Regenerating Health: The Poll, 2.0

[InGroove2]

Originally Posted by HouseOfPain

What are you talking about? There's no consequence for doing something like that with Regenerating Health, you simply Regenerate the health and you can do it over 100000000000 times.

wait a second. let's get on the same page here.

i'm to understand that the health regen happens relatively slow... meaing if you get shallacked, you'll die unless you can get away to let your health come back.

right?

so in that scenario how is that worse or better in terms of game play than hitting pause and instantly using medpacks without and game time used up?


seems like you're in idiot in both scenarios only in the health regen one you die unless you get away... in the other you don't even have to get away.

now you made the point that you can run out of medpacks... which is obvious, but like i said, i NEVER ran out of them in DX1 and if you got into a sitch where you'd need more than the alloted amount you should probably stop playing the game anyway.


so the point remains. WHAT's worse? Instantly using 3 medpacks when you get shallacked. or running away to regenerate?

yes regeneration is endless. but that point is moot when you consider the abundance of medpacks in DX and that you can use them instantly.

effectively BOTH games have situations where you're simply NOT going to die unless you neglect your well being completely.

REPEATING.

in DX you hit pause and use a pack. in DX3 you run away and wait a second or two.


i'm simly pointing out that in reality, the difference between the two systems is OFTEN moot when you consider the instant use and abundance of medpacks in DX.

[GmanPro]

^^ Which is why you find a solution in the middle. Just because medkits aren't perfect, doesn't mean that we should do away with them entirely.

[K^2]

Yeah. Personally, I don't have a problem with really, really slow regeneration, as long as the health packs are still a part of the game.

Fast regeneration will make strike-and-run too easy of a tactic. Slow regen would make it mind-numbingly boring, and almost force player to plan attacks carefully. At the same time, however, slow regen would break flow of the game if there is no way to regenerate fast - but it has to be a limited resource.

I hate to bring it up again, but this is the case where Diablo-style healing could actually work. Very slow regeneration with availability of potions that significantly speed up regeneration for a brief period of time. That would be perfectly balanced.

The problem is that from everything I've heard, regen is meant to work during combat, which means it will be fairly rapid. This will make strike-and-run the core combat tactic, and that just isn't right for DX.

[maikkeey]

Originally Posted by K^2

Yeah. Personally, I don't have a problem with really, really slow regeneration, as long as the health packs are still a part of the game.

That is basically what I was thinking when I posted some arguments for health regen a few days ago....but I don't think that health packs will be in the game, although they could still use things from DX1/2 like soda/chocolate/soy/bread etc to give your health a quick boost in a sticky situation
I honestly think that if it is done right and it doesn't regenerate too fast then this could be a good thing for DX, making the player form a stategy to get through each area with multiple enemies

I'll admit I haven't read this whole thread coz I haven't got time so I apologize if anyone has asked this before me but......

Rene, can you give us a clear indication of how fast the health regenerates?

[pha]

I still don't like it. It's still an excuse to babysit impatient kids and an insult to other players' intelligence.

[Blade_hunter]

Hey it's the same system as in R6 vegas, I am pretty certain of that.
Why persons thinks there is medkits if the Autoheal works in combination with the cover system and the developers doesn't want you go around the levels to search medkits
That's nothing in relation with the health system in Red Faction 2 that recharges slowly or even the one in Pariah.
those two games kept the medikits

They doesn't want you leave your mission to search health resources, or force you to leave a combat to search health kits around the level or even find a medbot.
They doesn't want you run with 2 HP and get in panic for that
You die only if you are too exposed in a fire fight or you fall from a too high location ....

[Absentia]

As well as the speed it takes to regenerate being slow, I think it's also worth considering the length of time that comes between since you were last damaged, and when the health actually starts regenerating (assuming that it isn't instantaneous and regens during combat - that would be effing stupid.)
I was at first totally against the idea, but a combination of what Rene has said, and my own wishful thinking (which I'll admit isn't something we really should be having in serious discussion) has made me think that if DX3 really has all those elements that it used to justify the regen system, then it wont be so bad, and would have its advantages too.

[GmanPro]

I'd still much rather have bio-energy regenerate slowly. Then you could say that while you are regenerating your health after taking damage, your bio-energy stops regenerating to account for it. Wouldn't be too hard of a thing to mod anyway. But seriously, if it is even somewhat feasible to mod medkits into this game, then I'm going to look into it. I'm hoping that they have at least some code hidden away somewhere from the early stages, from the time before they committed to regenerating health (probably not). This of course all hinges on an SDK, and I don't think the new FAQ thread touched on this...

[Viktoria]

Although we don't know how reliable the information is, the latest article posted in the general discussion thread says:

Eidos has also said that the health of the main character will also automatically regenerate, owing to the biomechanical implants he’s got installed.

So, Adam only gains the ability to auto-heal once he installs the aug at a later point in the story, it seems.
In the FAQs thread, it says Adam starts off all-human/pure - so that suggests he has no implants at the start of the game:

WHO IS DEUS EX 3's PROTAGONIST?
The lead character is Adam Jensen, a security response specialist who's been handpicked to oversee the defensive needs of one of America's most experimental biotechnology firms. You, playing as Adam, are all-human, all organic.... for now, that is. You start pure, but as the story unfolds you are forced to augment yourself in order to survive and achieve objectives. Adam has a history leading up to the events that start the game, so his background is well fleshed out and we will learn more about him and his past, and his future, as the game progresses.

Thoughts?

[Ashpolt]

It'll be installed before you ever get into combat. There'll be a brief "safe" run around section a la Invisible War, then you'll hear about the break in and maybe see a few enemies through unbreakable glass (or whatever - point is, they won't be able to shoot you) so you'll get the auto-heal aug installed straight away. Alternatively, it'll just be something that Saref install in their security personnel as standard, to make them more resilient in combat.

I'm sure it'll make sense from a storyline perspective, doesn't justify it from a gameplay perspective though.

[schila]

I made an account just so i could vote no to this regen discussion....
If you at ANY point in the game makes 100% free regen a part of it, you'll utterly destroy the whole gotta save my health... It will be shoot-hide-shoot repeat till the enemy is dead, the game wont be hard and you wont do anything odd or wierd to come out of certain situations since you'll haev 100% health all the time. This would be similair to the dow2 campaign where dieing was *** impossible, which made the play-part of the campaign suck...

Final note, PLEASE dont make passive-free regen a part of this game...

[HouseOfPain]

^ Thank you for voting

[Reaper47]

Originally Posted by MyImmortal

Although we don't know how reliable the information is, the latest article posted in the general discussion thread says:



So, Adam only gains the ability to auto-heal once he installs the aug at a later point in the story, it seems.
In the FAQs thread, it says Adam starts off all-human/pure - so that suggests he has no implants at the start of the game:



Thoughts?

I'm seeing some light at the end of the tunnel there. If your interpretation is correct... this discussion is pointless(!).

Mom? -I mean: Rene?

[Blade_hunter]

I got a question to ask because it seems most of us dislike the fact the heal is completely passive without any management around.

I proposed a non passive method that could work IMO, some other persons here can propose something alike. something that can provide free health but not passive and with a little management around.
I'm serious

I proposed a medigun but it can be something a bit different even a sort of default mech augmentation that can made something integrated on us.

This reminds me the computer arm from the Predator

[K^2]

Originally Posted by MyImmortal

So, Adam only gains the ability to auto-heal once he installs the aug at a later point in the story, it seems.
In the FAQs thread, it says Adam starts off all-human/pure - so that suggests he has no implants at the start of the game:

That's likely to be like the intro to HL. You know, before you get your HEV suit. You'll probably get all your basic augs, like infolink, light, and regeneration, before you start on any actual missions.

[Blade_hunter]

DX 2 had something like that when we began we don't have mods even the Complete HUD appears later on the game, but the Autoheal seems to be a Perk in that case no ?

[pha]

Originally Posted by Blade_hunter

I proposed a non passive method that could work IMO, some other persons here can propose something alike. something that can provide free health but not passive and with a little management around.

I really loved your medigun idea mon ami, but I think it doesn't fit EM's reasons to introduce auto regen. It seems they just want it to be simple and automatic to provide accessibility.

My proposal, not as simple as CoD style auto heal and not as complex (!!!) as Health Packages, would probably be a primitive Mech version of Health Leech Drone in IW. It required bio energy and nearby corpses (read: COMBAT) to heal and I think it was quite balanced. It was also automatic once you formed the drone.

[Qumni]

just make regen SLOW on hard/realistic difficulty,
and enemies should be smarter, use cover, grenades, teamwork...

[GmanPro]

*Sigh* the more I think about it, the more I realize how stupid auto-regen is. I WANT to search for medkits EM! Give me back my medkits!

[HouseOfPain]

Originally Posted by GmanPro

*Sigh* the more I think about it, the more I realize how stupid auto-regen is. I WANT to search for medkits EM! Give me back my medkits!

Medkits <3

[Blade_hunter]

Originally Posted by pha

It seems they just want it to be simple and automatic to provide accessibility.

Arf this what I finished to think too, it's for that reason I asked the question

[mad_red]

Both regen and medkits can be fun. Let's find out how.

Here's the biggest difference between regen and health packs:

Health packs:

- Health packs give you some flexibility in combat by healing up to a maximum of health (determined by the number of health packs you carry). In other words, you have limited resources.

- If you change tactics (stealth, moving to flank, etc. etc.), you nor the enemy health will be affected. The resources and thus the difficulty remains the same; the challenge remains the same regardless of your activity.

- A given battle cannot be won through flawed tactics or attrition. Lack of medkits forces a change of tactics or reloading earlier saves to correct earlier mistakes.


Autoheal:

- Regenerating health gives you an infinite resource, but takes time to work. Usually that means momentarily avoiding combat (taking cover, stealth, moving to flank, etc. etc.).

- Regen kicks in as soon as you take damage. In a given battle, your resource is constantly replenished, while that of the enemy is not. The challenge of a battle gradually decreases.

- Any given battle will eventually be won through attrition regardless of of tactics. A lack of health does not require different tactics, and earlier mistakes are forgiven.


"HEY, that doesn't sound fair to autoheal!!!" Not true - autoheal is great for games with no augs and skills, just weapons. Each battle is a test of playing skills (sinceyou don't have abilities), and adjusts automatically to the players skill, eg: If you're going to die, you can always heal and continue the fight against a weakened enemy. This keeps the pace up and exciting. But if you're going to die with medkits, you'll have to change your battle tactics, or go back and start again from an earlier point with different tactics - a test of skill AND creativity. (Although if you insist, you could also scrounge for more medkits and try again against a weakened enemy) This gives you a change of pace now and then, and makes it exciting AND tense.

HEY, that's still not fair to autoheal. True - there's a lot of tactics and planning involved with autoheal. Better yet, you don't HAVE to resort to stealth or anything. Choice is good right? However, if you do wish to choose stealth, you don't have the choice not to regenerate. That doesn't mean stealth isn't fun, it just means there's no tension, and the challenge is reduced if the enemy discovers you. With autoheal, you have choice combat and other strategies, but while combat is still exciting, taking a break from combat immediately removes the tension or sense of urgency. I shouldn't be outrunning my health bar just to maintain a sense of urgency.

I'm really sad that EM chose for regen+cover. It takes away the necessity of different gameplay styles. You shouldn't be forced into one style, true. Unfortunately autoheal makes switching tactics unnecessary and thus unexciting, because it's bias towards direct confrontation affects you when you wish to change tactics, and there's nothing you can do about it (short of loading a savegame to reset the battle).

I was rather hoping for new, unique regen mechanics that would be a departure from the mechanics that are common in recent games.

Much more worrying is that it's starting to look like the devs are designing the game based on flawed reasoning or unfortunate gaming experiences with flawed games, or maybe just their preferred playstyles. Things like "if we implement medkits, then the game will invariably turn into an easter egg hunt." This never happened to me in DX1 because the game was never totally unfair, nor too easy, so that I could always find a way to win so long as I used both my abilities and my brains. The only health I picked up between attacking my enemies and killing them was whatever happened to be at hand. Furthermore, the level design actually encouraged retreating from a direct confrontation after it went wrong - it made finding ways to kill your enemies even more fun than a straightforward confrontation in an 'active battle area' as it were.

I'll still be happy with a regen system, but not with the one they've described so far. If all else fails, I'll just check out the demo and see the rest on youtube and gamefaqs. I think the gameplay won't be anything special, but the rest is still DX.

(Whoa long post... sorry)

PS. I love cover+heal gameplay. But I don't want to be full health again by the time I duck out of the room, climb into the vents and drop some grenades on the poor guys head. If I missed with those grenades, i really should be dead.

[Igoe]

If you start out pure and have a few basic Intro levels and THEN get the plug suit before any real combat, then I can see this working. Kind of like Alex in IW, you HAVE to be augmented in order for some of the plot to work (i.e. the templars hating you for being augmented, Billie rebeling against you) and thus you are forced to install at least ONE biomod before the door in the lab opens to let you progress. If there is actually a subplot of "forced augmentation" and "being a social outcast for something you didn't even choose" (color of skin, hint hint) then I have to say, I like the potential.

[Romeo]

Originally Posted by HouseOfPain

I agree El Bel, it seems mostly to cater to the "Halo 3 idiots".

Well, more like "Gears of War" idiots, because of the cover, and if you can blindfire over cover... (There is no vomiting smiley!)




But that's coming from the developer.

Ask a big bank CEO how his bank is doing, what do you think he'll say? It's Rene's word that the AI is suppose to be pretty advanced, not that I have anything against Rene but seriously.

We're idiots because we enjoy a certain game? Don't get me wrong, I hope Deus Ex 3 is noticably different from Gears of War, but don't call me an idiot because of what I like. I'm not a big fan of japanese cars, but I don't call everyone driving a Honda an idiot.

On topic, I stand by my first opinion in the other thread. I'm not too gung-ho for the idea, but then again, I wasn't for having to stop and fish around for med-packs all day either. There is no perfect system, but as long as this one is done fine, I wont have any problems with it, and it certainly wont ruin the game for me.

[GmanPro]

^^ He could have meant only the Gears of War fans who 'happen' to be idiots, and not all of them. In other words the lowest common denominator of an already simple console-shooter crowd . Face it, there are more dumb people than smart people in any mob, and console mobs, like those who play Gears of War for example, happen to be the biggest video game market out there. So ... that's a lot of stupid people.