mines or gas bombs?

If you actually took ten seconds to read my post prior to our number crunching, you'd see I didn't actually take a position on the argument. I don't believe Garrett is anemic, but I don't believe he's superhuman because that's not the point of the game. My point is that he sure as doesn't haul around a hundred pounds of equipment. Nate's analysis is influenced by the fact that he bases it on TDS. Mine is influenced by the fact that I base it on TDP and TMA, which are considered by the fan base to be more accurately representative of the trilogy than TDS. In TDS it's incredibly easy to amass a huge amount of items over the course of the missions—not so much the case in TDP and TMA.

Loot: I think it's ridiculous to measure loot because, as I mentioned before, it renders countless otherwise realistic-enough games unrealistic. It doesn't make sense for Nate to include it in his point. What are the developers going to do, eliminate the thieving part of Thief?

Before you fling yourself headlong into the argument, read up on what you're arguing against.