The DX3 Design team on regenerating health and...some...other stuff.

[Jerion]

Note: I decided to not mention a few other things behind their reasoning simply because without people being there and seeing firsthand some of Antoine's antics it's really difficult to express them. I think I've covered most of what was talked about though.


In Deus Ex, the player is offered four basic approaches to any given situation: Talk your way in, Hack your way in, Sneak in, or Shoot your way in. Everybody who played the game used some combination of these approaches- and Deus Ex offered the player the freedom to choose whatever combination they desired. This choice is being carried forward to DX3. The player again has the four approaches to every situation- Talk your way in, Hack your way in, Sneak in, or Shoot your way in. The choice of being able to use any combination of these approaches is very much there. Deus Ex 3 is a shooter, yes, but just as much as it is also a stealth game, and just as much as it is an RPG.

Various mechanics of gameplay fall under the different approaches, and the health mechanic is no different. Player health by definition is a variable in combat; the player takes damage from enemies and the player’s health goes down. Now in game design there are two ways to deal with this: Medkits, and Regenerating health. Medkits are a resource that the player can pick up and use to replenish health. Generally, to ensure that a player can replenish health lost to injury, designers ensure that enough medkits are in a given map that for as much health as the player can lose, as much health can be gained back. Unfortunately, this also means that all too often, maps are saturated with medkits. A very common thing for designers to do then is to make it possible to carry, to stockpile, lots of these medkits in the player’s inventory with little to no cost to the player. Deus Ex is no exception to this (though a much more recent example is Fallout 3). What ends up happening is that players will scour maps for medkits, stockpile tons of them, and then go around effectively carrying a miniature hospital under their coat.

Now, as health management is primarily a variable in combat, consider this scenario with medkits: A player enters a combat situation, and starts trading shots with a couple enemies. At some point, the player is going to get really shot up and is going to duck back behind cover. Now, when this happens, the player is thinking, “ , almost dead, better heal up”. He/she is then, of course, going to take that stockpile of medkits and spam them until they’re healed enough to go back out and keep fighting.

Now imagine that same scenario with regenerative health: A player enters a combat situation, and starts trading shots with a couple enemies. At some point, the player is going to get really shot up, and is going to duck behind cover. Now, when this happens, the player is thinking, “ , I’m almost dead and those guys are coming around to kill me!”.

By opting for a regenerative health model in DX3, the focus in combat is shifted more onto the firefight and the hostile enemies between you and your objective. It’s not as though the player can just pimp into a gunfight T2 style; if you leave yourself exposed while trading speeding projectiles with some pissed off NPCs, you’re gonna die fast. You still have to think carefully, plan out your attacks, and be sensible about managing your resources (perhaps moreso now with the more detailed inventory, even without medkits taking up space).

The details, like exactly what triggers the healing and how quickly health is replenished are still being tweaked, but it’s not like CoD 4 where the very second you stop getting shot you start converting air into the cure for bullet wounds. And as said above, combat is effectively optional; it’s only one of four approaches to the world. Somebody who only sticks to the combative side of DX3 will enjoy a nice shooter, but will miss out on a huge amount of the game, just like anybody who played DX 1 by sticking exclusively to the main path and never went exploring, missed out on the world around them.


---------


Some folks might not like it, but with the way it functions, to people who played through DX 1 using the Regen Aug it won’t make a lot of difference once bullets start flying. I wish I’d had more time to play with it, I’m not crazy about it, but I can live with it and it doesn’t seem to heavily affect the overall feel of the game.

[SemiAnonymous]

I'll hold my judgment until I actually see how it works. I'm somewhat happy to see that it isn't CoD style insta-heal, though. I can sort of see the logic behind it, too.

EDIT: Oh, right. FIRST!1!!!!1!1

[AaronJ]

The only thing I have to say is: You could have a miniature hospital under your coat either way. The only difference is health regen does it automatically. And keeping that in mind, they could screw it up by making it too slow.

My opinion is still exactly the same. This post didn't detail how it works. In Deus Ex, it was a choice. You could hunt for medpacks or you could get the Regeneration aug. This is a choice cut out of the game.

[GmanPro]

Seems like a lot of stuff we already knew about it. My opinion hasn't changed.

The whole, carrying a hospital under your coat and instantly healing yourself during a fight was a problem solved in L4D perfectly, but people always seem to just overlook that like it never even happened.

[Sabretooth]

That part about portable hospitals sweeped me. IIRC, that was one of the criticisms for Deus Ex and Invisible War as well, you collect a bunch of medkits and then when you're in the middle of a firefight, right in the middle, pause and heal up, then get back in. That's just silly.

I was on the fence about this, but I'm definitely for Regenerative Health now. I think it will work something like the actual level and requirements for regenerating health may depend on your skills/augs. In any case, I agree with the decision now and look forward to what appears to be the new Greatest Game Ever.

[Viktoria]

Originally Posted by Sabretooth

I was on the fence about this, but I'm definitely for Regenerative Health now. I think it will work something like the actual level and requirements for regenerating health may depend on your skills/augs. In any case, I agree with the decision now and look forward to what appears to be the new Greatest Game Ever.

Yup, I second that.
I think its time for a brand new health-regen poll (someone, please make one). I'll be happy to jump off the fence now and vote for "I LIKE IT".

[GmanPro]

Originally Posted by Sabretooth

That part about portable hospitals sweeped me. IIRC, that was one of the criticisms for Deus Ex and Invisible War as well, you collect a bunch of medkits and then when you're in the middle of a firefight, right in the middle, pause and heal up, then get back in. That's just silly.

[SemiAnonymous]

Although I'm trying to not pass judgment (like I said above), I do agree with what AJ said. Its a choice, and we're losing that choice. It makes sense, their thought process...but the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Regardless, hopefully this will turn out all right. It sounds like it could work out quite well, lets just see how it works. I'm personally hoping its basically a pre-installed healing aug, complete with costing bio-energy or whatever is used.

[AaronJ]

Originally Posted by SemiAnonymous

Although I'm trying to not pass judgment (like I said above), I do agree with what AJ said. Its a choice, and we're losing that choice. It makes sense, their thought process...but the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Regardless, hopefully this will turn out all right. It sounds like it could work out quite well, lets just see how it works. I'm personally hoping its basically a pre-installed healing aug, complete with costing bio-energy or whatever is used.

Well if they feel this way about health, they'll probably feel the same about BE.

[Icarus AI]

Why not have a system where you are healed by medpacks, but you can't spam 10 medpacks in a second? Like maybe you could use only one medpack every minute (or 30 seconds or whatever). Much better than medpack spamming or regenative health.

Actually it would be better that you could use several medpacks at once, but then you'd have to wait much longer untill you can use them next time (just make up some sci-fi how your body is too strained to be able to take all the nano drugs).

[GmanPro]

EM: "It doesn't make sense that the player can heal themselves that quickly or by that much, so to fix this, we are going to heal them more and faster, and for free."

[SemiAnonymous]

Originally Posted by AaronJ

Well if they feel this way about health, they'll probably feel the same about BE.

D:

Don't say that, man. Don't say it.


It would be interesting seeing them try to justify it, though

[pauldenton]

R.i.p. Dx

[AaronJ]

Originally Posted by SemiAnonymous

D:

Don't say that, man. Don't say it.


It would be interesting seeing them try to justify it, though

Also, they haven't said a word about BE so far. It might not even exist in DX3.

[GmanPro]

Yep. Probably not. Who wants to bet that augs cost nothing, and you can use them endlessly.

[AaronJ]

Not me. I think they'll use a stamina bar.

[Sabretooth]

Originally Posted by GmanPro

EM: "It doesn't make sense that the player can heal themselves that quickly or by that much, so to fix this, we are going to heal them more and faster, and for free."

EM: "It doesn't make sense that the player can heal themselves that quickly or by that much, so to fix this, we are going to make it make sense."

[GmanPro]

Originally Posted by Sabretooth

EM: "It doesn't make sense that the player can heal themselves that quickly or by that much, so to fix this, we are going to make it make sense."

I don't think I even need a witty response. This post is good enough quoted.

[SemiAnonymous]

Originally Posted by AaronJ

Also, they haven't said a word about BE so far. It might not even exist in DX3.

Good point. Mr. K, anything to say?

Hopefully it hasn't gone the way of the medkit, BE is just...required.

[Ninjerk]

Originally Posted by Mr. K

[SIZE="1"]if you leave yourself exposed while trading speeding projectiles with some pissed off NPCs, you’re gonna die fast.

Can you tell us how fast (even in a relative manner)?

You still have to think carefully, plan out your attacks, and be sensible about managing your resources (perhaps moreso now with the more detailed inventory, even without medkits taking up space).

I really hope you're not just going to leave us hanging with that, too!

The details, like exactly what triggers the healing and how quickly health is replenished are still being tweaked, but it’s not like CoD 4 where the very second you stop getting shot you start converting air into the cure for bullet wounds. And as said above, combat is effectively optional; it’s only one of four approaches to the world.

This is a good set of statements.

I don't feel that this is enough for a new poll, quite yet. I, for one, am still skeptical but less so.

[-=fox=-]

Hm... I am still on the fence. Maybe I am even a little bit more worried because Mr K said he isn't very happy with what he saw. I realize it's hard to phrase such posts with all the beating around the bush, his position as moderator and trying to not unecessarily upset the "fundamentalists", so it's a bit like reading the tea leaves on my side - nonetheless I do get do get a strange vibe from his reports.

[Sabretooth]

Originally Posted by GmanPro

I don't think I even need a witty response. This post is good enough quoted.

Because it didn't invite a response, it just stated a point that EM is fixing a logical inconsistency in Deus Ex.

[Ashpolt]

Originally Posted by Mr. K

Now in game design there are two ways to deal with this: Medkits, and Regenerating health.

Their entire reasoning fell apart here. This is not an either / or scenario, there are other options - such as, to bring it up again, Blade_Hunter's medigun idea - which can combine the best parts of both systems.

If that's the best justification they've got for regenerating health, I'm going to keep my original opinion and chalk it down to lazy game design. I can understand them wanting to keep the pressure on in combat - and I agree with that! - but there are other, and better, ways to do that.

[Viktoria]

Originally Posted by -=fox=-

Hm... I am still on the fence. Maybe I am even a little bit more worried because Mr K said he isn't very happy with what he saw. I realize it's hard to phrase such posts with all the beating around the bush, his position as moderator and trying to not unecessarily upset the "fundamentalists", so it's a bit like reading the tea leaves on my side - nonetheless I do get do get a strange vibe from his reports.

Yeah, he said he wasn't crazy about it, but could accept it as it doesn’t seem to heavily affect the overall feel of the game.


That is the most important point for me.

[GmanPro]

Originally Posted by Sabretooth

Because it didn't invite a response, it just stated a point that EM is fixing a logical inconsistency in Deus Ex.

By replacing it with another (worse) logical inconsistency.