Regenerating Health: The Poll, 2.0

[Fig89]

Originally Posted by PlasmaSnake101

It is not being dumbed down, because if you people honestly believe searching for medkits increases the intellectual challenges a game posses, well then your not to bright to begin with.

Taking the bait.

Are you positing the same fallacy that Rene did, that we have no inventory? Or a different fallacy, that the only way to get medkits was to scour the earth for them in random locations?

Did you NEVER use a medbot? Or go to the hospital in Hell's Kitchen and buy a bunch of medkits? Or weigh the morality of killing a doctor or breaking into a medical supply cabinet to further your own existence?

The point here is that when you have medkits, you've got storylines you can build off of them, choices you have to make, items you need to bargain for. This is what DX is about. Determine your own values, and thusly your own play style. Removing this and replacing it with health regen just stupifies the game by removing something that can be used to induce player immersion and thought.

In short, the removal of an element of gameplay that was used very well in DX to immerse the player in the storyline and reality of his environment DOES constitute a dumbing down of the overall game.

[-=fox=-]

DX1 on "hard" isn't actually that hard... at least when it's not your first walkthrough. When you play stealthy, you usually don't need many medkits and there are more than you can carry in the inventory. Those super-intense "survival-withouth-legs"-moments in DX1 are actually very, very rare.

[Blade_hunter]

They decided to add the autoheal and now riots everywhere

[-=fox=-]

Originally Posted by Blade_hunter

They decided to add the autoheal and now riots everywhere

You mean like in Greece or the Banlieues?
Seriously though... I have no intention to engage in any more flame wars about this godforsaken topic. There's nothing constructive coming out of it.

[Viktoria]

Hehe, hot thread!

Why all this disagreement on health regen vs. a medi pack?
Yeah, we know there is the fact that some of you want to 'manage' the situation yourself so that you feel the game is more 'immersive' but, hey, get this.... why not manage everything then in a more realistic way?
That means, play it better, aim, plan, talk, decide, move, THINK better!
Don't get shot or hurt in the first place! Then you won't need to rely on either health regen or a medipack so much, right? Problem solved...
Now, is that proposal realistic enough for you?

[Blade_hunter]

Not exactly but how many threads talk about that ?
Now the forum is a bit more calm, And I prefer that but I'm not happy when I've see the news

[PlasmaSnake101]

Originally Posted by Fig89

DX's system kept you in the action and required no retreat. No Health Regen required. In fact I can think of many instances when the my Regen Aug was not fast enough, so I'd go to inventory and spam a few medkits on my injured body parts in the middle of a fight.

The last bit here implies what I was most worried about. You've intentionally removed any impetus for serious punishment to the player for making a strategically stupid decision. Now all he has to do, no matter how flawed his technique, is keep trying the same thing over and over again, expecting that eventually he will succeed (the definition of idiocy.)

Well, if he does something stupid, at least he can't do something as absurd as
"spam a few medkits." Sounds like you could use an even stronger RegenAug.

Originally Posted by Fig89

You SHOULD have to leave the whole area and re do the mission if you tried to attack a huge amount of enemies without proper technique or supplies. This forces the player to think. Thinking is what we want here, not mindless explosions that looks pretty while pushing 'w' and holding left click.

You make a logical leap, you assume regenerating health removes all concept of strategy. This could not be further from the truth. Call of Duty 4, Halo 3, Gears of War, can all still involve a sense of strategy. And in Deus Ex one you could easily continue being stupid with blind luck and quick save. Or by spamming some medkits

Originally Posted by Fig89

The original DX system had this experience down to an artform. The nervousness you'd find yourself in when you KNEW the only way out of the situation you were stuck in was to do something amazing, or else you'd be gunned down is the best, most intense feeling you can get in gaming. You truly feel connected with your situation.

And if you couldn't pull it off? We'll you'd just reload from the beginning of the level or some point prior. This is why everyone who played DX well saved every 30 seconds lol. Because learning how to tackle a situation is more interesting and enjoyable than just being able to win through hammering the enemy with the same boring technique, knowing you'll just win in the end as long as you don't take a rocket blast to the face.

Again, you think only one combat technique can be practiced while using HealthRegen. Also, a health system in a video game is not an artform, "you were stuck in was to do something amazing, or else you'd be gunned down is the best, most intense feeling you can get in gaming. You truly feel connected with your situation." and this statement can be copy and pasted concerning any game. I forgot how stupid "Portal" was with Health Regeneration.

Originally Posted by Fig89

So, the cover system is the regen system. Great. So now healing has been reduced from making decisions about when to buy medpacks, how many you should carry in comparison to your items, etc to 'Hold C to hide behind cover and regenerate.'

It is no big, life changing decision to pick a medkit up of the ground, stop acting like you're performing brain surgery, you're clicking mouse 2 and opening an inventory menu. Only a fool could think such actions increase the amount of thought in a game.

Originally Posted by Fig89

I'm glad that there do seem to be ways to win the game other than combat, but your 'philosophy' regarding combat is something along the lines of 'just let the player win.' Hardly interesting or worth my time. It also seems like you've axed the inventory system, or banished it from your pool of possible game ideas.

"Hardly interesting or worth my time." If you're such an elite intellectual with such valuable time on your hands, then don't play games, cure cancer. HealthRegen has nothing to do with inventory, you're jumping to conclusions. It won't "just let the player win," if you've played Call of Duty 4 on the highest difficulty get ready for some serious frustration.

[Viktoria]

Originally Posted by Blade_hunter

...but how many threads talk about that ?

No other thread has discussed this point, as far as I know. So, yeah, I'd like to hear if people are up to the challenge, because that is what it is all about, right?.

I intend to play the game like it was for real. So I don't want to be relying on artificial health as much as I possibly don't have to; I want to rely on my intelligence and strategy.
Anyone else?

[AaronJ]

Here is the reality of the health regeneration problem:

Deus Ex had a Regeneration aug. If you did not choose that, you had to seek for medpacks from time to time. It was a choice that affected your games experience. This is just an element of choice crossed off the menu.

[lumpi]

I've been here for... maybe a week, and I've already seen this discussion rotate to always the same conclusions at least 5 times.

Majority of the community dislikes it, moderators put on their most optimistic smiles, repeat.

Personally, I'm done until the developers announce anything new and concrete about the system. That doesn't mean I dislike or discourage the discussion. Quite the opposite, I'd love to see this tumult inspire some consequences on the developer's part, so I don't want to stop it. But I feel like I've written/read/thought everything there is to this topic (which, btw, leads me to the conclusion that regen is a reactionary idea that could be a sign of some rather sterile and flat decisions regarding game mechanics).

May I resist to re-post this post in different wording over and over again. It's tempting, but clearly a waste of time.

[Viktoria]

Originally Posted by lumpi

Majority of the community dislikes it, moderators put on their most optimistic smiles, repeat.

Optimism has nothing to do with it. Try not to see us mods as aliens. We are first and foremost serious gamers just like you and lifelong fans of Deus Ex!

And not too sure about the 'majority' of the community disliking it... the poll has only just started.

[PlasmaSnake101]

Originally Posted by Fig89

In short, the removal of an element of gameplay that was used very well in DX to immerse the player in the storyline and reality of his environment DOES constitute a dumbing down of the overall game.

Because parting with those extra credit or killing a digitized man was a VERY SERIOUS decision I made. I barely could even remember that situation, and the idea of building a game of buying a medkit is ridiculous. Medkits don't make the game fun, I never wandered levels solely to find medkits, but out of the desire to enjoy the game. It doesn't dumb down a game by removing an arbitrary side sequence which has nothing to do with the over all story. I may be wrong, but you could only by a few medkits, only in Hell's Kitchen. So, by that logic, every other level in the game is dumbed down? Of course not.

Originally Posted by jamhaw

.
Actually people have been injured to the point where they cannot walk and they have moved around sometimes for miles to reach a hospital or to compleat their mission.

And of those who go into shock, probably the majority of people, get no mention. Lets say I shoot you in the legs 7 times in the middle of a desert, what's your chances of survival?

[Ashpolt]

So, we got the "more info" so many people were waiting for, and it's just confirmed what we all knew already....and there are still fence sitters. The part that really has me worried is this:

Originally Posted by FAQ Thread

Additionally, the regen system works hand in hand with the cover system for creating and maintaining tension in the game experience. The cover system allows the player to take a few moments to rest and heal, but also to form a strategy before going back into action.

Oh god, it actually is exactly like Gears of War 1&2 / Rainbow Six Vegas 1&2 / Brothers in Arms: Hell's Highway, isn't it? And you know what's curious about those games: they all play exactly the bloody same. This cover / regen health system dominates the gameplay of those games, and I have no reason to assume it won't do so here. I'm actually vastly, vastly less excited about this game now than I was before I read that: at least then I held out some shred of hope that it would be a worthy sequel. Not an f'ing chance now. There is no doubt in my mind that this is actually going to be worse than Invisible War, and far less of a Deus Ex game.

It's a shame this new info's been released right now really, I was really getting into Blade_Hunter's "medigun" idea, and it seemed like so was pretty much everyone else because it appeased both camps. One forum poster has a much better idea than an entire experienced dev team, what does that say about EM?

And one other thing, though I know others have picked up on it already:

Originally Posted by FAQ Thread

In Deus Ex 3, you can have multiple ways to complete an objective, so avoiding combat altogether is often an option to advancing in the game.

OFTEN? You mean always, right?

...Right?

%@#&$.

[Viktoria]

What's wrong with avoiding combat? Sounds cool to me... I don't like combat, I prefer stealth.

[FrankCSIS]

First off, thank you René for giving the explanation and reasoning behind the decision. It doesn't come to a surprise that I am not pleased by it, and that it confirms what we suspected, but I honestly appreciate the information. In the end the decisions are yours, and I suppose so are the consequences. Whatever I have to say next is really only aimed at other posters.

I cannot possibly believe, after everything that's been said on the topic, that there are still people arguing this mechanic we now have a confirmation of does not affect the gameplay, the approach and the immersion of the game. I don't even know where to start with what Plasma said, and am tired of arguing my logic against fallacies based on thin air. I'll just go straight to MyImmortal, who at least brings up points

I intend to play the game like it was for real. So I don't want to be relying on artificial health as much as I possibly don't have to; I want to rely on my intelligence and strategy.

So instead you will rely on Godly health that cures you while you sit in the dark?

Ah but the story provides an explanation, which btw, I totally predicted it would. From what I understand, we're basically hooked to a morphine dispenser that shoots us some good stuff to keep us going. It's not too far-fetched, but the explanation does not remove the gameplay problem it causes.

That means, play it better, aim, plan, talk, decide, move, THINK better!

How is that encouraged by auto-regen? You don't need to aim better, plan better, play better, think or decide better when your health is guaranteed to replenish no matter what you do.

You challenge someone to come up with an immersive explanation that makes sense to the story and yet does not affect the gameplay?

Blade already gave one, which I slightly modified, but I will repeat it here:

Give us a gun with cortisone that can carry a limited amount of health shot every time we start an area. Since we can augment weapons in this game, let us the choice to decide if we invest on augmenting this cortisone gun as well. The fixed amount of health in a level remains an aspect that means you have to think through what you do in a level and how you approach, but eliminates the "scrounging for health packs" so-called problem some of you seem to have. With this, you know right from the start how much health you have, and can only run out if manage it badly, and decide not to augment it.

If you're still too scared that your poor player may die (isn't that the very challenge of a game, not dying?), then you could also put either dispenser to replenish on cortisone shots for a price, or clinics to buy/steal some from. I'm not that much in favor of this aspect, because it makes health too easily available, but I can live with it if it's the compromise you'd be willing to make.

The logical problem behind health regen remains complete with the official approach. It speaks of focusing on gameplay, and yet it removes a gameplay element of the game, which is to manage health and chose your approach according to your available resources.

[Ashpolt]

Originally Posted by MyImmortal

What's wrong with avoiding combat? Sounds cool to me... I don't like combat, I prefer stealth.

Re-read my post. I didn't say anything was wrong with avoiding combat. Quite the opposite, in fact.

[Viktoria]

Originally Posted by FrankCSIS

So instead you will rely on Godly health that cures you while you sit in the dark?

No, I will rely on trying my best not to get hurt in the first place. I'll try to play the game like it was for real.
What difference does it make if I sit in the dark for some auto health, or sit in the dark while I look for a medipack in my inventory?

Neither options are realistic REALLY, are they?

How is that encouraged by auto-regen? You don't need to aim better, plan better, play better, think or decide better when your health is guaranteed to replenish no matter what you do.

It isn't encouraged by auto-gen; any more than its encouraged by having access to a medipack.

This is just my point. It doesn't bother me so much how I get my health in DX3. Because its always going to remain an unrealistic situation.... just as much as consuming a bottle of magic potion.

The only thing that I want from a DX game is EVERYTHING else that has been confirmed in the FAQs thread... so I'm happy.

Originally Posted by Ashpolt

Re-read my post. I didn't say anything was wrong with avoiding combat. Quite the opposite, in fact.

Ooops, my bad. Sorry!

[rhalibus]

Instead of retreating to a previous location to grab/grind/harvest more med packs, the system keeps you in the action.

"In the action"? What is my impetus to retreat and try another tactic other than assault if I can always take cover and stay "in the action"?

In DX1, health was another resource, like ammo or bio-energy: its value added to the complexity of decisions you would make regarding risk and reward. At times you decided in a given situation that the probable loss of health was too much to try an assault; you had to consider other options. This is one of the design choices that gave Deus Ex its immersion.

Making health auto-regenerate is like making ammo auto-regenerate, or bio-energy auto-regenerate, or lock picks auto-regenerate, or give the ability to take back anything bad you said; It dumbs down the complexity in order to keep the player in this somehow magical, sacred state of being "in the action".

If I want to be constantly "in the action", I'll play Quake III.

[FrankCSIS]

o, I will rely on trying my best not to get hurt in the first place. I'll try to play the game like it was for real.
What difference does it make if I sit in the dark for some auto health, or sit in the dark while I look for a medipack in my inventory?

The difference it makes is that one is infinite while the other is finite within an area. That's all the difference in the world.

By your logic, if you want to do your best not to get hurt at all, then the best system to have would be no possibilities of healing at all. You get shot, you bleed, you get shot too much, you die. Period. Reload. I'm all for this, personally, but this is in direct contradiction with what autoregen proposes, and even more difficult than having a fixed amount of health packs. I don't think the industry will go for this anytime soon, quite the opposite in fact.

[Bluey71]

Originally Posted by rhalibus

If I want to be constantly "in the action", I'll play Quake III.

Well said.

This game is becoming another victim of the 'attract a wider audiance' disease. Such a shame.

[PlasmaSnake101]

Originally Posted by FrankCSIS

I cannot possibly believe, after everything that's been said on the topic, that there are still people arguing this mechanic we now have a confirmation of does not affect the gameplay, the approach and the immersion of the game. I don't even know where to start with what Plasma said, and am tired of arguing my logic against fallacies based on thin air. I'll just go straight to MyImmortal, who at least brings up points

Go to hell buddy, why don't you try arguing rather than just ignoring my claims, saying they're "fallacies based on thin air." You're all just being insanely irrational, thinking the game can't be fun without HealthRegen, saying "It's not a Deus Ex game" and "Worse than Invisible War." You are not an authority on what is or what is not a Deus Ex game, it quite obvious, to me at least.

You think Deus Ex's main attraction was the combat? Don't make me laugh, the fighting in Deus Ex was mediocre, nothing revolutionary. What made Deus Ex is what went on outside of the fighting, the story, atmosphere, and decisions. And as far as I can tell, you can still avoid combat in most situations, just like Deus Ex(Anna, Chow, Gunther, Simons, Page, all encounters we could not avoid). Walking around Hong Kong in Deus Ex one with little health was just like walking around with full health, maybe a little slower or faster.

Also I'll stick with healthregen rather than an AnHeroing health gun. Players who already plan and play well will continue doing so. Stop acting like this one feature will destroy the game.

[Viktoria]

Originally Posted by FrankCSIS

The difference it makes is that one is infinite while the other is finite within an area. That's all the difference in the world.

By your logic, if you want to do your best not to get hurt at all, then the best system to have would be no possibilities of healing at all. You get shot, you bleed, you get shot too much, you die. Period. Reload. I'm all for this, personally, but this is in direct contradiction with what autoregen proposes, and even more difficult than having a fixed amount of health packs. I don't think the industry will go for this anytime soon, quite the opposite in fact.

Sure, they could remove it altogether but when I die (I'm sure I will, even though I won't want to ) I've just got to reload again. That would be kind of a waste of time...

As we are having auto-health, my logic just accepts it as an alternative to a medipack in my inventory. No matter how you look at it, both options are not realistic.... so happy to go with either one, myself.

[spyhopping]

I'm no expert on clinical drugs, but surely if Adam is regularly getting doses of morphine he would constantly be high. Plus he'd have an addiction to opiates as well as tobacco!

[Viktoria]

Originally Posted by PlasmaSnake101

You think Deus Ex's main attraction was the combat? Don't make me laugh, the fighting in Deus Ex was mediocre, nothing revolutionary. What made Deus Ex is what went on outside of the fighting, the story, atmosphere, and decisions. And as far as I can tell, you can still avoid combat in most situations, just like Deus Ex(Anna, Chow, Gunther, Simons, Page, all encounters we could not avoid). Walking around Hong Kong in Deus Ex one with little health was just like walking around with full health, maybe a little slower or faster.

Also I'll stick with healthregen rather than an AnHeroing health gun. Players who already plan and play well will continue doing so. Stop acting like this one feature will destroy the game.

I have to agree with this synopsis.

[Ashpolt]

Originally Posted by MyImmortal

Sure, they could remove it altogether but when I die (I'm sure I will, even though I won't want to ) I've just got to reload again. That would be kind of a waste of time...

You know what else is a waste of time? Taking damage and having to hide for a while to heal. Let's just take damage out altogether.

Or taking a side-path which doesn't go directly to your next objective. Let's make it strictly linear.

In fact, walking takes time: let's include auto skip between locations.

In fact, if you're shooting at enemies you might miss, thus wasting time. Let's have the game take over so you always hit.

Ah screw the whole thing, let's just make the game play itself. You'll be done in a couple of hours!