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#26
05-11-2009, 08:25 AM
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hah yeah, catfall potions could be phun, TUT ftw! 
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#27
05-11-2009, 08:31 AM
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Also, someone mentioned coins as a form of distraction to the NPC's, in Thievery we had small rocks implemented, altho there were some sound glitches, with rocks echoing too much as far as i remember, they were giving guards a small damage or they could have been used as a said distraction. Of course best would be to put them in reasonable amounts on some maps, not lying on every corner :P
@ urukus - i didn't mean a catfall, cus there was a slow fall potion in Thief alredy, I meant only a footstep silencer, but then again this could be combined into one potion, fairly priced as well, so that it wouldn't be abused.
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#28
05-11-2009, 08:42 AM
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#29
05-11-2009, 09:20 AM
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The simple weapons and items in Thief/Thief II were good. From Thief DS, I would say the climbing gloves need to be done away with the the rope arrow reintroduced. Also, it was nice to have inventory carry over from mission to mission, but that led to having a large horde of stuff, and definetly took the difficulty out of later mission - that should also be fixed, if not done away with.
Novel ideas are good, but simplicity prevents problems from arising.
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#30
05-11-2009, 09:31 AM
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However, Ghost players (like myself) would end up not using much (IF ANY) equipment during missions = I had a ton of $ by the games end and nothing to spend it on. My suggestion for the devs to get around that is the following: Standard equipment/weapons/armor can be purchased at stores at standard pricing. This will allow players who use a lot of equipment to get through successive missions. However, Superior quality (or special or magical) equipment/weapons/armor should also be made available to players at INSANELY high prices. This will allow Ghost players to have a use for their hard thieved $. When I say INSANELY high prices, I mean that even really good Ghost players who save their pennies would only be able to buy a couple of these items before the game is done. Some of these uber items could include magic armor/weapons, better stealth boots/outfit, lighter/smaller/quicker bow, better flash-bangs, magical rings, and so on.... Of course, these superior items should only be slightly better than the standard equipment. I want to give frugal players something to spend their $ on, not unbalance the game.
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#32
05-11-2009, 09:44 AM
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Hmmm, I am surprised I didn't get more input on the suggestion to incorporate a weight/encumbrance system into Thief 4.
What do you guys think about Garrett suffering some physical/stealth penalties from carrying a full equipment load out. I mean, when Garrett is fully loaded up (bow, ~40 heavy arrows, healing potions, holy water, flash-bangs, dagger/short sword, black jack, tools) he must have an extra 60-80 lbs on him (not including the loot he carries). Players could choose to go into missions with less equipment (but no penalties) or carrying 'everything but the kitchen sink' (but with physical/stealth penalties). It would mix up how players could approach missions.
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#33
05-11-2009, 10:05 AM
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Yeah, I'm into that. I already said so though, didn't I?
I'd like to see a greater restriction on the amount of gear you can take with you. Make it realistic. In TDS you could carry far too much stuff. And make the holy water arrows use up water arrows again.
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#34
05-11-2009, 10:14 AM
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Yeah, a holy vial should make your water arrows holy for a period of time like they used to do....how does that work? Does Garrett dip his water arrows in the vial before shooting them off?
I still like the idea of being able to toss around the holy water vials as well though. Hmmm, maybe holy water arrows could do much less damage than a full vial of holy water?
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#37
05-11-2009, 10:53 AM
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what about to add a bag/rucksack + weight system?
You know, i always wondered of Garrets powers, how can he run/jump/mantle with large amount of loot? Also Garret should make more noise when he has loot and unable to run with that heavy bag, if guards see you, you have pretty low chance to escape. So, that could make sense, to drop your bag full with loot somewhere in sewers, then continue at objectives, when everything is done, go back to pick up bag and end mission.
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#38
05-11-2009, 11:51 AM
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The blackjack is iconic for me, it has to be there! Rope arrows are a must as well. One thing I'd like removed please, since it was in Thief III, is the automated blackjacking, it was nowhere near as smooth as in the Dark Engine games.
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#39
05-11-2009, 11:56 AM
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I say bring back the sword. But make it smaller. A short sword.
I was just thinking maybe ... some sort of tranquilizer dart weapon? Yes? No? Maybe?
__________________
Definition: 'Love' is making a shot to the knees of a target 120 kilometers away using an Aratech sniper rifle with a tri-light scope.
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#40
05-11-2009, 12:02 PM
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A blowgun with poison-tipped darts? 0_o
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#41
05-11-2009, 12:58 PM
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#42
05-11-2009, 01:06 PM
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I like that idea. I can see that maybe both of your ideas could be incorporated by making more expensive inventory weigh less than regular priced items. I'd rather stay away from adding in magical items, or items that make the game easier for penny pinchers - it's not like they'd need them anyway. I'm also a bit hesitant to make the inventory very extensive. Scrolling through items is a bit like looking through your pockets, but scolling through a lot of them is time consuming. A large inventory would probably lead to implementing an item select screen, which could be done well (perhaps by makng a screen that looked like Garrett looking into his cloak pockets, ala Alone in the Dark) but would still need work. I suppose quick keys is also a good solution. The weight/incumberance system could be a solution to having overabundant supplies, but at the same time, some of the most annoying results of implementing it is having to run back and forth to get an item you left behind. Deus Ex and System Shock had that problem. Not having the required chemicals to complete my research or wishing I had the sniper rifle instead of the assault rifle drove me crazy.
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#43
05-11-2009, 01:12 PM
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I'd actually like to see a "combine items in your inventory midmission" type system. Like you'd see in a Resident Evil game.
Instead of buying a bunch of water arrows, you have your arrows, and your water crystals, and you make them during the mission. And to make an Ice arrow would take some kind of third ingredient that makes the arrow more powerful. Give the player a variety of explosive charges: Blast, Flash, Noisemaker, Gas...and then give them Bomb cases and Mine cases and have the player put whatever charge he wants into whichever case he wants. I wouldn't want the apothecary aspect of equipment to be shortchanged either. One of the things I really liked from DS was the flasks. Holy Water and Oil were kinda neat, and much better than the original implimentation of Holy Water. Add in Acid flasks, bring back all the old potions: healing, speed, floating, waterbreathing, invisibility, and if the main character isn't Garret, a darkvision potion as well. I certainly don't mind the idea of a weight limit on the character, as long as there isn't a space limit. I always hate inventory systems where your carrying space is sliced up into some kind of grid and you have to try and cram things into it.
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#44
05-11-2009, 01:14 PM
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You need to bring back rope arrows 100% absolutely.
Climbing gloves seemed cheap somehow, probably because they were a replacement for the rope arrows which were so much more fun and cooler. To be honest Thief 2 had all the weapons and gadgets a Thief would need, I'd probably add a powerful singleshot short range crossbow that fires a heavy bolt and can take out a target in 1 hit, but has only 1 shot and cannot be reloaded while in a mission. It would serve as a panic button to allow you to distrub a guard by accident and then whip it out and get a more or less guranteed kill swiftly. Maybe it's loaded in a workshop with a really powerful machine to pull the bow back, so can only be used once. Maybe a smoke bomb thing in addition to the flash bangs, let off smoke screen that lasts for a few seconds and disorientates guards for a few seconds, allowing you to fire a rope arrow into the ceiling and escape across the rafters 
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#45
05-11-2009, 01:15 PM
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The less killing stuff the better. Remember the old "you are a thief - not a murderer", I imagine a similar logic also applies to the true keeper. But yes, rope/vine arrows, climbing gear and stealth/soft shoes! (moving fast quietly is a skill that garret should manage on most hard surfaces by now, even without moss arrows- which are great non-lethal weapons btw
 )
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#46
05-11-2009, 01:53 PM
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Rope Arrows! Especially with high-physics swinging capability. Endless possibilities!
Applying Holy Water, Acids, Anesthesia, and Burning Oils to daggers and arrows would be awesome. And for pete's sake, give us a damp cloth or something we can put out torches with so we don't have to waste a water arrow! I feel ridiculous shooting a torch from 2 feet away with a bow and arrow. The mechanical eye also needs to return, with some limited zoom and night vision capabilities. And have it take screenshots while you're at it for puzzle and blackmail purposes.
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#47
05-11-2009, 02:11 PM
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Everything from past entries. But add weight/space limitation to how much you can carry like in Oblivion.
There is big debate over whether Garrett should have his longsword or dagger. I am going to vote for longsword for several reason. In TDP and T2 the longsword was only used in confrontation where you were caught and literally had to fight or die. But even then Garrett isn't a fighter and even with the longsword you couldn't go Rambo and kill everyone. The dagger on the only hand seemed out of place for me at least. The dagger is extremely shortranged and confrontations were extremely dangerous so it was much smarter in Thief S to run and hide then fight. Also, the dagger's other main purpose was to stab someone in the back of the neck and kill them instead of using the blackjack and knocking them out. I found that very out of place as Garrett is a THIEF not a cold-blooded killer. So I'm going to have to vote for the longsword.Also, I don't think there needs to be any more weapons such as crossbows or blow-darts and whatever everyone else is suggesting. Those are completely unnecessary and take away from the stealth feeling of the game if you can just kill everyone. What I'd like to see if the inclusion of all the different types of arrows, flash-bangs, maybe a smoke grenade but most of all I'd like to see more interactive environments and creative weapons. Like in thief: DS how you could throw an oil slick on the floor then light it up. That was awesome! On lockpicking, both Fallout 3 and Oblivion have excellent lockpicking systems which should be looked at. Also, more pickpocketing!
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#48
05-11-2009, 02:20 PM
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There's an awful lot of people trying to dictate how other people play Thief games in this thread.
No killing for harder difficulties is great and all but trying to force everyone to play that way is a recipe for failure. You've ALWAYS been able to go through the game killing every guard if you were so inclined, and nothing in the storyline actually suggests that Garrett feels one way or the other on the subject. So please stop projecting your own fanfiction ideas of what Thief is into the game.
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#49
05-11-2009, 02:24 PM
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I'm a big advocate of the original sword & swordfighting system. George Silver explains it best in Paradoxes of Defence that a shorter backsword affords you excellent protection; whereas the dagger and rapier, being purely offensive weapons, offer none. Thus, a shortsword is the natural choice for someone like Garrett, who needs it as protection for when things go horribly wrong - its primary purpose is not taking life, but saving his own! In contrast, the dagger is quite useless.
I love how it directly translates to good gameplay in T/T2: It's way more fun to parry and block sword blows until seizing a window of escape than reload your way out of a bad situation!
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#50
05-11-2009, 02:31 PM
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I'd prefer a simple multipurpose knife (a nasty, razor-edged knife, not a prissy dagger like the one in T3!) to a sword. It could even replace the blackjack—use the butt/pommel to knock 'em out—but the blackjack is iconic so I guess that would do more bad than good. It's simply impractical to haul around a two-and-a-half-foot sword while you're tiptoeing through the tight, craggy corridors of a medieval manse.
I think a good solution would be to give Garrett a long knife, sixteen inches or so. It'd be capable of parrying sword thrusts and cuts but would present the player a nice challenge when it comes to getting in close and finishing off the enemy, and defending against more than one or two enemies would be next to impossible. After all, unless you're goofing around you probably shouldn't be in that situation anyway: Garrett is a thief, not a tank. I find that small-scale skirmishes with talented, heavily armed opponents are far more intense than five- or six-man melees, especially in games like this. Another possibility would be for Garrett to utilize makeshift weapons when a knife won't do: a chair, a butcher's cleaver, a woodsman's ax, a big vase, a dead guard's sword, a torch, etc. The variable weapons could make for some great gaming dilemmas. For example, a torch would make for a great death tool, but you don't want the guard to catch fire and run away flaming down the hallway, alerting the whole damn castle. Et cetera. Then again, that might be too much work for a game that likely shouldn't be focusing on the intricacies of combat. Lastly, I'd love to see a small crossbow like the one below replace the bow, or at least, as the bow also seems to be an iconic Thief item, serve as an alternative. It's not ridiculously big, fits right into your hand; and more importantly, it's just too damn sexy!  Hott! Quote:
One huge thing the sword does have going for it is the symbolism. I remember reading on the TTLG Thief forum that the sword is an honorable weapon, a good match for lovable rogues like Garrett or Robin Hood. Noble devs, I recommend you consider this along with debates over practicality. I also agree with ironpants that a sturdy blade makes for great getaway moments.
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Dante Last edited by Crypto; 05-11-2009 at 02:42 PM.
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