HACKING - the All About It Discussion Thread

[Ashpolt]

As it's about the only piece of new information from the FAQ thread, I thought it'd be a good idea to start a conversation about the hacking element of Deus Ex 3. Here's what we know:

Originally Posted by FAQ Thread

Hacking is a major pillar of gameplay in DX3 and is certainly not a mini-game feature like we saw in Bioshock 1. We don't have too much information right now but think of hacking DX3 as almost a Real Time Strategy game where you have your territory that must be defended against the CPU. Again, it remains an option which you can modify with augmentations if that is the way you choose to develop your character. You can spice things up with using your hacking skills and/or your social skills to unlock new possibilities, but you never have to do it if you don't want to.

Personally, I can't see how this can possibly be a good idea. In DX1 and IW (if you had the aug) hacking was something you did all the freaking time, so if it's anywhere near as prevalent in DX3 then we're going to be spending a lot of time playing this not-minigame - and what an immersion breaker! Imagine the scene: you're running away from some enemies, you spot a turret but duck behind a wall before it can shoot you, and you see its control panel. In DX1 or IW, you activate the panel, and in a few seconds you've turned it against the enemies that are chasing you. In DX3, you're going to have to sit there for a while and play a not-minigame, during which time either time pauses (removing any tension from hacking) or you get an angry terrorist boot up your backside.

And as other people have pointed out, even ignoring anything else, this is going to get really, really tedious after a few goes. Did anyone else purposely avoid hacking in Bioshock after a couple of hours just so you didn't have to play the minigame, even though it meant getting less stuff? Yeah, me too.

I never bought into it when people said it before, but I'm beginning to agree now: it seems like the time are trying to make Bioshock 2 rather than Deus Ex 3.

[René]

Originally Posted by Ashpolt

In DX1 and IW (if you had the aug) hacking was something you did all the freaking time, so if it's anywhere near as prevalent in DX3 then we're going to be spending a lot of time playing this not-minigame - and what an immersion breaker!

Two things:

1. You don't have to always hack. You can often use one of the other gameplay pillars to complete the objective without hacking.

2. If you choose to hack, there will be hacking-related Augs that will make hacking easier and quicker if you choose to modify Adam that way.

Originally Posted by Ashpolt

Imagine the scene: you're running away from some enemies, you spot a turret but duck behind a wall before it can shoot you, and you see its control panel. In DX1 or IW, you activate the panel, and in a few seconds you've turned it against the enemies that are chasing you. In DX3, you're going to have to sit there for a while and play a not-minigame, during which time either time pauses (removing any tension from hacking) or you get an angry terrorist boot up your backside.

I like this scenario! But as above, depending on how you've been modifying Adam, hacking can go very quickly.

Originally Posted by Ashpolt

And as other people have pointed out, even ignoring anything else, this is going to get really, really tedious after a few goes. Did anyone else purposely avoid hacking in Bioshock after a couple of hours just so you didn't have to play the minigame, even though it meant getting less stuff? Yeah, me too.

If you don't like it you don't have to do it! Anyway, it's way more fun than the Super Mario plumbing game in Bioshock.

Originally Posted by Ashpolt

I never bought into it when people said it before, but I'm beginning to agree now: it seems like the time are trying to make Bioshock 2 rather than Deus Ex 3.

Well, no.

Bioshock had very limited RPG elements as your weapons and plasmids could all be maxed out all at the same time. In DX3 you have to make choices since you can't get everything in one playthrough, and by choosing some things early on, you won't be able to get some other things later.

And our story is way more complex with many people to talk with. And we have a great dialogue system.

Also, Bioshock was a very linear corridor shooter. Deus Ex 3 has large open environments that are non-linear with different ways to solve objectives.

[Ashpolt]

Again, your answer revolves around "if you don't like this bad gameplay element, avoid it" - much as with third person and multi-kill augs. How can you keep touting this as a game full of choice if players are going to be put off playing certain ways just because they don't want to run into questionable game mechanics?

So if I want to play a game that sticks to template set by DX1, I can't hack, I can't use cover properly, and I can't use certain augs - doesn't sound like much choice, does it?

[René]

Originally Posted by Ashpolt

Again, your answer revolves around "if you don't like this bad gameplay element, avoid it"

Yikes. Sorry Ashpolt but I completely disagree with you. Hacking in DX3 is so much better than DX1's "press a button and wait for the progress bar to reach 100%" method.

Originally Posted by Ashpolt

So if I want to play a game that sticks to template set by DX1, I can't hack

If you like DX1's style of hacking over DX3's, augment Adam with hacking augs so that it becomes quicker and easier.

Originally Posted by Ashpolt

I can't use cover properly

If you like DX1's style of cover, you can do the same thing in DX3 and remain in 1st person.

Originally Posted by Ashpolt

and I can't use certain augs

Augmentations have different effects and different ways of being displayed.

[Blade_hunter]

I just imagine if the game features everything you don't like

[Ashpolt]

Originally Posted by René

Yikes. Sorry Ashpolt but I completely disagree with you. Hacking in DX3 is so much better than DX1's "press a button and wait for the progress bar to reach 100%" method.

Opinion. It worked fine in DX1: it was quick, it was something that could be done on every terminal you reached, and it didn't remove you from the game. This not-a-minigame obviously will do that.

Originally Posted by René

If you like DX1's style of hacking over DX3's, augment Adam with hacking augs so that it becomes quicker and easier.

But will still remove me from the game world? And either way, I'll have to play through a good chunk of the game using this not-a-minigame method before I get to a point where it's quick.

Originally Posted by René

If you like DX1's style of cover, you can do the same thing in DX3 and remain in 1st person.

And judging by other games that use this method of cover, it won't actually register cover as well in first person as it does in third, because the game won't sense me as being "dug in." This could be different in Deus Ex 3, but it's this way in every other game that uses this cover style, and it seems to be a flaw inherent in the system rather than anything else, so I'm not going to get my hopes up that it won't be there.

Originally Posted by René

Augmentations have different effects and different ways of being displayed.

Yeah, and some of those will flit me into immersion-breaking third person to show off my "cool moves" so I won't want to use them, but for game mechanic reasons rather than because they're not useful - exactly the point I was making.

Originally Posted by Blade_hunter

I just imagine if the game features everything you don't like

Thus far, that's pretty much the game they're making. And it's a shame, too, because your "medigun" idea was really, really good. If only the dev team had your sense of ingenuity.

[facepalm]

René, can you elaborate on the hacking system a bit more, I'm genuinely intrigued by what little we've heard so far.

I understand the feature is still undergoing development, so you can't give out information that is too specific and probably bound to change at some point, but if you could give us your impressions of the system, and use expressions beyond "awesome" and "wicked cool", preferably tell us something like what other RTSes it "kind of reminds you of", or, if you're feeling very generous, give us a generic overview of some of the basic gameplay concepts.

[steelle]

I talked to a friend of mine about this and he suggested that what they mean by a hacking system that feels like an RTS game is just that when you hack, the computer will try to counter your hack, and you will have to respond accordingly. There could easily be augs that change this process, maybe by rendering the computer defenseless and slowing its reaction time to your moves. Hacking could require skill when you suck at it, but with augmentation would be just like the DX hack of old where you press a button and forget about it.

Personally I think that sounds pretty cool. Is it so bad that the dev team want to add in something original? All of the big complaints people have so far don't seem that big of a deal to me. The regenerating health maybe because that means no location based damage system, but as long as there are still augs to change/speed up that process I'm cool.

Why is everyone so angry before they even see some footage? Also, Rene, when will we see some footage?

[Blade_hunter]

Originally Posted by Ashpolt

Thus far, that's pretty much the game they're making. And it's a shame, too, because your "medigun" idea was really, really good. If only the dev team had your sense of ingenuity.

LOL, I didn't expected somebody would really appreciate the idea, and less with a compliment of that kind, because I'm sure people thinks I'm stupid with my "ambitious ideas from the hell"

The fact we got hacking related augs seems to be a bit strange IMO
In deus ex 2 we got the neural interface the one that was integrated in DX1 and not in the 2 but the one from the 2 gave us the ability to hack directly.

For the rest I prefer to see some details ...

[K^2]

Ashpolt brought up a good point.

Rene, does the engine actually check the line of sight to see if you are hidden or not, or does it simply check if you are using cover system?

[GmanPro]

Originally Posted by Ashpolt

...I'll have to play through a good chunk of the game using this not-a-minigame method before I get to a point where it's quick.

This is one of my main concerns with the concept too. At least the hacking system in DX1 never got old or tedious, although I think that part of the reason that the 'plumbing' hacking minigame in BioShock was so annoying was because it was used for everything from security turrets to locked safes. I'm assuming that lock picking and multitool'in will still be a part of DX3's gameplay.

PLEASE tell me you guys didn't remove lock picking and multitool'in for something moar 'efficient'.

[HouseOfPain]

Rene, I think honestly it's just miscommunication on your part.

Correct me if I'm wrong, and please answer any questions I ask ^^.

If you want to hack something, you go up to it, press a button, and all the sudden it's like starting up a game of Starcraft?



Anyway, how long will hacking take? I know it changes depending on how many augs you put into hacking, but give us an estimate if you don't have ANY augs.

Also, once hacked, can you stay in the terminal for as long as you want?

[Ashpolt]

Originally Posted by K^2

Ashpolt brought up a good point.

Rene, does the engine actually check the line of sight to see if you are hidden or not, or does it simply check if you are using cover system?

Sorry, don't get me wrong, I'm sure it'll check line of sight to some degree, I just don't think it'll be as effective staying in first person as it will pressing the "dig-in" button. If nothing else, the level you can crouch normally is fixed: you can make yourself, say, 3ft tall. However, using the dig in button, it's adapted to the object you're using as cover, so you might be able to take cover behind a 2.5 foot wall by using dig-in, but just crouching normally you'll have your head poking out and so will still be able to get shot.

I don't know if I'm explaining it well...do you get what I'm trying to say?

[facepalm]

Originally Posted by steelle

I talked to a friend of mine about this and he suggested that what they mean by a hacking system that feels like an RTS game is just that when you hack, the computer will try to counter your hack, and you will have to respond accordingly.

At its heart it is an RTS, so you're going to have some kind of economy system and a selection of units at your disposal. I'd like it if René gave us some kind of reference, like another RTS title, so we could get a better grasp of the idea.

I've been tossing around various ideas, and the one that appeals to me the most is a sort of minigame that isn't a clickfest against the computer, but has rather simple mechanics and is more slow paced and macro-oriented, where you'd have the initial stage of gaining access to the system, after which you have to still keep paying attention to the game while you're trying to absorb the information you came looking for in the first place.

As long as it isn't cyberspace Starcraft I'll remain cautiously optimistic.

[Blade_hunter]

Some games are like commandos or like ground control and nothing like warcraft/starcraft

[René]

Originally Posted by Ashpolt

Opinion. It worked fine in DX1: it was quick, it was something that could be done on every terminal you reached, and it didn't remove you from the game. This not-a-minigame obviously will do that.

But will still remove me from the game world?

Actually, no! You'll be glad to hear that unlike Deus Ex 1, which took you out of the game world and presented you with a new screen and the progress bar, hacking in DX3 keeps you in the world. Everything is rendered in-engine so as you're hacking at a terminal, you can still look around, up, down, left, and right as things are happening. You have to keep an eye out for guard patrols as you're trying to hack.

[René]

Originally Posted by HouseOfPain

If you want to hack something, you go up to it, press a button, and all the sudden it's like starting up a game of Starcraft?

See below.

Originally Posted by facepalm

René, can you elaborate on the hacking system a bit more, I'm genuinely intrigued by what little we've heard so far.

See below.

Originally Posted by steelle

I talked to a friend of mine about this and he suggested that what they mean by a hacking system that feels like an RTS game is just that when you hack, the computer will try to counter your hack, and you will have to respond accordingly. There could easily be augs that change this process, maybe by rendering the computer defenseless and slowing its reaction time to your moves. Hacking could require skill when you suck at it, but with augmentation would be just like the DX hack of old where you press a button and forget about it.

This is pretty accurate. But I didn't say 'nothin!

Originally Posted by HouseOfPain

Anyway, how long will hacking take? I know it changes depending on how many augs you put into hacking, but give us an estimate if you don't have ANY augs.

It depends on the security of the terminal itself. But probably anywhere from 10 seconds to 30 seconds or more for really hard ones? Don't quote me on that since I don't want the dev team to beat me with reeds.

Originally Posted by HouseOfPain

Also, once hacked, can you stay in the terminal for as long as you want?

Yes.

Originally Posted by K^2

Rene, does the engine actually check the line of sight to see if you are hidden or not, or does it simply check if you are using cover system?

Line of sight.

[Igoe]

Thats good, something I really wanted out of DX1 was the ability to know what was going on around me while i hacked. In MOST cases NPCs would freeze before they fired, so while u were in dialogue or hacking the NPCs would run up and waiy for you, but with multitools and lockpics it kept you in real time and you had to keep focused on the door, like you would if actually lockpicking.

One thing that always bothered me in the Hitman series was that the animation showed 47 looking left and right as he lockpicked, checking cover, but if a guard DID wander by, 47 just kept picking. If he's going to LOOK it might as well have an auto stop function so that the looking means something.

If I can hack (through whatever means) and gameplay still carries on normally, thats a good thing. Makes you think twice before hacking.

HOWEVER, Ashpolt is also on the right track, and you should eventually be fully able to one-click your way into a system with the correct suite of augmentations.

[PlasmaSnake101]

Originally Posted by René

It depends on the security of the terminal itself. But probably anywhere from 10 seconds to 30 seconds or more for really hard ones? Don't quote me on that since I don't want the dev team to beat me with reeds.

Sorry, couldn't resist...

[lumpi]

Originally Posted by René

Actually, no! You'll be glad to hear that unlike Deus Ex 1, which took you out of the game world and presented you with a new screen and the progress bar, hacking in DX3 keeps you in the world. Everything is rendered in-engine so as you're hacking at a terminal, you can still look around, up, down, left, and right as things are happening. You have to keep an eye out for guard patrols as you're trying to hack.

You mean Doom3 style? Loved that way of doing in-game computers...

[HouseOfPain]

Originally Posted by René

Actually, no! You'll be glad to hear that unlike Deus Ex 1, which took you out of the game world and presented you with a new screen and the progress bar, hacking in DX3 keeps you in the world. Everything is rendered in-engine so as you're hacking at a terminal, you can still look around, up, down, left, and right as things are happening. You have to keep an eye out for guard patrols as you're trying to hack.

Speaking of this, what about Data Cubes? The same I assume?

[jamhaw]

Originally Posted by René

Yikes. Sorry Ashpolt but I completely disagree with you. Hacking in DX3 is so much better than DX1's "press a button and wait for the progress bar to reach 100%" method.

I have to say I think that the interactive hacking idea sounds really good. I really disliked the press a button and wait system. Will we still have timelimits on how long we can use a computer?

Originally Posted by René

Actually, no! You'll be glad to hear that unlike Deus Ex 1, which took you out of the game world and presented you with a new screen and the progress bar, hacking in DX3 keeps you in the world. Everything is rendered in-engine so as you're hacking at a terminal, you can still look around, up, down, left, and right as things are happening. You have to keep an eye out for guard patrols as you're trying to hack.

How big will the terminals be then? Or is the game just really simple? It seems like it may be difficult to play the minigame with a small little screen.

[HouseOfPain]

Originally Posted by jamhaw

Will we still have timelimits on how long we can use a computer?

Originally Posted by HouseOfPain

Also, once hacked, can you stay in the terminal for as long as you want?

Rene; Yes.

There you go

[Ashpolt]

Originally Posted by René

Actually, no! You'll be glad to hear that unlike Deus Ex 1, which took you out of the game world and presented you with a new screen and the progress bar, hacking in DX3 keeps you in the world. Everything is rendered in-engine so as you're hacking at a terminal, you can still look around, up, down, left, and right as things are happening. You have to keep an eye out for guard patrols as you're trying to hack.

OK, THERE'S the good news I've been waiting for! I still don't like the idea of a hacking minigame, but I've warmed to it a lot from that news.

Alternatively, I might just be in a more mellow mood than earlier because I've spent the last hour and a half shooting zombie-alikes. :P

Out of interest, if you can tell us: do all computer terminals work this way? I.E. even if I have a username and password, and so don't need to hack, does it stay in the world? I assume so, but it'd be nice to have it confirmed.

Also - do we get to type in usernames and password (and keycodes) manually? It really bugged me in IW that it did it automatically for you!

[lumpi]

Originally Posted by Ashpolt

Also - do we get to type in usernames and password (and keycodes) manually? It really bugged me in IW that it did it automatically for you!

God, yes, I just remembered about this.

If the team can answer this question with a "yes", my hopes for DX3 would be semi-restored. It's almost a better indicator of the "feel" of the game than that horrible medkit discussion.