Regenerating Health: The Poll, 2.0

[HouseOfPain]

Originally Posted by GmanPro

^^ He could have meant only the Gears of War fans who 'happen' to be idiots, and not all of them. In other words the lowest common denominator of an already simple console-shooter crowd . Face it, there are more dumb people than smart people in any mob, and console mobs, like those who play Gears of War for example, happen to be the biggest video game market out there. So ... that's a lot of stupid people.

^^^ What he said,

Quote from me, on page 3. --v

Originally Posted by HouseOfPain

I have an Xbox 360 Elite, a HUGE, and I mean HUGE Halo 3 poster in my room, about four feet tall and three feet wide, and I'm I think a level 42 in "Lone Wolves". (Granted I stopped playing around 3-4 months after release).

I play Halo because, when I want to play a mindless, brainless shooting game, I PLAY A MINDLESS, BRAINLESS SHOOTING GAME! When I want to play an intellectually stimulating, cause and effect, "choice is everything" game where I don't ACTUALLY have to kill anybody (but I can if I want to), I play Deus Ex.

Originally Posted by HouseOfPain

Right, when I said Halo 3 "idiots", I was referring to no one in particular, and I meant any brainless zombie-gamer... like... anyone who ONLY likes Halo, I don't know. *shrug*

[MyImmortal]

You know the saying guys: nothing exists except atoms and empty space; everything else is opinion.

So,back on topic, huh?

[Bluey71]

Only 54 voters?

How many people registered for the Dx3 forum?

Edit: Oh hang on - just noticed Rene also posts over on the TTLG forums - lots of ppl over there. That must be it.

[MyImmortal]

I'm always at TTLG to check the latest Thief fan missions out.

I think its early days yet for voting perhaps? Another promotion (new teaser trailer, interview etc.) should bring in some new members.

[Necros]

Originally Posted by steelle

Would people rather have a system like in Far Cry 2? Not the healing animations

I'd love to see that in more games, it was awesome. Same with the whole first person actor thing, open a door - your character will reach for it and grab it, use the map in the game and so on. I hope more devs will do these things.

[Power_Incarnate]

One of the main reasons i liked Deus Ex was because of the long term tactics i had to use. What would happen if i did this to this person, or do this now, or do this later?
I liked the limited ammo system, it forced me to do things tactically, i liked having to do a situation perfectly to minimize the amount of damage i took. If i wanted to play a crazed shooter, i would play halo where all the action is in the moment and i would not have to worry about what i have five mins from now,

If anything, there should be an option to turn if off in the menu, right next to the difficulty setting
besides, ill miss hacking snack machines for a few candy bars to replenish my health.

[Blade_hunter]

The thing I misunderstand is why Halo players are smarter than GOW players, it's pretty much the same people...

[lumpi]

Originally Posted by Blade_hunter

The thing I misunderstand is why Halo players are smarter than GOW players, it's pretty much the same people...

Yes and this: http://videos.streetfire.net/video/F...kit_634290.htm

Honestly, though, this isn't a discussion about what style is better or smarter (some people like to occasionally play something fun and fast paced, yet have "Master of Orion" installed at the same time... like me for god's sake).

It's about what fits the uniqueness of the Deus Ex franchise better.

[MyImmortal]

Originally Posted by lumpi

Honestly, though, this isn't a discussion about what style is better or smarter (some people like to occasionally play something fun and fast paced, yet have "Master of Orion" installed at the same time... like me for god's sake).

I agree, its human error to stereotype gamers, or anyone else for that fact.

**

Anyway, back on topic.
Seems like the poll is turning out similar to version 1. Agree or disagree?

[lumpi]

Originally Posted by MyImmortal

Seems like the poll is turning out similar to version 1. Agree or disagree?

Disagree! Completely different!

I demand a third one...

PS: I just had to think of that part of Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy (close eyes if you haven't read it yet ): A supercomputer took a million years to calculate the answer to the question: "What is the meaning of life?". The answer was "42". Confused, the wise people who received the answer came to the conclusion: They were asking the wrong question all along. So they built an even bigger super computer - to find the right question.

[Ashpolt]

Originally Posted by MyImmortal

Seems like the poll is turning out similar to version 1. Agree or disagree?

Agree....though, just to stick the boot in, I think it's turning out closer to the way I read poll 1 ("I don't like it but I'll accept it" as a negative vote") rather than the "unless it's a vote for I hate it, it's a positive vote" reading. It's clear that the majority are against this idea, a reasonable minority are unsure as of yet, and only a very small minority (<10%)actually like the idea.

In other words, Eidos would definitely be doing themselves a favour if they scrapped regenerating health and went for something else. It doesn't have to be health packs, just something less passive - Blade_Hunter's medigun idea could be a perfect solution with a tiny bit of work.

So, to actually move the discussion on slightly: what would be your ideal solution for the health "issue" in DX3, and why?

As I've said, I like Blade_Hunter's idea of a medigun, though I'd adapt it ever so slightly. Basically, it's an item that takes up no inventory space and can't be dropped. You have to actually activate it manually - with a single button press, you don't need to equip it then use it separately, and once you've used it it unequips automatically and goes back to whatever you had equipped before. It takes a couple of seconds to use - less than, say, the health packs in L4D, but enough that it still needs a bit of tactical consideration. At full charge it can heal 100% of your health, and you can use it at any charge stage, though obviously the less charged it is the less it will heal. From empty, it takes quite a while to recharge - the exact time would need to be decided through testing, but it needs to be slow enough that you don't just use it all the time, so offhand let's say 3 minutes.

Advantages to this system:
+It's not passive, which is what I (and I think quite a lot of people) most dislike about auto health regen.
+It's unlimited, so no "hunting for medpacks."
+It takes a while to activate, so you can't just use it in direct combat and be healed instantly
+It can be upgraded to recharge quicker (though if they do this, the initial recharge rate should perhaps be even slower)
+There will still be consequences for charging into battle unprepared, as after you've used it you are a lot more vulnerable for a few minutes
+Can have a first person animation to show Adam actually doing something to regain health
+Is not available 100% of the time (due to recharge) so leaves in the possibility for medbots and food / drink items for that extra health boost.

Disadvantages:
-Makes the health regen aug pretty useless, but then so does auto health regen, so it's still better than the current system
-Might cause some players to be over-cautious: i.e. sit and wait for their medigun to recharge after every fight. That's their problem though, I guess.

...And I really can't think of any other disadvantages. I genuinely believe this would be almost infinitely better than auto health regen. So here's the deal, Eidos: implement this, and I won't complain about anything else - 3rd person, hacking minigame, multi-kill augs, whatever, I'll be fine with it. Just please, please put in a better system than auto-regen!

What do you all think? Can you see any other weaknesses in this system? Have you got a better idea?

[Daniel_Smith]

regeneration system is just a cheating. you see, the classic system with ending HP and savegame function was interesting and competetive coz it made us to replay the location in order to do it flawlessly. and that is what made DX a hardcore game - you load until you solve problem WELL.

Regeneration is just like AvP2 playing for Predator - endless "recharge and heal" thing.

ps. if its inevitible - let they just do REGENERATION as a radiobutton in a difficulty choosing at the very beginning of newgame.

[Ninjerk]

Heh, auto-regen wouldn't have mattered too much in DX if you played on Realistic. Snipers would one shot your limbs, and if you got too close they'd one shot your life. I just started a new playthrough on Realistic and dumped a clip at the one sniper on the level who was running laterally across my vision about 8 feet in front of me. He stopped, aimed, and I died.

Auto regen would be better if it would only kick in when you're at low health and only pump you back up to either the threshold or up far enough that you can't run back and take on multiple squads of enemies all at once.

[Blade_hunter]

+Can have a first person animation to show Adam actually doing something to regain health

This what I've thought about the classic health system from DX, you can choose what part of your body you heal first
The players who wants to finish too quickly they need to take care about their health and about their exposition to enemy fire also the food and other healing items can complete the medigun if they exists
and even it can fit with the scenario as an augmentation like they planed to use the autoheal as a basic aug we can make a sort of integrated medical tool that acts at the same manner

-The other weakness from my system it's you need to switch weapons / tools to cure yourself (hopefully it recharges itself when you use a weapon or put it in your pocket.)

-But an other advantage it's some upgrades can make the medgun more versatile or take other uses

And even if it makes the health regen aug "useless" it has some weaknesses and can't allow a player to stay much in a sustained fire fight.

If they wants something like the auto regen the medigun as an integrated tool or like the DX's keyring a default and non removable tool

As for the predators healing system in AVP2 it was a bit more balanced than an autoheal system because it takes time and even in a too exposed fire it has some limits we can heal quickly one time and the other time we need to recharge our energy to use the health thing again. with the autoheal we are always ready to fight even with 2hp we regain that by not receive damage we can survive much longer and even easily win against a situation because the autoheal is completely automatic, in AVP2 as a predator we manage our health.

[thomasaquinas]

Ha! 40 - 6 against.

Why the are we even still talking about this? By this point, the only reasonable conclusion as to why Health Regen hasn't been removed from the game is simply hubris and arrogance on the part of the developer.

Augmented with complete absence of artistic integrity in favour of financial gain.

EM have an atrocious reputation and they haven't even released a game yet. Not that it would remotely concern them, I imagine - if they still stand to gain monetarily anyway.

[Ashpolt]

Originally Posted by Blade_hunter

-The other weakness from my system it's you need to switch weapons / tools to cure yourself (hopefully it recharges itself when you use a weapon or put it in your pocket.)

I wouldn't even call that a weakness of the system, really, as it forces you to stop shooting for a moment to use it, thus adding a risk/reward aspect to it. The more I think about this, the more I think it's a better system even than health packs...

Originally Posted by thomasaquinas

By this point, the only reasonable conclusion as to why Health Regen hasn't been removed from the game is simply hubris and arrogance on the part of the developer.

Well, firstly they probably don't think this forum is representative of their overall customer base, which may be true, but as I said before do they have a better metric to go against? And secondly, I'd imagine probably the real reason for them not removing it is an issue of time and effort, but to be perfectly honest I'd far rather wait an extra 6 months (which is more than enough time to change the system) and see a better health system than have it sooner and worse.

[Caradoc]

I don't post here much. Still from time to time I come back here to check out the latest news regarding the prequel to one of my all time favourite rpgs (Deus Ex 1). For example I have followed this debate with great intrest.

Having a health regen won't probably become a gamekiller, like the universal ammo or like those silly changable augmentations, but it reflects the most popular design philosophy in today's games. According to this philosophy games should never irratate player or make him improve his skills (or his characters skill as we are discussing rpgs here). Heck the player should never be set against the odds that speak loudly for his disfavour or make him belive that he could have made a bad choise. I however don't agree with this baby sitting.

I don't want a game to hold my hand. I want to learn and beat the game using it's own rules. If i make a bad choise like choosing a wrong augementation I'll learn to live with it or If I was careless and didn't properly examine the dead mechanic , I would carry the consequences and accept Jock's death as my personal failure. Learning curve is not a curse word, but for some reason it is for many developers. There are always people with short attention spans, but to be frank those people aren't exactly part of your core audience. So why are you trying to please them so much?

A player who doesn't want to scout ahead before entering a room with hostiles deserves to get killed. Maybe next time he remembers to use his brains. Like throwing a gas granade before entering a room or enabling faster running and ballistic protection or taking a back door route.

To me Dues ex was always a stealth game first and an action game second. I played it always with realistic setting so open fire fight was rarely a wise choise. I'm not the greatest twich player, but I don't spit to action either. However what I dislike is brainless action. A game that doesn't require to aply tactics isn't very exciting. I loved how my aim was all shaky if I didn't train Jc's skills properly and even when it didn't I'd usually move through shadows and kill enemies with headshots, used lots of lams and gas grens, I never gave them a fair chance even if I could . Jc was nano augmented but he wasn't a superman. Augs gave him the advantage, but they never made him immortal. even the healing aug had it's cost. Deus Ex 1 was more realistic than arcade. Thats why we love it.

Now I hope that this new health regen is similar to the aug in DX1. If it operates with bio energy and it heals you slowly I'm all for it, but if it is has infinite resources and it operates with lighting speed, I'm against it.

[GmanPro]

Originally Posted by Caradoc

Now I hope that this new health regen is similar to the aug in DX1. If it operates with bio energy and it heals you slowly I'm all for it, but if it is has infinite resources and it operates with lighting speed, I'm against it.

They said that they don't want their players searching for medkits, but they never said anything about bio-electric cells Hopefully there will still be plenty of them lying around the place for the player to find.

Actually nm, they also said that they wanted to keep the action flowing non stop. That, coupled with the earlier statement that DX1 moved too 'slowly' really has me worried about this new "Deus Ex" game.

Honestly EM, the reason that I and most of the others here were so attracted to Deus Ex, was because it was different from everything else on the market. So stop trying to make it just like every other fad video game out there.

[jamhaw]

Originally Posted by GmanPro

They said that they don't want their players searching for medkits, but they never said anything about bio-electric cells Hopefully there will still be plenty of them lying around the place for the player to find.

Do you need Bio-Electric Cells for Mech-Augs? I can't recall Gunther or Anna using them.

[Mr. K]

Originally Posted by jamhaw

Do you need Bio-Electric Cells for Mech-Augs? I can't recall Gunther or Anna using them.

True, but you never really talked to them about it either.

[Ninjerk]

I think Anna had one in her office at some point, on the book shelf past her desk as you're heading towards the holding cells.

[Blade_hunter]

I'm pretty sure the health regen have nothing in relation about the biomod from the old DX games.
Really if they doesn't want we search kits around the levels, in that case, energy cells = medikits then it's not related with

René said it works hand to hand with the cover system, what that would mean ?
The thing I understood it's the system from R6 vegas / GOW in first person second what René said.

[Irate Iguana]

Originally Posted by jamhaw

Do you need Bio-Electric Cells for Mech-Augs? I can't recall Gunther or Anna using them.

It makes sense that you do need Bio-Electric Cells for the mechanical augmentations. The augs need to be powered somehow. Not even nano-augs can be powered by the body. So it makes sense that there is something else to provide power.

In the VersaLife building you can read an e-mail concerning the Commando's Obsidian armor. They mention that it can be powered by standard bio-electric cells. The armor is basically a mechanical augmentation, so it makes sense that the same bioelectric cells can be used to power the normal mechanical augmentations.

[MyImmortal]

^
Yes, this is true...

[HouseOfPain]

Hmm... pretty much disliked all around!