"THE HIVE" - Introduce Yourself In Here - & Random CHAT Thread

[Dr Bob]

Originally Posted by salavace

I've played the beta and was wondering if anyone else had experienced performance issues of any kind? Audio issues, choppy frame rates, etcetera? I had some minor choppiness in the game, mostly outdoors in the hubworld (Detroit). What about everyone else?

Choppy framerates when I'm sprinting in the hub, but I can forgive that.

[Pinky_Powers]

Originally Posted by Jerion

That would have meant precisely nothing. The community managers, who were paid to come and talk to this community, gave us this assurance over and over and nobody who was terribly vocal seemed to believe them. I myself went up to the studio on multiple occasions, talked with the fellows, came back and assured the community that they were watching. It had precisely zero effect. I cannot believe, after taking part in and serving this community for over three years, that two years ago a simple post such as Frank's would have made a jot of difference.

This community has earned itself a reputation for desiring results and actions over words. This is not necessarily a bad reputation to have, but it certainly didn't help matters back then. Now, I think it's an excellent reputation to have because when the game finally did show itself to the public (intentionally or not), people were duly impressed. Actions louder than words, friend. Actions louder than words.

Edit: Also, before somebody inevitably comes along to critically respond to my little piece, please refrain from fisking. It's a terrible practice and a simple paragraph break does not give you license to separate the statements.

Well said, and I agree one hundred percent.

As to Frank's response, it is indeed nice to hear, but I just can't agree with his claim that it's all just good game design. That's what they felt in their hearts about Invisible War too. "Good game design" is not a universal construct. It's subjective to the type of game you're trying to make. Stripping-down and simplifying a game like Deus Ex does not serve it the same way it might for a game like Halo.

And while I am terribly pleased with Human Revolution so far, there are a few deliberate design choices that run counter to the principle philosophies.
Why keep the Inventory and do away with limb-damage? Why keep weapon mods but remove melee weapons? Why produce so few physics objects yet emphasize the player's interaction with the physical world?

I don't care how often you repeat to yourself the Invisible War mantra, it's not all Good Game Design. Sometimes you make dumb choices when you lose sight of the mission statement.

[TrickyVein]

God-damn-it my beer is warm I hate that*

*excuse me, just taking a break from the martial law thread.

[Ashpolt]

Originally Posted by Pinky_Powers

As to Frank's response, it is indeed nice to hear, but I just can't agree with his claim that it's all just good game design. That's what they felt in their hearts about Invisible War too. "Good game design" is not a universal construct. It's subjective to the type of game you're trying to make. Stripping-down and simplifying a game like Deus Ex does not serve it the same way it might for a game like Halo.

And while I am terribly pleased with Human Revolution so far, there are a few deliberate design choices that run counter to the principle philosophies.
Why keep the Inventory and do away with limb-damage? Why keep weapon mods but remove melee weapons? Why produce so few physics objects yet emphasize the player's interaction with the physical world?

I don't care how often you repeat to yourself the Invisible War mantra, it's not all Good Game Design. Sometimes you make dumb choices when you lose sight of the mission statement.

This is pretty much exactly how I feel (though I would probably have taken 1500 words to say it, so thanks for saving my time, Pinky!) They've created a great game with DXHR, but they haven't by any means created a flawless one, and some of the changes they've introduced are definitely not positive. I hope they have the humility to realise that, so that the inevitable DX4 can be even better.

[Pretentious Old Man.]

Sorry to be cynical, but DX4 will probably be a Square Enix-led ultra-simplified cash-in to save that company from certain bankruptcy. Look what they've done to Final Fantasy. (Preview material for Hitman Subtitle doesn't fill me with confidence either, incidentally). I'd love to be wrong, but that strikes me as the financial reality of the situation.

Also, Tricky you bounder, beer is supposed to be warm! (well, room temperature)

[TrickyVein]

...yuck. Not a hoppy-IPA. Not like this it aint.

[Pinky_Powers]

Originally Posted by Pretentious Old Man.

Also, Tricky you bounder, beer is supposed to be warm! (well, room temperature)

Beer is supposed to be cold. End of.

[lol]

Originally Posted by Pretentious Old Man.

Sorry to be cynical, but DX4 will probably be a Square Enix-led ultra-simplified cash-in to save that company from certain bankruptcy. Look what they've done to Final Fantasy. (Preview material for Hitman Subtitle doesn't fill me with confidence either, incidentally). I'd love to be wrong, but that strikes me as the financial reality of the situation.

Also, Tricky you bounder, beer is supposed to be warm! (well, room temperature)

Oh god please no.

Honestly,anything Square touches turns to garbage for some reason.I guess Thief might be the last "good" eidos game to come out.

But there is always Arkane and I still have Dishonored to look forward to

[JCpie]

All drinks are meant to be cold. End of end.

[TrickyVein]

Not a coffee drinker, are we?

The black-gold-elixir of the morning must be hot, very hot. Each and every morning and evening and anywhere in-between.

[Pinky_Powers]

Originally Posted by Ashpolt

This is pretty much exactly how I feel (though I would probably have taken 1500 words to say it, so thanks for saving my time, Pinky!)

I've been experimenting with saying more with less.

Anyway, I'd like to expound on that last part I wrote...

Originally Posted by Pinky_Powers

Sometimes you make dumb choices when you lose sight of the mission statement.

Take Dishonored as an example. I read (think it was PC Gamer's recent preview) one of the Devs talking about possessing animals. The question came up, "can you possess fish?" The answer was Yes, though he couldn't think of any tactical reason why you would want to. "So why can you possess fish?" they asked. Because it wouldn't make sense if you couldn't.

This is the sort of design you get when a studio keeps the mission statement firm in their minds. Which, by the way, is nearly the exact same mission statement that founded the first Deus Ex. If you hold tight the principles of the title, then your pursuit of GGD will strengthen your title, not hurt it.

[SladeTeck]

Originally Posted by TrickyVein

Not a coffee drinker, are we?

The black-gold-elixir of the morning must be hot, very hot. Each and every morning and evening and anywhere in-between.

I'm a stickler for the classic black, and black. At least when it comes to coffee, have to have it the good ol' Army way. On certain days I will add sugar and creamer, that's far and few between though. Holidays generally.

[TrickyVein]

I am of the opinion that if you must have those things (creamer and sugar) then you don't really like the taste of the bean. The stronger the better!

Those Starbucks frappuccinos are pretty good though...

[NKD]

Originally Posted by TrickyVein

I am of the opinion that if you must have those things (creamer and sugar) then you don't really like the taste of the bean. The stronger the better!

Cheap coffee requires a lot of junk in it to mask the terrible taste so that you can get your caffeine fix.

[SladeTeck]

Originally Posted by TrickyVein

I am of the opinion that if you must have those things (creamer and sugar) then you don't really like the taste of the bean. The stronger the better!

Those Starbucks frappuccinos are pretty good though...

Yeah, I like those, call me fruity but I like the Strawberries and Creme one. Especially good on a hot day like today.

My grandfather had it black, always. Occasionally with a hint of whiskey or scotch. He earned it though, going through WWII and seeing what he saw.

Originally Posted by NKD

Cheap coffee requires a lot of junk in it to mask the terrible taste so that you can get your caffeine fix.

This is terribly true. Used to have that kind of stuff at work, BLECH.

[Snake04]

Ah so nice to unwind in such a cool club after reading on how to stab lady gaga could i get an ice cold soda

[alanschu]

New poster here.
EDIT: Sorry it's a wall of text. I like to come in with a bang haha.

Deus Ex is probably still one of my favourite (arguably THE favourite) games of all times, and there's so many positive memories of the game for me today that I can still easily pick it up in spite of its flaws.

I'm also someone that wasn't terribly outraged at the decisions made for Invisible War. I just opted to not play it (although I'm playing through it now just because I'm geeked up on Deus Ex).

Followed this game loosely until recently, hoping it'd be a good game, and from what I've heard so far it sounds very promising. I've been lurking the past few weeks and decided to make an account. Be gentle :P

I did want to chime in towards Pinky Powers recent post though as it got me thinking.

Why keep the Inventory and do away with limb-damage? Why keep weapon mods but remove melee weapons? Why produce so few physics objects yet emphasize the player's interaction with the physical world?

I've had this discussion with other Deus Ex fans (along with health regen which I'm sure has been beaten to death on these boards already...) about things like this. And it made me really look back and critically assess some of the aspects of Deus Ex.

Now I'm not usually someone that feels that strong of an attachment to particular game mechanics. Some aspects that I highly value for a Deus Ex game are:

- Choice: The ability to approach the current problem from a variety of angles
- Story: A cool technopunk storyline with its share of conspiracy theories being bandied about. Who can I trust!?
- Personal growth elements (i.e. the RPG elements). Augmentations, xp, skill points, whatever you want to call them. I'd like to grow my character in such a way that it helps enable my decisions for the Choice aspect.

I mention all this so people know where I'm coming from. If someone feels health regen makes it "unDeus Ex-like" that's their prerogative. But Pinky's posts reminds me of a discussion I had a while back regarding the health regen, and the bizarre angle the other poster took to defend his elements.

For instance: Why no limb damage?
As I was reading it, I thought back to Deus Ex and asked myself "Why limb damage?" Did it really add much to the game? I know what mechanics it affected (death/poor aim/slow moving). I struggle to find myself defining this as being a critical part of the Deus Ex experience. In other words, I don't think I'd think less of the game had it not been included. What I loved about Deus Ex was not really the health system. It was neat and novel at the time, but given I pretty much always had full medpacks it was basically a non-issue for me (I played on realistic). I'd just patch them up. The only aspect I can really see it "benefiting" me is that it meant I could survive sniper shots if they hit my arm or leg.

As for missing melee weapons, I think the biggest reason for that is Jensen is able to do something that JC never was able to do... interact with his enemies without a weapon. Looking back it seems kind of silly that a JC with no items at all is effectively a JC that cannot do anything to fight back. I guess his nano-augs preclude him from punching? However I can see this being unfortunate because from my somewhat limited understanding of Jensen's abilities, I don't know if he's able to engage in melee attacks or just the stealth takedowns (i.e. with the upper hand). If Jensen isn't able to engage in hand to hand combat, then it's disappointing because it removes a choice from the player.

Your last point is very valid though. I never did play the leak or anything like that so I can only assume you have and that it's not as potent as Deus Ex's.

As for "why inventory?" I see it as being a kind of core concept for resource management. Limit how much the player can carry, and you force him to make choices. Why "weapon mods?" Weapon mods are an extension of character development in my eyes, and help facilitate choice as well. The weapons you choose to modify extend the capabilities of your character and help go down the play style you are actively pursuing.


Just to summarize, I don't mean to call you out on this. What makes Deus Ex awesome to each of us is a subjective thing. It's just that the examples you put out matched up so perfectly with things that I see as being contributory to the core concepts I love about Deus Ex, and concepts that didn't really strike me as being core. It reminded me a lot of a discussion I had regarding health regen, where a poster was so persistent on its addition being a detriment to the game that he literally said that an example of a strong gameplay mechanic is hunting for medkits. I found it kind of silly and disagreed, and it gave me the impression that he more felt it was a positive contribution because it was in Deus Ex and he loved Deus Ex.

While I don't feel health regen really adds or takes away too much from the game, I do admit that I wished the original Deus Ex had a slow energy regen (on top of the batteries). I always found myself restricting the use of some very awesome augs because I always perceived the energy stores as being too restrictive (they really weren't in hindsight, but in 2000 that's how I felt lol). Even in spite of having a ton of batteries haha.


I don't think DEHR is going to have as big of an impact as the original, but I am excited for it. I'm expecting it to be a flawed game, but really so is Deus Ex (it's always a bit embarrassing when I talk someone up how awesome the game is and then they see the AI on Liberty Island... lol).

Later.

[tZer]

DX:HR is no doubt a terrific game, having played the leak, and one of the best games in recent years, but I actually would have liked limb damage. Considering it does make an impact on enemies (shooting them in the legs can cause them to trip and fall over, etc.) I would have liked if being hit causes similar reactions. But looking at the whole thing, it is only a minor thing.

[alanschu]

Originally Posted by tZer

DX:HR is no doubt a terrific game, having played the leak, and one of the best games in recent years, but I actually would have liked limb damage. Considering it does make an impact on enemies (shooting them in the legs can cause them to trip and fall over, etc.) I would have liked if being hit causes similar reactions. But looking at the whole thing, it is only a minor thing.

Hmmm, I don't remember the enemies reacting to limb damage in Deus Ex.

Probably because my innate headshot skills are too honed...

[Gaughranorama]

The enemies didn't but JC did. It's one of the things I'm most disappointed with. Knackering your legs in the first game forced you to really avoid confrontations and rethink your situation. Having said that I haven't played the leak so maybe it won't be such a pisser...

[alanschu]

Originally Posted by Gaughranorama

The enemies didn't but JC did. It's one of the things I'm most disappointed with. Knackering your legs in the first game forced you to really avoid confrontations and rethink your situation. Having said that I haven't played the leak so maybe it won't be such a pisser...

See, I absolutely did not get that impression from Deus Ex. When I look back and critically assess it, I really struggle coming up with what sort of tactical/strategic/any differences really occurred because limb damage existed, and wouldn't have existed if limb damage didn't exist.

It really just sort of boiled down to having a bit of "extra health" and I'd find myself occasionally going "oh dammit why couldn't that sniper have hit me in the arm instead of 1 shotting me to death."

I don't mean to be abrasive, but I wouldn't mind discussing it a bit more in depth because I usually find the defenses to be a bit generic in their explanation that doesn't make much of a difference. Maybe it's just something I can't understand, but I'm game for the discussion.

[Angel-A]

^ I kinda agree
The limb damage in DX1, to me, really was more about the difference between lethal and non-lethal damage (yay). As opposed to thinking more about what you're going to do so as to not be hit.

[Ashpolt]

Originally Posted by alanschu

See, I absolutely did not get that impression from Deus Ex. When I look back and critically assess it, I really struggle coming up with what sort of tactical/strategic/any differences really occurred because limb damage existed, and wouldn't have existed if limb damage didn't exist.

It really just sort of boiled down to having a bit of "extra health" and I'd find myself occasionally going "oh dammit why couldn't that sniper have hit me in the arm instead of 1 shotting me to death."

...And, as with many things in this situation, the appropriate response there would've been to look at how to improve the mechanic, not to scrap it entirely.

[EricaLeeVee]

Originally Posted by JCpie

All drinks are meant to be cold. End of end.

I agree...but I also live in a place that is blazing hot all the time.


Where we drink our tea dark and cold...madness.

[iloveyouXWORLD]

Originally Posted by Ashpolt

...And, as with many things in this situation, the appropriate response there would've been to look at how to improve the mechanic, not to scrap it entirely.

too much scrapping....too much dumbing down