"THE ARMOURY: Tools of Your Trade" - Weapons/Equipment Discussion Thread

[Nate]

Well the difference would be that a difficulty setting limiting arrow/equipment carry capacity would bring a bit more 'realism/immersion' for those who want that, while also appealing to Challenge Whores.

Your stat tracking idea would simply appeal to Challenge Whores.

There is a difference.

[Hypevosa]

Well then why don't they just get a quiver and see how many arrows it can hold :P, although I do think Garrett would have 2 quivers at least, to keep things separate... otherwise he wouldn't have any idea if he was pulling one kind of arrow or the other.

Get a belt and see how many potions you could really fit on it (and change the invisibility and slo-fall potions to normal looking bottles...)

(where does Garrett keep the flashbombs and the mines? (I know one flashbomb's always up his sleeves ;D) For flashbombs and mines, I'd like to assume he has pockets sewn into his armor... so let's say he has maybe 8 pockets, 3 on his front and 2 on either side?(actually 6 would be better to not hinder his body rotations, get rid of the ones around his lower ribs) I don't think the pants would have one since he'd run the risk of setting something off do to his frequent and sometimes impactful leg movements.

Sword goes at his hilt, dagger in his boot (unless we want to make him go all rambo style and have it strapped to his chest?)

You can actually figure out all these things if you really want too. I'm sure of all their development money they could bother to get a Garrett getup together and actually try to figure it all out... plus, you know some hardcore fan would buy it off them after they were done with it for like 2X what they paid for it XD.

EDIT: Oh, and the loot bag is a rift in time space that he picked up in the maw of chaos, that just floats about 2 inches to the left of his belt...

[Flashart]

I wanted a "leaner" inventory but I figured some people would want more stuff so I went for a compromise. In TDS last night going into the lair I had 80 arrows, so I just halved the number.
20 Broadheads and a mix of others.
So 2 quivers, a belt of flashbombs, couple of pouches for potions/mines and a scabard, maybe a boot dagger (if you want both), all that sounds reasonable. Maybe even some room for something extra. (Caltrops/marbles? Bolus, Boomerang, Blowpipe, who knows?)
(Not that it matters, but I imagine flashbombs to be the size of poolballs not the large type as portrayed, potions to be test tube size, and a mine to be cigarette packet size)

[Hypevosa]

Yeah, flashbombs do seem to large to be at all wieldy, they probably need to be closer to the size of a pool ball as you said. I definitely wouldn't mind having a little bag to my right full of caltrops... nothing says do not pursue like a couple spikes in your foot ;D.

[Ice1019]

Maybe a selection of different loadouts like in Splinter Cell: A really stealth-intensive loadout with lots of water arrows and invisibility potions (but not too many of the latter) to emphasize not interacting with the enemies at all, versus a more gadget intensive loadout with tools like flashbombs, gas arrows and noisemakers, for a player who uses lots of distractions and incapacitations to clear a route through his environment.

[Acorn]

Originally Posted by Platinumoxicity

Yes, the player is starting out. But Garrett, not the player, has been using a sword for years, he doesn't suddenly "unlock special moves" as the game progresses, as was being suggested. I believe you misread my quoting and it reminded you of the lockpicking somehow. The lockpicking was indeed making the player practice opening the locks, not Garrett.

And who do you think the player is playing as?
He becomes more proficient at lockpicking. The next level of skills is unlocked later in the game having practiced and applied the use of the first skills.
I'm saying this could happen in game with the other skills too.

You could make the blanket statement of "But Garrett, not the player, has been using a [any of his equipment] for years". Hes been lockpicking for years too. Its all the same. All his equipment. All his skills. Lockpicking is a skill. Sword fighting is a skill. The player would be practicing both. This is as clear as I can make it.

[Platinumoxicity]

Originally Posted by Acorn

And who do you think the player is playing as?
He becomes more proficient at lockpicking. The next level of skills is unlocked later in the game having practiced and applied the use of the first skills.
I'm saying this could happen in game with the other skills too.

You could make the blanket statement of "But Garrett, not the player, has been using a [any of his equipment] for years". Hes been lockpicking for years too. Its all the same. All his equipment. All his skills. Lockpicking is a skill. Sword fighting is a skill. The player would be practicing both. This is as clear as I can make it.

I think you got it now. You see? Including unlockable special abilities just doesn't have any place in a Thief-game. Everything that you "unlock" to do, is either through a special tool or through you learning to play better. All the skills that Garrett has, he has from the beginning. The player can start practicing everything from the very start.

[Flashart]

Yeah, Garrett should have the same abilities/tools at the start of the game that he does at the end,
however there might be an occasion where a specific "tool/ equipment" might be used in one "special" or "one-off mission". This might make to introduce a different kind of mission (perhaps a recording device, Garrett has to eavesdrop behind windows, or perhaps some kind of "detector" to locate something)

[Platinumoxicity]

Originally Posted by Flashart

Yeah, Garrett should have the same abilities/tools at the start of the game that he does at the end,
however there might be an occasion where a specific "tool/ equipment" might be used in one "special" or "one-off mission". This might make to introduce a different kind of mission (perhaps a recording device, Garrett has to eavesdrop behind windows, or perhaps some kind of "detector" to locate something)

I was thinking about that too. This is a stupid idea but... Remember those diving suits that the mechanists used? Garrett could use one of those to walk around in the bottom of the ocean, but it would make him slow and his vision narrowed. And you could get rid of the suit once you get to your destination. Hiding in the shadows in the bottom of the murky waters. Creepy soundscapes. Craymen could be walking around in the bottom too, guarding some ancient lair of theirs.

[Gillie]

I liked the sword rope and vine arrows Garretts usual equipment.
The lock picks in the first games were the best
There has been some really great new special weapons in the fan missions though which are fun to use.

[ZaSpecialist]

Hmm make Garrett a cyborg ^^

[TheEye]

garret does not need new weapons, just leave him alone

[Gillie]

Originally Posted by VIKTORIA

Not T4 exactly, but armour-related and I thought interesting to share.

I went to London last week and visited the Tower and the "Royal Armouries" exhibition, which was fantastic, to say the least. I was particularly impressed by "The Horned Helmet". It was presented by the Holy Roman Emperor Maximilian I to Henry VIII when he was 23 years of age, and made in Innsbruck between 1511-1514 by the master armourer Konrad Seusenhofer. It is all that is left of a full suit of body armour that was decorated with etching and silver-gilt. Henry must have been impressed by this magnificent gift as within a year he firmly established his own armour workshop staffed by German craftsmen. This became known as the Greenwich Workshop producing armour for the King and later, the Elizabethan court.

Suits of armour were designed to strike fear in the hearts of the enemy, and as soon as I set eyes on this helmet, I instantly got the spooks! The wearer can see through the eyes, breathe through the nostrils and speak through the mouth. I just find it a fascinating and surreal piece for its period, and wanted to share with you, just for fun.

Here are two images:





Apparently, there is ongoing debate that the horns were possibly added as an afterthought as they somehow interfere with a channel for other decoration. After studying the horns myself, I can't say I agree with this suggestion. Some scholars think that it’s unlikely that such a strange piece would have been presented to a king - but it may have been an 'inside joke'. It is recorded in writings that Will Somers, a jester to the court of Henry VIII, sported a suit of armor with spectacles attached to the metal helmet with rivets - though there is no specific connection between Somers and the helmet. It is also considered that the mask sports a Hasburg nose. All mere speculation, but interesting nevertheless. There are eyebrows etched in and wrinkles and even beard stubble.

It is a very mysterious and wonderful piece. If you get the chance to see it in the flesh, I recommend that you do so.

Oh I missed this. I would love to see it. Looks spectacular. I have not seen the exhibtion.
Henry V111 was a huge man for his day, there are two suits of armour one much bigger than the other as he got so big with age, he was massive. Unusual for his day. I would love to visit The Tower again and Hampton Court a place I have been to many times. Anything Medieval especially Tudor I love. Those are fantastic they do look spooky.
That is why I love the feel of Thief so very much.

[Viktoria]

You're welcome.
Yes, definitely worth visiting the Royal Armouries exhibition... all of the items on display are breathtaking, but this mask is the most surreal I have ever seen (for its age).

[esme]

looks like my old french teacher

his horns were smaller tho

[Zavier41]

I love the idea of having/using a coin to distract a guard, to lure him away/towards you as you see fit. Some may argue “Why not just use a piece of random garbage?” It could be that a piece of garbage doesn't always gain the attention of the person. Or as someone pointed out, a nobleman would simply demand that his servant clean it up for him (though that could be the reaction your going for, club the master while the servant is away and drag his body off, so that the servant doesn't run throughout the mansion screaming bloody murder if he sees you blackjack/arrow him). Besides, who wouldn't pass up the chance to pick up a quarter (using modern equivalent for comparisons sake)?

Another thing that I would love, is if you place an unconscious body in a bed and a guard sees them, they don't automatically think and declare, "This persons dead!" rather, "Oops, barged in on someone sleeping. Maybe that noise I heard was just him snoring."

I also love the Caltrops and Marbles for hazards that you can create. I also want to see the return of the sword, not a long sword or anything heavy, but a short sword, something perfect for defense, and usable for offence, nowhere near the offensive skill level of a guard, however. I also want my rope arrows and Burriks back! And who’s to say that there can't be any new types/better type of gear? Some time has passed between Thief 3 and 4, so wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that technology has advanced some? Not a lot, but maybe a better mechanical eye (less grainy, see in the dark maybe) or a smaller bow, smaller (and less noisy when placed) mines and the like.

I like the statement someone made earlier that what the developers need to do is perfect the thieving tools that have been invented first, before adding on new gadgets and widgets to confuse the player. What would be better is a game with familiar tools, with perfected affects and, if possible, a wider range of use like the idea someone had of using a moss arrow to create a patch of moss on a stone ceiling so that you can attach a vine arrow to it. I would also like to see the inclusion of a wet rag for putting out torches, because I too feel silly using an arrow to put out a light that is a few feet away.

The inclusion of a smarter AI would also be a bonus, particularly when it comes to guards pursuing you when you scurry up a rope, a wall, or if you are just out of reach. Maybe they can follow you up the rope and you can cut it out from underneath them. Sure you lose the rope arrow, but isn't that better than having to face the guard that followed you up? And if a guard spies you above them, or out of reach, maybe they run and fetch an archer to pepper you with arrows, assuming you are still there.

I just wanted to put my two cents worth out there for everyone to hear.
-Z41-
P.S.
Victoria, that is a freakishly awesome helmet.

[matdmcc2]

Originally Posted by DarthEnder

There's an awful lot of people trying to dictate how other people play Thief games in this thread.

No killing for harder difficulties is great and all but trying to force everyone to play that way is a recipe for failure.

You've ALWAYS been able to go through the game killing every guard if you were so inclined, and nothing in the storyline actually suggests that Garrett feels one way or the other on the subject.

Here here! Moreover, I'd add that leaving the option open to be a cold-blooded assassin/thief leaves room for replayability. First time through you are stealthy and leave banannas in their ears, the next run you leave a broadhead in 'em. Furthermore, Id also add the possibility with a weapon loadout where you could pick dagger, rapier, broadsword, depending on your choice. You could also choose which kind of bow you want, longbow, crossbow, or shortbow (like a mongolian variety). Bottom line: leave options open for the players fighting/playing style. Also, someone mentioned about extinguishing torches at close range, i agree. Perhaps the player could remove the torch and rub it into the ground, provided its not carpeted! Also, Id like to see Garret expand his apothecarian skills. Perhaps have a small lab or something in his loft. Id like to see his apt be kind of a base of operation, where you can load out from there, store items, etc. Also I enjoy the idea of an encumberance system, as well as the idea of upgradable arrows as another suggested. Upgrades add to replayability. Lastly, after the main story is over, the game should not be over: more side missions, factions to work for, etc. Make the game last as long as possible before i have to start alll over. Oh and shipping and receiving was teh best level ever! I love looting all of those storage bldgs, i want another lvl like that! And the armor is killer Viktoria! Yalls should check out the Teutonic Knight armor, also killer!

[PlumsieTaker]

Originally Posted by matdmcc2

Also, Id like to see Garret expand his apothecarian skills. Perhaps have a small lab or something in his loft. Id like to see his apt be kind of a base of operation, where you can load out from there, store items, etc. Also I enjoy the idea of an encumberance system, as well as the idea of upgradable arrows as another suggested. Upgrades add to replayability.

Should we add experience points too? How about an enchanting skill to give your weapons bonus fire damage? Oh! I know, maybe we can have demon gates pop up all over The City too..

Keep Thief as Thief, not turn it into TOS:Oblivion. In fact, I found TMA had a tiny bit too much gear. Give me a blackjack, rope arrows and water arrows, and I could still replay the game for years to come.

[matdmcc2]

Originally Posted by PlumsieTaker

Should we add experience points too? How about an enchanting skill to give your weapons bonus fire damage? Oh! I know, maybe we can have demon gates pop up all over The City too..

Keep Thief as Thief, not turn it into TOS:Oblivion. In fact, I found TMA had a tiny bit too much gear. Give me a blackjack, rope arrows and water arrows, and I could still replay the game for years to come.

Perhaps it was the two glasses of rum, but I chuckled for a good long while after reading that. And indeed, perhaps you are right sir (im presuming you are a sir), althought i will go on the record as sayin that I abhored the oblivion gates. I guess all im asking this new game to have is a little more expanded in the areas of replayability and add depth not just to the story but to the mechanics of the actual game play. But you are right thief was always cool because it was a very singular game, perhaps my wishes are taffer-worthy. Although, i still think the idea of a an optional weapon loadout area is nifty and would allow for further the player to add his/her own way to play Garret. It is true that Garret's character comes through in the game, but instead of the game making all the decisions on what Garret thinks, i think the player should have choices as to Garret's character. Maybe he is sick and effing tired of corrupt Sherrifs or cult leaders and is willing to off one or the other and make a profit <shrug> Oh and by the way, in Oblivion you can make custom classes and mine was the "Garret" class, who was somewhere between a thief, sorcerer, and assassin.

[PlumsieTaker]

Originally Posted by matdmcc2

Perhaps it was the two glasses of rum, but I chuckled for a good long while after reading that. And indeed, perhaps you are right sir (im presuming you are a sir), althought i will go on the record as sayin that I abhored the oblivion gates. I guess all im asking this new game to have is a little more expanded in the areas of replayability and add depth not just to the story but to the mechanics of the actual game play. But you are right thief was always cool because it was a very singular game, perhaps my wishes are taffer-worthy. Although, i still think the idea of a an optional weapon loadout area is nifty and would allow for further the player to add his/her own way to play Garret. It is true that Garret's character comes through in the game, but instead of the game making all the decisions on what Garret thinks, i think the player should have choices as to Garret's character. Maybe he is sick and effing tired of corrupt Sherrifs or cult leaders and is willing to off one or the other and make a profit <shrug> Oh and by the way, in Oblivion you can make custom classes and mine was the "Garret" class, who was somewhere between a thief, sorcerer, and assassin.

No no, everyone's entitled to their own wishes mate. It's just sometimes we get too carried away and our ideas drive away from the elements and gameplay that make Thief what it is. (I myself have done it plenty of times). You look at some of the posts regarding realism for Thief, and some ideas are the complete opposite of the universal freedom and unrestricted movement that made the original two titles so good, but you know, each to their own.

(Also I'm not saying your ideas are bad, a little few of them just go against my taffer's opinion about what Thief is all about. Keep them ideas coming though, it requires all different ingredients to make a soup.)

[Goldfish King]

1. If Garret had a a double ended rope arrow (a rope with two arrows), he could shoot one arrow into wood near him, and the other in wood far away. He could then use the rope as a zipline.
2. A remote activated smoke grenade or just a simple smoke bomb.
3. Maybe a laser pointer to safely blind guards from a distance? Or is that too techy for Thief?
4. If you saw a guard you wanted killed, but lacked the means to kill it, I think a dog whistle would be useful. It might attract a dangerous creature to the area, who would come along and attack the guard for you.
5. I think you should be able to pick up rocks and chuck them at the back of guards' heads to knock them out. Using things in the environment would be awesome.

[matdmcc2]

Ok, so I was lying awake last night thinking about how I accidently threw away Thief TDS a year ago (I know im sure many are thinking that was a stroke of good luck!) From reading all of these forums I had just a hankering to play it again...Anyway, so back to my insomnia I suppose we could all agree that thief has a sort of medieval setting, obviously not historical, but somehow set in a quasi middle age sort of thing. Ok, now being a history major I asked myself, what kind of weapons were around during this time? Then it occurred to me: emergence of black powder. Im NOT saying that Garret should run around with a wee little flintlock or matchlock with an anachronistic silencer, cause as many of us know they were loud, smelly, and all around not stealthy. I dont know perhaps its just a midnight reverie but id like to see some guards with arqbusiers or something. These weapons were meant to instill fear on the medieval battlefield, why not in the thief universe? Now, i know many of you are thinking: What about those robots in T2 that shot exploding canon balls and the mines, etc etc. I know i know, im just putting the idea of more refined canonry and smoothbore musketry....oh and anyone seen Robbin Hood Men in Tights? remember the hand held crossbow sort of thing the one assassin used? Why not have Garret use something similar? And how about some mounted opponents? On a somewhat less fantastical note, what about Garret using a rag with a chloroform type chemical on it? I know i know, Hitman-esque. Just a thought. Feel free to rip me a new one for how rediculous any or all of it sounds; its all good fun!

[Hypevosa]

well thief is called Steam Punk... and the cannons in TMA have already proven the existence of black powder or some relative there of. The question, is do we want this introduced into the thief world? I'm not sure... while I love the bows and arrows, and watching the projectiles wizz past as I dodge them deftly - I can also see having riflemen... but instead of being able to dodge the projectiles, they'd just have their random miss factor for distances calculated in (god knows they were inaccurate). This would take away player skill from dodging enemy fire and put it to a roll of the dice... something I wouldn't like... But I can also see that it would make it more challenging for those of us who already can dodge all the arrows volleyed at us from more than 10 feet away.

I'm also kinda wishing that maybe for T4 we can be awesome, and right click arrows in mid air to catch em... yes, people can catch arrows - it's not super human - go watch youtube. Plus, even if we personally couldn't do it, I'd think Garrett's super thief hands could.

So overall I'd say no, just because I want to do the right click and catch arrows thing but if there's no way in hell they'll do that, then I'm really ambivalent about the introduction of firearms... the dark age has black powder anyone?

[Flashart]

There's barrels of explosive lying around in TMA, but I wouldn't want muskets or flintlocks in T4.
However, cannons on battlements and ships etc, could be used as "static" weaponry, or signal/ distractions.

I think the reason that Garrett never "kills" the end Boss is that Dev's realized that if you hadn't killed anyone throughout the game it would be unfair to "make" Garrett do it. There's nothing to suggest he "wouldn't" kill.

[Ikana]

As others have said, I agree with T1/T2 gear, I am in outspoken fear of a prince of Persia Thief game.. But I agree with whomever said it, Swinging from the rope arrows would be nice.. Make arrows retrievable... I disagree with anyone who claims any type of torture tool, or interrogation thing (unless its a one time thing, I'M TALKING ABOUT YOU ASSASSINS CREED) Adding remote eyes again would be awesome, If Garrett is used, make his mechanical eye able to see in the dark, better yet.. I'm gonna think on that decision.. Making a distraction other than noise arrows would be nice. Like the ability to grab nearby object and throw them, and make the NPS react to the noise and search the area, and then the area which the Item originally came from.. Half life was brilliant with it's throwing and dropping physics.. Please make sure the physics don't suck horrible ass.. T3s weird ragdoll physics were so unnerving..


Lol I just remembered that you could do that in the thief series.. Make rope arrows tether able.. AND DON'T MAKE ANCHOR SPOTS.. You know.. specific areas where you could tie.. make it just. anywhere.. Stair railings, trees etc.. and then be able to climb across the rope, as well as up and down a vertical one..


I dunno.. The game was balanced in T2.. add to much, and you make unnecessary clutter, to few, and it feels boring..