"THE ARMOURY: Tools of Your Trade" - Weapons/Equipment Discussion Thread

[Tryst]

It's just another one of those problems caused by TDS changing the canon. To keep both sides happy, EM would have to allow players to choose with the inclusion of certain penalties for each weapon.

[Vae]

Originally Posted by Hypevosa

Go find a frozen lake that's more than 3 inches thick and swing a short sword against its surface - we'll see how well you can break that ice.

We're not talking about a frozen lake or a wall of ice, we're talking about icicles...there's a big difference, I should know, since I grew up in Minnesota. Your equivocation of icicles with a frozen lake is false.

I'd like to ask where in his post nate said he preferred the dagger?

I didn't...what are you talking about?...

That's right... nowhere in that post.

That's obvious...so why are you manufacturing that I did?...

He simply observed that your posts contained, what he percieved, as an extreme and unhealthy bias - and let you know that you come off that way. You then proceed to jump down his throat for doing the kind thing of informing you of the way you're coming off to others. You further go on to tie ideas to him that he has made no evident relation to, and to make backhanded insults at his intelligence.

Ah, I see the problem now...you thought that when I said he was seeing things through a prism of preference, it meant that he had a dagger preference and therefore was attacking me because of it. This is incorrect. What I meant by that, was he is seeing everything I am saying through a presumption of preference, and he isn't seeing the comparative analysis as objective, only as a vehicle for a biased, preferenced argument. He's implying that I am just trying to foist my owns desires upon others just because I like the sword...this is simply not true, I just want to figure out what weapon/tool would be better for gameplay in T4...regardless of whoever is using it.

My whole intention when doing that comparative analysis was to determine how universally useful each weapon/tool was in a THIEF game. It came out clearly to be the sword, having nothing to do with any personal preference I may of had.

Here is the summarized conclusion:

1) It's simple, really. Because the sword is longer and has more mass, it has greater function and utility as a weapon and as a tool. Period.

2) The dagger can only do some of the things the sword can do, and often not as well...with the one exception of cutting out paintings (assuming there isn't the proper knife available)

3) Any other use that the dagger would hold superiority in, either in another game or in real life, but would not apply in a THIEF game, would negate its' applicability.

Remember, the purpose here is to understand the objective utility of the sword and dagger in the context of a THIEF game. This will affect the gameplay for every player regardless of personal preference.

If you like the dagger because it feels quick and light, and somehow you imagine it being funner for you, that's fine...but this is a subjective personal preference which does not negate the objective truth that the sword is a superior weapon and tool in a THIEF game.

When one decides to look at someone with presumption and prejudice, they are blinded from seeing things as they truly are. Many people do this on a constant basis whether they realize it or not. So, by Nate saying, "Just say you'd prefer the short sword to the dagger, and leave it at that", just shows that he's not looking at things from an objective, analytical point of view, otherwise he would have seen the value of the analysis.

Vae - chill the out. Really - the out.

Settle down Hype...deep breaths...deep breaths...

If someone comes in here and does exactly what you're doing, but switches the sword and dagger, arguing that the sword is utterly useless in every way except for maybe one thing, and that the dagger has capabilities it actually doesn't, and cheats the sword out of nearly all its possible uses outside of maybe blocking, go ahead and pour your passion into that bashing rebuttal. In fact, I promise that I'll be right there to join you.

Well, of course you would. It is obvious that after doing a comparative analysis on the sword vs dagger, the sword clearly wins. Even if I had a personal preference for the dagger I would have to admit that. It's not that I'm saying the dagger hasn't any use as a tool...it does, it's just not as versatile and useful as the sword is in a THIEF game, that's all. This conclusion has nothing to do with any personal preference for the sword, it's simply objective. Your feelings are just hurt because you've wanted the dagger in the game from the beginning, which is fine....just separate the difference between personal want and analysis...OK?

[Platinumoxicity]

I believe that the only reason why Ion Storm replaced the sword with a dagger in TDS was because they had hard time programming a swordfighting system. And fighting in 3rd person would've been too hard because you can't really see where the blows are coming from in order to parry them. The TDS engine was a mess and we wouldn't be having this discussion about the sword/dagger comparison if TDS wouldn't have been ruined. Why not? Because if TDS would've had an improved swordfighting system and no dagger, anyone bringing up a dagger in discussion about new weapons would quickly understand that it's just an inferior version of the sword, and having it in the sequel would be redundant because there already is a tool that does all of it's work and more.

[Nate]

Platinumoxicity has a good point there.

As for Vae's arguments, if you want to contribute logical arguments for/against in the short sword/dagger debate, it seems you forgot stealth (the main principle behind the game).

Having a short sword would hinder stealth FAR more than a dagger....in fact, a combination of dagger and small pry bar would do anything the short sword could do but better (with the one exception of fighting). Dagger and pry bar would have far less stealth killing mass/size when compared to a single short sword.

I'd like to see the short sword as the main weapon and would not usually bother to point out arguments in favor of the dagger, but your arguments are SO BIASED and FABRICATED it is hard to just let it slide.

[Vae]

Originally Posted by Nate

Platinumoxicity has a good point there.

Originally Posted by Platinumoxicity

...anyone bringing up a dagger in discussion about new weapons would quickly understand that it's just an inferior version of the sword, and having it in the sequel would be redundant because there already is a tool that does all of it's work and more.

Yeah, I agree. This is what I've been saying...I just added a comparative analysis to prove it.

As for Vae's arguments, if you want to contribute logical arguments for/against in the short sword/dagger debate, it seems you forgot stealth (the main principle behind the game).

No, I didn't...and either did Platinum...

Originally Posted by Platinumoxicity

The sword when sheathed is perfectly hidden under Garrett's cloak as seen in T1. None of the guards in the streets ever paid attention to him. And it's really not long enough for it's length to give it away. And even if Garrett wasn't wearing the cloak during a mission, it wouldn't matter whether the sword was visible or not because nobody ever sees Garrett anyway.

Having a short sword would hinder stealth FAR more than a dagger.

What are you talking about? Now you're just saying things...

...in fact, a combination of dagger and small pry bar would do anything the short sword could do but better (with the one exception of fighting). Dagger and pry bar would have far less stealth killing mass/size when compared to a single short sword.

This isn't Half Life. There isn't going to be a pry-bar dagger combo in THIEF, and therefore it is irrelevant.

I'd like to see the short sword as the main weapon and would not usually bother to point out arguments in favor of the dagger, but your arguments are SO BIASED and FABRICATED it is hard to just let it slide.

Why on earth do you say this? I've presented concise analysis that shows the sword as the clear objective winner...why is this so hard to understand?

[Asadar]

We could have the choice to buy a dagger or a sword in Thief 4:
The dagger is discreet and can kill without noise, but it is ridiculous to single combat.
The sword is heavy and cumbersome, does not allow murder, or fairly noisy. Instead it is the best way to defend himselve once detected.

Both leaving traces of blood and maybe breakables, so I still prefer the good old club!

Or replace them both by a form of scramasax or mercygiver (sorts of close combats dagger also used as short sword).

[Nate]

Lol Vae...you take a quote from me praising Platinumoxicity and then attach it to one of his other points that you agree with but that I never commented on.....lame dude! You should work for the National Enquirer! Misquoting people seems to be your strong suit.

Also, love how you try to force Plantnumoxicity into your 'camp' with your "No, I didn't...and either did Platinum..." quote.

Okay, you seem to be suggesting that a 2' metal sword is just as stealthy as a 6" metal dagger? Physics would beg to differ buddy.

Also, I'm NOT asking for a pry bar/dagger combo in Thief 4...NOT AT ALL! I'm just pointing out that your Short Sword is the Ultimate Thief Tool argument doesn't hold up.......

Sigh, you know what, this isn't worth it....we BOTH want the short sword (complete with good melee fighting engine with parrying). I don't like how you argue your points (overly aggressive and flawed logic)....but this back and forth isn't going to get us anywhere. Let's just call ourselves 'pro sword' and move on. I won't comment on how you pursue your point from here on out.

After all, we are both Thief fans and only want a game that rocks!

[Asadar]

Calm down guys...

We all want that Thief 4 is a good game, so let's try to find constructive ideas rather than trying to give reason to ourself. Reviews are made to be listened to as we like them or not.

Why do not find a compromise between the two ? Sword and dagger are just weapons... should we buy them as the arrows? Or not, it is just my opinion.

[Nate]

***Great suggestion Asadar.

I've always loved the idea of having dagger/sword/blackjack as pieces of equipment that can be bought or left behind at the mission outfit screen....which gives us the choice of getting something more expensive, but at the cost of some/all of Garrett's melee weapons. This allows for an even more varied approach to missions.

[Platinumoxicity]

The idea behind the sword having a stealth decrease when drawn as seen in T1&T2 is that the blade is reflective metal and can glint in dim light conditions. The dagger Garrett has in TDS is pretty much matte grey and has a significantly smaller blade so it doesn't make him more visible when it is drawn. Constantine's "magical sword" had a matte black blade so it didn't make Garrett more visible when drawn. I think that makes perfect sense.

Originally Posted by Nate

Having a short sword would hinder stealth FAR more than a dagger.

So by applying that logic:

Proposal = Dagger must have a significantly smaller stealth decrease when having it with you, right?

Constant = The sword already has 0 stealth decrease when you have it with you, as demonstrated by all the Thief-games that have the sword. (1&2)

Result = Dagger must have a negative stealth decrease when you have it with you, so having the dagger instead of the sword would in fact make you less visible.

I don't think anyone would want to deliberately make the game easier with a cheat like that.


If on the other hand we would have the sword have a stealth decrease when drawn (like it is in Thief 1&2) but have the dagger not have a stealth decrease when drawn, (like it is in TDS) the merits of having the dagger instead of the sword would still be marginal because it is very rare event when you actually need to have a weapon drawn.

Originally Posted by Asadar

The sword is heavy and cumbersome, does not allow murder, or fairly noisy.

No, actually in Thief 1&2 if you are skilled at backstabbing with the sword it's as silent as blackjacking. In TDS on the other hand backstabbing with the dagger is as loud as burning someone alive. (I think it's because Garrett was never trained to use a dagger to kill people )

[DarknessFalls]

I like that the sword (and arrows, for that matter) has a light gem penalty (and cause blood, and slow the player down). It is a subtle way of swaying the player to use a blackjack instead. I was swayed. I don't want the dagger, as it's basically a sharp blackjack. Not wanted.

[Hypevosa]

Oh god someone brought up "the dagger is stealthier" argument again... will it never end.

Nate, I'll present a few points:

1. Remember that Garrett was trained in the art of stealth as a keeper, and trained to use the sword as well, there is no reason he wouldn't have been taught the proper methodology of how to handle a sheathed sword in shadow to avoid compromising stealth.

2. If that's not acceptable enough an explanation, remember for how long Garrett has been bringing that shortsword with him on missions. While I agree, to a new, untrained thief, a short sword might be very compromising compared to using a dagger when trying to be stealthy, after so many years of carrying one by his side, I'd assume it has become such a natural extension that he does anything he has to out of instinct with regards to tightening it to his person and making it not hit stuff.

I like to imagine that all during TDS whenever I would crouch down, his left hand would frob for the sword pommel that used to be there for so long to keep the sword from hitting the ground - much like how whenever I take off my watch from my right hand, I'll end up looking at my bare wrist for the time.

If anything using the dagger after so long may have compromised him slightly, since always feeling its weight there would affect his ability balance. Maybe that's why he kept falling off all those crossbeams in the ceilings in TDS XD

[Asadar]

Oh god someone brought up "the dagger is stealthier" argument again... will it never end.

Yep, sorry. It was just a suggestion, not an argument. I just try to imagine the two weapons as merchandise : breakable and optimizable, with advantages and disadvantages,etc.

But you are right: Indeed Garret was trained as a Keeper enough to kill quietly, the sword is also fine. But otherwise you can throat cut a guard to make less noise, but it leaves substantial traces of blood. With a sword as a dagger.

Therefore the real question I wondered is if we would still have the sword of Constantine in Thief 4 or something like...

[Nate]

Originally Posted by Platinumoxicity

If on the other hand we would have the sword have a stealth decrease when drawn (like it is in Thief 1&2) but have the dagger not have a stealth decrease when drawn, (like it is in TDS) the merits of having the dagger instead of the sword would still be marginal because it is very rare event when you actually need to have a weapon drawn.

Sure, that seems sensible!

Okay let me state the following for the RECORD (since I am a bit misunderstood here):

-I am not saying that Garrett isn't stealthy while carrying a short sword (his experience and training would minimize any stealth penalty)!
-Nor am I saying that I want Garrett's main melee weapon to be a dagger!
-Nor am I saying that I don't want the devs to include a good melee combat system!

*What I am saying is that based on real world physics, a dagger is stealthier than a sword (I don't think anybody will argue against this statement).....of course real world physics obviously aren't required to carry over into this game.

*I am also saying that I would love it if during the mission briefing, blackjack/dagger/sword are part of the equipment that you could buy (or leave behind and spend the $ on other equipment).

I am also saying that IF the devs decide to give a choice between the dagger and sword during the mission briefing, I would like the dagger to be weaker BUT have some sort of stealth advantage

These advantages could include some/all of the following:

-No stealth decrease when drawn (as per Platinumoxicity)
-Better chance at a silent kill back-stab over the sword (but still bloody)
-perhaps give the dagger an advantage in unsheathing/sheathing speed (the short sword is apparently well concealed/padded under Garrett's cloak = slower to unsheathe.

[Vae]

Originally Posted by Nate

Lol Vae...you take a quote from me praising Platinumoxicity and then attach it to one of his other points that you agree with but that I never commented on.....lame dude!

You made a general remark on his paragraph, and did not specify which point you were referring to. All of the points are related, and ultimately support the same argument. When one makes a general comment on a group of related points, it includes all of the points involved...so in effect, you did comment on it, whether you intended to or not. In the future I would advise you to be more specific, so as not to mislead those who read your post.

You should work for the National Enquirer! Misquoting people seems to be your strong suit.

I haven't misquoted anyone...ever. Where is the evidence of this? Are you hallucinating again? The irony here, is that you are the one who is doing a smear campaign.

Also, love how you try to force Plantnumoxicity into your 'camp' with your "No, I didn't...and either did Platinum..." quote.

I'm not forcing anybody into anything. In a previous argument, he happened to comment on the same point before I did, and successfully debunked the "short sword compromises stealth" argument.

The idea here is to discover what is true, rather than trying to win an argument just for the sake of winning. Your continued attempts to berate me are without merit.

Okay, you seem to be suggesting that a 2' metal sword is just as stealthy as a 6" metal dagger? Physics would beg to differ buddy.

Originally Posted by Hypevosa

Oh god someone brought up "the dagger is stealthier" argument again... will it never end.

Nate, I'll present a few points:

1. Remember that Garrett was trained in the art of stealth as a keeper, and trained to use the sword as well, there is no reason he wouldn't have been taught the proper methodology of how to handle a sheathed sword in shadow to avoid compromising stealth.

2. If that's not acceptable enough an explanation, remember for how long Garrett has been bringing that shortsword with him on missions. While I agree, to a new, untrained thief, a short sword might be very compromising compared to using a dagger when trying to be stealthy, after so many years of carrying one by his side, I'd assume it has become such a natural extension that he does anything he has to out of instinct with regards to tightening it to his person and making it not hit stuff.

I like to imagine that all during TDS whenever I would crouch down, his left hand would frob for the sword pommel that used to be there for so long to keep the sword from hitting the ground - much like how whenever I take off my watch from my right hand, I'll end up looking at my bare wrist for the time.

If anything using the dagger after so long may have compromised him slightly, since always feeling its weight there would affect his ability balance. Maybe that's why he kept falling off all those crossbeams in the ceilings in TDS XD

Was that okay with you...or do I have to repeat everything he said?

Also, I'm NOT asking for a pry bar/dagger combo in Thief 4...NOT AT ALL! I'm just pointing out that your Short Sword is the Ultimate Thief Tool argument doesn't hold up.......

I never said it was the "Ultimate Thief Tool"...that was never the argument. The sword is simply a better weapon/tool than the dagger, in the context of a THIEF game...that's all. Stop trying to distort the argument.

Sigh, you know what, this isn't worth it....we BOTH want the short sword (complete with good melee fighting engine with parrying).

Glad to hear it...

I don't like how you argue your points (overly aggressive and flawed logic)

I may have been persistent in proving my points, but where is this "flawed logic" you speak of? Up until now, you haven't been able to successfully refute anything I've been saying.

...this back and forth isn't going to get us anywhere. Let's just call ourselves 'pro sword' and move on. I won't comment on how you pursue your point from here on out.

After all, we are both Thief fans and only want a game that rocks!

Agreed...let us move forward with respect and dignity...and let us pray to the Builder for a game that is worthy to hold the name of THIEF...

[Asadar]

Ouch !

Sorry but personally I am lost. I speak English well enough to understand, but I confess that late hour I do not have the strength to read it all ... good night guys !

[Hypevosa]

Originally Posted by Vae

Was that okay with you...or do I have to repeat everything he said?

Was what ok with me? What would you have to repeat, and from who?

[Nate]

Originally Posted by Vae

You made a general remark on his paragraph, and did not specify which point you were referring to. All of the points are related, and ultimately support the same argument. When one makes a general comment on a group of related points, it includes all of the points involved...so in effect, you did comment on it, whether you intended to or not. In the future I would advise you to be more specific, so as not to mislead those who read your post.

TOUCHEE....haha, I just read the post of Platinumoxicity, and while I praised him for one part of his commment, you are correct that his point is more a group of related points = my bad!

As for the rest of your comments, please refer to the post I made just prior to yours....it clearly shows where I am coming from.

LOL Hypevosa, I know it is a bit unclear (LOL) but he is actually using your quote to explain how Garrett is adept with the sword and not with the dagger.....Vae isn't criticizing you or asking anything from you.

[Hypevosa]

Ah, gottcha.

I really wish we could all just sit around and talk sometimes - things written in forums get rather confusing sometimes when you don't know who's talking about/to whom, or whether someone was sarcastic or truthful... etc

[Platinumoxicity]

Originally Posted by Hypevosa

I really wish we could all just sit around and talk sometimes - things written in forums get rather confusing sometimes when you don't know who's talking about/to whom, or whether someone was sarcastic or truthful... etc

I don't. I really don't like the real world. I stammer there. That's why I prefer talking online and I tend to use smilies a lot to express the way I would say things if I said them face-to-face. Sarcasm is something that's really hard to notice online if they don't include to indicate sarcasm. Because the Rolleyes -smilie gives the sentence the way of speech one uses with sarcasm.

[Vae]

Originally Posted by Nate

*What I am saying is that based on real world physics, a dagger is stealthier than a sword (I don't think anybody will argue against this statement).....of course real world physics obviously aren't required to carry over into this game.

Yeah, the dagger is smaller...but as far as gameplay is concerned, it doesn't really matter.

*I am also saying that I would love it if during the mission briefing, blackjack/dagger/sword are part of the equipment that you could buy (or leave behind and spend the $ on other equipment).

The problem here, is that this doesn't stand to reason. Garrett wouldn't need to buy reusable tools like the sword/blackjack/dagger/bow over and over again...he would only need to purchase consumable tools, like flash bombs, arrows, etc.

(Dagger advantage) - No stealth decrease when drawn (as per Platinumoxicity)

This does not provide any real advantage, because the only time Garrett needs to draw a blade is when he is about to backstab (which he is not seen anyway), and when facing off with an opponent (which he is clearly seen), negating any advantage.

(Dagger advantage) - Better chance at a silent kill back-stab over the sword (but still bloody)

Using the blackjack to silently neutralize an opponent negates any advantage here. Plus, the whole point for gameplay is that when using any blade to backstab, it should create some noise. That is why we have a blade and a blackjack.

(Dagger advantage) - perhaps give the dagger an advantage in unsheathing/sheathing speed (the short sword is apparently well concealed/padded under Garrett's cloak = slower to unsheathe.

Any slight drawing speed advantage that the dagger would have over the sword, would be of marginal consequence in a THIEF game. This is because THIEF is not a combat game, where the time of drawing a weapon would affect the outcome of a conflict. The half-second difference of drawing time between the sword and the dagger is pretty much irrelevant.

Again, I just don't see any real need or advantage for the dagger in a game like THIEF. I have nothing personal against the dagger, it just hasn't any worthwhile use with the sword in the game.

[Nate]

All fair points......just kind of wanted to have more choice in equipment selection and advantages/disadvantages resulting there from. Oh well......

[Hypevosa]

Originally Posted by Platinumoxicity

I don't. I really don't like the real world. I stammer there. That's why I prefer talking online and I tend to use smilies a lot to express the way I would say things if I said them face-to-face. Sarcasm is something that's really hard to notice online if they don't include to indicate sarcasm. Because the Rolleyes -smilie gives the sentence the way of speech one uses with sarcasm.

yeah, with how heated our arguments get I can see it coming to blows sometimes - or darn close.

[Hypevosa]

Don't forget those explodey head stress things for lolz and to let off steam.

[Tryst]

Or you could just...