Regenerating Health: The Poll, 2.0

[HouseOfPain]

This is the Regenerating Health thread, 2.0! 2.0 because we just got a pretty major update from Rene and the team regarding Regenerating Health in Deus Ex 3!

The reason that thread 2 exists is because 73 voters, after voting in the first poll, might want to change their opinion, and can do so here.

The poll options are also a little clearer than in the first, with just "Yea, nay and meh" options.

"DX3 takes place about 20 years from now and various militaries are currently experimenting with the beginning of new technology in terms of patching-up wounded soldiers on the battlefield of limiting how much pain they feel when wounded. How far will it advance in 20 years and what will be more realistic at that time? A suit having some kind of repairing ability or morphine injection, or running around looking for a medic or health kit in a bathroom? We already know Adam works for a very advanced firm so who knows what kind of tech they'll have access to.

The dev team wants players to focus on the gameplay challenges and on how they will tackle them. Going with the classic health pack system still forces players to retreat from confrontations and break the flow of the game to look for health packs when they run out of them. Instead of retreating to a previous location to grab/grind/harvest more med packs, the system keeps you in the action. The player is now forced to retreat in a tactical manner if he's in trouble, but he doesn't have to leave the whole area and start over because he was too low on health and stuck somewhere due to that fact. Its purpose is to increase the level of enjoyment of a player and remove all the down-time of back and forth induced by a "get medpack" philosophy. Overall, the team wants the player to stay in the events surrounding him and experience the tension indefinitely.

Additionally, the regen system works hand in hand with the cover system for creating and maintaining tension in the game experience. The cover system allows the player to take a few moments to rest and heal, but also to form a strategy before going back into action. This creates a trial and error system that doesn't require a frustrating reload (from death) which becomes beneficiary to the player. So instead of running out of medpacks from trying different strategies, the player can move back and take cover, regroup, and go at it again until he finds something that suits him.

Deus Ex 3 like its predecessors is about choice and consequences, and the health regen situation, of course, only occurs during combat. In Deus Ex 3, you can have multiple ways to complete an objective, so avoiding combat altogether is often an option to advancing in the game." -René

There you have it guys, the scoop on Regenerating Health. I'm sure that description is enough to start forming an opinion of how you feel about said Regeneration.


Vote and discuss as a reply to the thread!

[El_Bel]

Bull crap. Bull crap. Bull crap.

Dumped down. Dumped down. Dumped down.

Lamest of the lame. Mainstream selling out.

Seriously what the heck..

Moving the question from the first topic here.

You can slowly bleed the enemy unit. Go out kill 2 enemies, hide, regain health, go out and kill again... Is EM working on make this not so easy to happen? Like the guards charge to your position, use grenades etc..

Are we allowed to fire blindly while we use the cover system?

[Jerion]

Originally Posted by El_Bel

Bull crap. Bull crap. Bull crap.

Dumped down. Dumped down. Dumped down.

Lamest of the lame. Mainstream selling out.

Seriously what the heck..

Moving the question from the first topic here.

You can slowly bleed the enemy unit. Go out kill 2 enemies, hide, regain health, go out and kill again... Is EM working on make this not so easy to happen? Like the guards charge to your position, use grenades etc..

Are we allowed to fire blindly while we use the cover system?

Well, the AI is supposed to be pretty advanced.

[HouseOfPain]

I agree El Bel, it seems mostly to cater to the "Halo 3 idiots".

Well, more like "Gears of War" idiots, because of the cover, and if you can blindfire over cover... (There is no vomiting smiley!)

Originally Posted by Mr. K

Well, the AI is supposed to be pretty advanced.

But that's coming from the developer.

Ask a big bank CEO how his bank is doing, what do you think he'll say? It's Rene's word that the AI is suppose to be pretty advanced, not that I have anything against Rene but seriously.

[K^2]

I'd use different words, but El_Bell covered the idea of it.

P.S. Thanks for no-BS options, HoP.

[Viktoria]

As requested, I've closed the original poll now that we have new FAQs.

I've voted for the neutral choice... on the fence.
In consideration of all the absolutely amazing things DX3 is going to offer us, I can definitely live with the health regen system. Plus, there is another subtle hint in the FAQs when it discusses the military and how they fix their soldiers... so I'm feeling positive.

DX3 takes place about 20 years from now and various militaries are currently experimenting with the beginning of new technology in terms of patching-up wounded soldiers on the battlefield of limiting how much pain they feel when wounded. How far will it advance in 20 years and what will be more realistic at that time? A suit having some kind of repairing ability or morphine injection, or running around looking for a medic or health kit in a bathroom? We already know Adam works for a very advanced firm so who knows what kind of tech they'll have access to.

[Jerion]

^^ I'm fence sitting as well. Don't like the idea on paper, but I'll see it in action before I judge.

Originally Posted by HouseOfPain

But that's coming from the developer.

Ask a big bank CEO how his bank is doing, what do you think he'll say? It's Rene's word that the AI is suppose to be pretty advanced, not that I have anything against Rene but seriously.

Maybe, but at this stage who else are you going to hear anything from?

[HouseOfPain]

Originally Posted by Mr. K

Maybe, but at this stage who else are you going to hear anything from?

Right, so take what they say cautiously. If it's a fact like "Regenerating Health will do so and so", I'll buy it. If it's an opinion, or something that I'm only taking their word on, I'll wait and see.

[-=fox=-]

I'm on the fence about it...until I've played the game. Odds are that I am not going to like it but that won't keep me from giving it a fair chance - no matter what other people think about it. What I'm a bit more concerened about are the augs - they actually sound a bit too arcady to me.
Apart from that, the FAQ definitely renewed my anticipation for the game! I really wish I could try it already.

[HouseOfPain]

Originally Posted by -=fox=-

I'm on the fence about it...until I've played the game. Odds are that I am not going to like it but that won't keep me from giving it a fair chance - no matter what other people think about it. What I'm a bit more concerened about are the augs - they actually sound a bit too arcady to me.
Apart from that, the FAQ definitely renewed my anticipation for the game! I really wish I could try it already.

Right! I'm really not a fan at all about the health system, but hearing that there is no multiplayer is actually a plus in my book.

[Jerion]

Renewed mine too Fox.

Originally Posted by HouseOfPain

...hearing that there is no multiplayer is actually a plus in my book.

Ditto.

[HouseOfPain]

Also, off topic, but what's THIS about?

*HACKING/LOCKPICKING*

"...We don't have too much information right now but think of hacking DX3 as almost a Real Time Strategy game where you have your territory that must be defended against the CPU"

o___O??? Huhhhh?

[Viktoria]

Originally Posted by Mr. K

Renewed mine too Fox.
Ditto.

Another ditto from me.

Originally Posted by -=fox=-

...the augs - they actually sound a bit too arcady to me.
Apart from that, the FAQ definitely renewed my anticipation for the game! I really wish I could try it already.

Well, to be fair... the information on augs is very brief; they're not wishing to give us too much detail at this current time. I think augs are going to be much more awesome than they sound.

[gamer0004]

Originally Posted by HouseOfPain

Also, off topic, but what's THIS about?

*HACKING/LOCKPICKING*

"...We don't have too much information right now but think of hacking DX3 as almost a Real Time Strategy game where you have your territory that must be defended against the CPU"

o___O??? Huhhhh?

It's even better:
"Hacking is a major pillar of gameplay in DX3 and is certainly not a mini-game feature like we saw in Bioshock 1."

No mini-game, got it.

"We don't have too much information right now but think of hacking DX3 as almost a Real Time Strategy game where you have your territory that must be defended against the CPU."

Er, a small game within a game... sounds like a mini-game... Oh wait, the devs just thought that a mini-game requires pipes to be a mini-game, just like they thought that a game without any RPG characteristics can be an RPG.

And I'm really not excited about this idea. It sounds like the flash game "defend your desk" or whatever it was called and I like that game, but in Deus Ex?
A. It's bull and doesn't have anything to do with hacking.
B. It might be fun the first time, it may still be the second time, but after that it gets bloody annoying.

[Bluey71]

' Its purpose is to increase the level of enjoyment of a player and remove all the down-time of back and forth induced by a "get medpack" philosophy. Overall, the team wants the player to stay in the events surrounding him and experience the tension indefinitely.'


Oh dear oh dear.

All those posts wondering about the philosophy behind the game design is answered right there. Rene, I wonder if you guys realise you have taken a wrong turn but are too far into development to turn back, or if you simply dont know. Actually I cant imagine which situation would be worse.

You are not making a Deus Ex game at all, you are making some sort of hybrid - it should be a new IP. Right now I'm trying to figure out who your target audiance is - in no way,shape or form is it Deus Ex 1 fans thats for sure - 3rd person elements? self regenerating health? Dx 1 was too slow?

Come on guys, who are you trying to kid?

[Fig89]

EDIT: See my new post below.

[Jerion]

Interestingly enough, the new poll results seem to mimic the results of the old poll.

[facepalm]

Originally Posted by gamer0004

And I'm really not excited about this idea. It sounds like the flash game "defend your desk" or whatever it was called and I like that game, but in Deus Ex?

If it's CnC in cyberspace, EM should just forget about it and bring back the old "hack" button.

But if it's anything like, oh, say Supreme Commander, then you've got me interested.

[Fig89]

I'm gonna do this word by word.

First, we have the canonical incontinuity.

Originally Posted by Rene

"DX3 takes place about 20 years from now and various militaries are currently experimenting with the beginning of new technology in terms of patching-up wounded soldiers on the battlefield of limiting how much pain they feel when wounded.

Pain =/= health but I can see where this is going. At the moment, the proposals (to say nothing of actual prototypes) for this sort of stuff don't really exceed what you have in HL2 with Gordon's HEV suit. It tells you when you're wounded and can inject morphine or some sort of stimulant to keep you going.

On it's face, this is not 'health regeneration,' as the actual physical state of your body is not healed in anyway, its sort of a chemical bandaid to keep you operating at maximum functionality. 99% of existing games do this anyway, they just don't bother to explain it. In most games, if your health is really messed up, there is no impairment of your ability to move aim or shoot, the health number is just close to 0, maybe with some annoying visual effect (COD style throbbing).

In the real world, all a system like this would do is keep you able to aim, move and shoot, as most games do anyway because they do not pay attention to detail. You have to find really cool games like DX if you actually want a somewhat realistic depiction of localized damage to your body impacting your combat efficiency.

Originally Posted by Rene

How far will it advance in 20 years and what will be more realistic at that time? A suit having some kind of repairing ability or morphine injection, or running around looking for a medic or health kit in a bathroom? We already know Adam works for a very advanced firm so who knows what kind of tech they'll have access to.

Oh goody a false option argument. We can apparently only have COD health regen or Medal of Honor/Duke Nukem style 'find a health kit lying on the ground to get health.' Uh, I do believe the concept of an inventory was around during the original DX. You can CARRY medpacks, and use them when you need to. Or have we axed the inventory system in DX3?

As far as 'who knows what they'll have access to,' it logically cannot be anything approaching or exceeding DX's abilities, or else we're not existing in the same universe. If the flow of technology advancement hasn't done any loop-de-loops (which it shouldn't have according to existing DX canon), then we expect the pinnacle of health regen to be first available in 2052, when we see JC's health regen nano-augmentation. Making health regenerative technology set 25 years before hand just creates a gigantic continuity gap.

Originally Posted by Rene

The dev team wants players to focus on the gameplay challenges and on how they will tackle them. Going with the classic health pack system still forces players to retreat from confrontations and break the flow of the game to look for health packs when they run out of them. Instead of retreating to a previous location to grab/grind/harvest more med packs, the system keeps you in the action. The player is now forced to retreat in a tactical manner if he's in trouble, but he doesn't have to leave the whole area and start over because he was too low on health and stuck somewhere due to that fact.

Regarding the medkit system forcing you to retreat to find medkits... uh no, it doesn't. Not if you have an inventory.

DX's system kept you in the action and required no retreat. No Health Regen required. In fact I can think of many instances when the my Regen Aug was not fast enough, so I'd go to inventory and spam a few medkits on my injured body parts in the middle of a fight.

The last bit here implies what I was most worried about. You've intentionally removed any impetus for serious punishment to the player for making a strategically stupid decision. Now all he has to do, no matter how flawed his technique, is keep trying the same thing over and over again, expecting that eventually he will succeed (the definition of idiocy.)

You SHOULD have to leave the whole area and re do the mission if you tried to attack a huge amount of enemies without proper technique or supplies. This forces the player to think. Thinking is what we want here, not mindless explosions that looks pretty while pushing 'w' and holding left click.

Originally Posted by Rene

Its purpose is to increase the level of enjoyment of a player and remove all the down-time of back and forth induced by a "get medpack" philosophy. Overall, the team wants the player to stay in the events surrounding him and experience the tension indefinitely.

The original DX system had this experience down to an artform. The nervousness you'd find yourself in when you KNEW the only way out of the situation you were stuck in was to do something amazing, or else you'd be gunned down is the best, most intense feeling you can get in gaming. You truly feel connected with your situation.

And if you couldn't pull it off? We'll you'd just reload from the beginning of the level or some point prior. This is why everyone who played DX well saved every 30 seconds lol. Because learning how to tackle a situation is more interesting and enjoyable than just being able to win through hammering the enemy with the same boring technique, knowing you'll just win in the end as long as you don't take a rocket blast to the face.

Originally Posted by Rene

Additionally, the regen system works hand in hand with the cover system for creating and maintaining tension in the game experience. The cover system allows the player to take a few moments to rest and heal, but also to form a strategy before going back into action.

So, the cover system is the regen system. Great. So now healing has been reduced from making decisions about when to buy medpacks, how many you should carry in comparison to your items, etc to 'Hold C to hide behind cover and regenerate.'

Originally Posted by Rene

This creates a trial and error system that doesn't require a frustrating reload (from death) which becomes beneficiary to the player. So instead of running out of medpacks from trying different strategies, the player can move back and take cover, regroup, and go at it again until he finds something that suits him.

No it doesn't create a trial and error system, it reinforces stupid tactics. Now as long as you have a tiny piece of cover to hide behind, you will eventually win. It's that simple. If a player finds reloading from death 'frustrating,' all you've done is catered this game to a bunch of morons with ADD. Sure it's frustrating to die, but the enjoyment in a game coms in figuring out how to do it right. With such simple game mechanics, nearly any strategy can win given some patience. Thus, you've destroyed any incentive for the player to think by handing a game that almost cannot be lost. We might as well be given a circle and told to draw a box in it. As long as it has 4 sides, we win! YAY!

Originally Posted by Rene

Deus Ex 3 like its predecessors is about choice and consequences, and the health regen situation, of course, only occurs during combat. In Deus Ex 3, you can have multiple ways to complete an objective, so avoiding combat altogether is often an option to advancing in the game.[/B]" -René

'Only occurs during combat' just means we'll have to learn to hide behind cover while there is one enemy left, regen our health, then kill him without taking damage.

I'm glad that there do seem to be ways to win the game other than combat, but your 'philosophy' regarding combat is something along the lines of 'just let the player win.' Hardly interesting or worth my time. It also seems like you've axed the inventory system, or banished it from your pool of possible game ideas.

[K^2]

Originally Posted by Mr. K

Interestingly enough, the new poll results seem to mimic the results of the old poll.

New poll has clear cut options, which reinforce point of regeneration opponents. Proponents of regen were trying to make it sound like these who voted for 4/5 options were actually ok with the regen. This poll gives clear yes, clear no, and the "meh" option. Neither the 'yes' nor 'no' people are split.

Overwhelming majority is definitely against the idea. About half of that number don't care or aren't sure about it. These who actually think it is a good idea are a clear minority.

There is no twisting or spinning this. Community is set against health regeneration.

[WhatsHisFace]

Regenerating health is not as bad as "Metal Gear Stealth" but it's still a big problem.

[K^2]

Originally Posted by Fig89

The original DX system had this experience down to an artform. The nervousness you'd find yourself in when you KNEW the only way out of the situation you were stuck in was to do something amazing, or else you'd be gunned down is the best, most intense feeling you can get in gaming. You truly feel connected with your situation.

And if you couldn't pull it off? We'll you'd just reload from the beginning of the level or some point prior. This is why everyone who played DX well saved every 30 seconds lol. Because learning how to tackle a situation is more interesting and enjoyable than just being able to win through hammering the enemy with the same boring technique, knowing you'll just win in the end as long as you don't take a rocket blast to the face.

This is really all that needs to be said about the very idea of regen. Well put. I should probably bookmark the link to that post so that I can just reference it whenever anyone comes up with a new pro-regen argument.

[Fig89]

Originally Posted by WhatsHisFace

Regenerating health is not as bad as "Metal Gear Stealth" but it's still a big problem.

I dunno lol. Both elements were SO important to the original DX. It's really sad lol. The first thing that caught my eye about DX was my friend telling me it has this really cool health system, then I started playing the game, got hooked, and beat it like 3 times before he finished the ocean labs.

But yeah, the general, big picture here does appear to be that the DX3 devs are making the same fundamental mistake that the DX2 devs did, and that is that DX needs to be dumb-downed or streamlined, when what is truly needed is the opposite. I'd love to see a health system that was more complicated that a health pack system, where your medical skill actually came into play.

With a low medical skill, you basically only know how to bandage yourself, but with high medical skill, you could set a broken bone, pop a limb out of dislocation, properly care for a burn wound, etc. More elaborate medical procedures could require a more extensive range of items, but you'd never need to pay a doctor for anything, you'd just need to pay for the supplies.

[PlasmaSnake101]

Originally Posted by HouseOfPain

I agree El Bel, it seems mostly to cater to the "Halo 3 idiots".

I guess I'm border line retarded, I happen to like Halo 3 you jerk. Anyway, I'm sure it won't affect gameplay too much. If wandering around for medkits and soda is the only thing you remember from Deus Ex I, then you were doing it wrong. A health system, to me at least, is not a deal breaker. The gameplay will still be enjoyable, the levels vast, story interesting. The only difference is that I don't have to hit F7 anymore.

It is not being dumbed down, because if you people honestly believe searching for medkits increases the intellectual challenges a game posses, well then your not to bright to begin with.

Sorry to be so blunt, but Jesus, you people have been whining none stop about localized damage. "Oh, I want to crawl on the floor when my legs get blow off!" If your legs were injured to the point where you can't walk, your going to be in too much pain to keep moving around. Localized damage was cool, but it was just another health bar for me to fill up, I didn't spend much time without arms and legs.

So, get some Johnson Baby Shampoo and get over it!
^Get it! No More Tears! Maddox reference.

But seriously, quit your *ing Nancy!

[jamhaw]

I don't see why they don't do it like it was done in the Penumbra games (probably because they didn't play the Penumbra games ) There are health packs (well painkillers in those games but in DX should be med or health packs) and regenerating health. The health packs are pretty much useless on easy as you heal really quickly but are very valuable on normal as regenerating health takes forever. That could appease both groups somewhat.

Originally Posted by PlasmaSnake101

Sorry to be so blunt, but Jesus, you people have been whining none stop about localized damage. "Oh, I want to crawl on the floor when my legs get blow off!" If your legs were injured to the point where you can't walk, your going to be in too much pain to keep moving around. !

Actually people have been injured to the point where they cannot walk and they have moved around sometimes for miles to reach a hospital or to compleat their mission.