Actual and Potential Infinity

[STM]

If this has been done, you have my apologies. Please tell me so I can delete this thread. Thankyou.

Here's something for you guys to mull over...

Do you believe that we live in a Potential Infinite Universe or a Actual Infinite Universe?

Defintions

Infinity - (1) Without an 'end'. (2) Without a 'beginning' or an 'end'.

Example: Space is believed to be infinite by a number of people.

Actual Infinity - Hardest to define. Basically this means that we already live in a infinite universe. There's an infinite number of things and whatever you "add" or "subtract" you get the same result: infinity.

Example: A library full of an infinite amount of books. You can take as many books out or put as many in but you still get the same "number" of books: Infinite.

Potential Infinity - Pretty basic. We can keep adding to it so we can have infinity but never achieve infinty.

Example: Dates/Times that can continue pontentially to infinity.


I would be suprised if there are more votes for Actual Infinity than there is for Potential since I suspect that most (90% perhaps) of people here will say they live in a Potential Infinite Universe. I also belive that we live in a Potentially Infinite Universe but I will be arguing for Actual Infinity, which many philosophers have said, is illogical.

...If you guys don't like Philosophy then just let this thread die, but you might find this interesting to mull over for about 10 minutes. Also I would appreciate a good deep discussion from this site.

Thankyou for reading.

[theBlackman]

Not to stop the thought before it starts, but We live in a finite "infinity".

You are born, you exist for a span of "time" you die. Your "living" has ended. Ergo "our" infinity is Finite.

To steal a quote:
City of El Toro
County of Orange
State of California
United States of America
Continent of North America
Northern Hemisphere
Planet Earth
Galaxy
Universe
Mind of (insert your diety, if any here)

[STM]

Originally posted by theBlackman
Not to stop the thought before it starts, but We live in a finite "infinity".

You are born, you exist for a span of "time" you die. Your "living" has ended. Ergo "our" infinity is Finite.

Which basically sums up to Potential Infinity and Other since the concept of time and space still presents you a Infinity even if you are finite within that infinity. However how do you know we are really finite? Living might not be finite and we might be "living" in infinity (um yup, it's to do parellel universes...).

[Data]

Logically the answer must be hypothetical, since personal perception should be part of the equation, and everyone will judge this from a different viewpoint.

[theBlackman]

As this is a philosophic point, I shall stop pulling your leg.

With all the differing religious, science oriented and just plain productions from a "fevered mind" (manical if you will).

This has the potential to become a Flame oriented topic. Depending on ones religious or other views based on blind faith, the concept of Infinite (rebirth-Bhuddism/Amerind and others. Paradise/hell- Islam/Christian/shinto) has its proponents.

To those of no true faith, but with questions as to who, what, where, there is the "we have discovered another galaxy to add to our universe" group.

Personally, I am of neither. I am! Where I am an how I got there is of no importance to me. Where I go (if I go) is likewise of no consequence. I'll deal with that as I can if I need to.

Infinity in Space, Time, or quantity I accept as without beginning or end.

The ideal or concept of Parralell Universes (infinities) is a fun mental exercise, but merely that.

I chose a certain action out of three choices I had. Did that change my life? Of course. I would be other than I am and elsewhere if I had chosen differently.

Is there a few hundred -or thousand or million- of me milling around in a similar quantity of universes, generating their own quantities of parralells to the parralells? I don't know and frankly if none of them show up and bite me it is of no interest or consequence to my here and now.

tBM gets off his soapbox, and picks up his guitar and walks off to find a quiet corner in which to compose a new song.

[STM]

To Data: Yup it is. Thats why I just want your opinions and votes on the matter. The great thing is nothing can be considered trully wrong or right, but you can hold a debate. Just depends on what you want to believe. For example, Actual Infinity, like many philosphers have stated; illogical. So can you use logic to argue against an Actual Infinity? Not really, especially if your logic will mainly come from human concepts such as the flow of time and "human metaphors". In Actual Infinity you are arguing for something beyond human experience/logic.

As you can see I just said several silly things which is pretty much the point I was trying to get at. You can't really use logic to argue against the illogical when it comes to Actual Infinity which is, well, silly.

EDIT: Sorry. Going to duoble post.

[STM]

Originally posted by theBlackman
As this is a philosophic point, I shall stop pulling your leg.

hehe, my thanks.

This has the potential to become a Flame oriented topic. Depending on ones religious or other views based on blind faith, the concept of Infinite (rebirth-Bhuddism/Amerind and others. Paradise/hell- Islam/Christian/shinto) has its proponents.

If it does I will close it. This isn't specifically about religion but I can see how it can be. Since I gave the basic definitions in my first post I am pretty much hoping that this shouldn't really be taken as seriously as opposing two religion points of view. When it flames, I will close. Until then I will just have to restate that as this thread hopefully continues.

Personally, I am of neither. I am! Where I am an how I got there is of no importance to me. Where I go (if I go) is likewise of no consequence. I'll deal with that as I can if I need to.

You sound first like a Buddhist but your beliefs after make you sound like the typical joe of the world. You almost sound exactly like me. I hold several Buddhist beliefs (but do not believe in reincarnation) and I don't concentrate on the "Hows" and "Whens" which is why I also don't believe (or care) about God/god(s). I just want to live a "good" (good being my own definition of good and how I perceive life that is, not your general "religious good" type) life and die. Pretty simple but I like it.

Infinity in Space, Time, or quantity I accept as without beginning or end.

The ideal or concept of Parralell Universes (infinities) is a fun mental exercise, but merely that.

I chose a certain action out of three choices I had. Did that change my life? Of course. I would be other than I am and elsewhere if I had chosen differently.

Is there a few hundred -or thousand or million- of me milling around in a similar quantity of universes, generating their own quantities of parralells to the parralells? I don't know and frankly if none of them show up and bite me it is of no interest or consequence to my here and now.

tBM gets off his soapbox, and picks up his guitar and walks off to find a quiet corner in which to compose a new song.

Ah, but to someone who believes in Actual Infinity being our Universe parallel Universes is a very good point to make for the proving of an Actual Infinty be it through "mirrors" or otherwise. This "mental exercise" might actually be true. There are already scientific theories supporting this, especially with relations to the Big Bang theory aswell as Quantum Mechanics which have yet to be fully delved into (but what is?). We could have proven that matter can exist without cause (the "could" being that we have no real way to confirm it being without cause right now)

And like your own personal beliefs about this, I actually wouldn't really give a hoot myself (like the millions or billions of others I suspect). If there are parallel universes and it is proven it will effect me very little, but that isn't the point. I respect your unsubscribed beliefs about this subject but I do hope you will continue posting about this subject. Who knows? We might just get interested and will be effected...

[staticon]

I had to vote for something else. I do not believe in infinity. Infinity is merely a term applied to numbers, distances or quantities of such great magnitude (or minutiae) that the mind cannot grasp.
I believe that all things are finite, all things are quantifiable once the mind has been trained to comprehend them.

[Data]

Conclusion=ad infinitum*perception

[theBlackman]

STM, the potential for a rousing but friendly romp through the minds of the members is here. Let's hope it remains friendly throughout.

I am reminded of a Sci-Fi story I read many years ago. The name of the author eludes me for which same I apologize.

The gist of the story is: A city is suddenly being devastated. A gigantic column, uncounted mile high and wide, that has at its base an adamantine blade, is gouging huge trenches through the city and its surrounds.

Turns out to be a fingernail scratching an itch on the arm of a giant. The city is a member of a microcosmic universe of which the arm is the "earth' for the city.

As has been said: (paraphrased) fleas have fleas that have fleas that have fleas.

So on a sub atomic level "our" universe could be the atoms in the atoms in the atoms of someones armpit.

[STM]

Not to do a Matrix but your mind isn't suppose to comprehend infinity which (*sigh*) many religious people will definitely agree with me upon since infinity (such as God) is incomprehensible. Infinity is basically the concept of the incomprehensible... if that doesn't make sense to you then you're on the same boat I am. No but seriously if you fix all your opinions using finite minds to a potential or actual infinity then you can not expect to comprehend it. Damn I sound like a Buddhist... or physcologist. I sincerely hope not.

To theBlackman: And that is relevant to the topic because... Anyways it's still the same "universe" no matter the relative size. It's a silly Sci-Fi movie no doubt since the 'nail' would have to very small respectively if our worlds are implied to be "sub-atomic".

...You know, I was thinking this will be your simple "which one is more possible: Actual or Potential" discussion thing, but it turns out to be more complex... which isn't a bad thing mind... just not what I expected. Gotta sleep. (I live on the other side of the world)

[theBlackman]

Sleep well.

Originally posted by STM
...You know, I was thinking this will be your simple "which one is more possible... ...but it turns out to be more complex... which isn't a bad thing mind... just not what I expected...

To use the "Old Chinese" phrase. "Be careful what you ask for. You might get it.

[Naja]

(Wow. This is new, to me at least. A lot of cool thoughts here I agree with... but as I finished reading I became more undecided. Oh well. The only other complicated - for me - topic that I've participated in before was about time. But I don't wanna go there. Anyway, I also hope this thread continues; and when I figure out what I believe, I'll post later.)

[Driber]

Originally posted by Drexel
Where does the universe end?

...and if there is an end, what's behind it?

[DaveJ]

Originally posted by Drexel
Where does the universe end?

Who cares?....As long as I get some trim.

I go with option 5...Drexel's choice.


Didn't The Last Frustration once come up with a brilliantly novel way of describing all this?

Well I believe that the universe is a sphere like earth . And a sphere has no end nor beginning . Thus the universe will never seem to come to an end . But if you go around it you will end up in the same place . As for parallal universes , I dont believe in them .

[STM]

Originally posted by Power reaver
Well I believe that the universe is a sphere like earth . And a sphere has no end nor beginning . Thus the universe will never seem to come to an end . But if you go around it you will end up in the same place . As for parallal universes , I dont believe in them .

So you are saying the Universe is "on" the "surface" of that sphere? There is an 'end' then: Inside the sphere, and the boundary of the sphere to the outside. Question: Is the shpere 'growing' (Potential Infinity) or has it achieved a real boundary?

Parallel Universes is almost as confusing as the Time Paradox's around. There is actually no real reason not to believe them. It's the simple theory that for every thing we do there is something totally different we are doing in another Universe parallel to ours but not quite the same. Even having ones mirrior ours to exactly certain points and achieve a infinite number, thus having an Actual Infinity where even the Library with the infinite number of books is a possiblity.

theBlackMan: Thanks mate!



(I really should have put a "Who Cares?" Option eh? No wait... "Who Cares?" is a philosophical statement in its own right! Hah, you guys are asking "Who cares?" when you are actually caring about the subject... or not. *Flees*)

[projo]

spherical means just that.

You are attempting to understand spherical in terms of 2 and 3 dimensions.

In 2 dimensions then : does a circle have an end? or a beginning?

If you include more dimensions, as in some of the explanations of String Theory that have (what?. . . 9 dimensions? 13 dimensions?)
then you have to be able to understand what that means, and not interpret that or try to relate that to 2, 3, or 4 dimensions.

Actually, I believe that debate on the nature of infinity is pointless, since it is an interesting but ultimately unproveable concept.