Philosophy & Intellectual Aspects of DX3 (UPDATE: Wrters Discussed)

[Slack]

I would like to suggest to put more philosophy in DX3, it was amazing in DX1, but in DX2 it almost never exist. I would like to suggest too Nietzsche as a good philosopher in opposition of non-individualistic society... and because he have the "Nietzsche's Superman" , the Übermensch (the man that is totally free, without moral, religion , etc) (Deus Ex could be Nietszche's super man at the final) Please , developers check out about it because is a GOOD point to be in DX3 (Check the 'Thus Spoke Zarathustra', 'On the Genealogy of Morals' and 'The Antichrist' books).
And please, in the endings put phrases of philosophers like in DX1.

If Deus Ex 3 have more phylosophy, it will have the value of art and 'not just a game' and the older guys (like me) will play it and say to everybody.Graphics can be superated, but not a good history.
Thanks for reading!

[SomaMech]

Yeah alot of people here are hoping DX3 features the same level of intelligence as DX1. DX2 was dumbed down in order to to cater for the younger console audiences. They obviouslly deemed it unneccessary, and the only thing on their mind was making as much money as possible. Hopefully Eidos Montreal will bring back the Deus Ex magic!

[ThatDeadDude]

I like the idea of putting in philosophy, but I will be honest and admit that I don't get most of the references put into games. I've simply never been of the inclination to go and read Nietzche and other heavy works. All I am saying is that I don't think the game should try too hard to be smart and try put in philosophical concepts just for the sake of it. I'd rather that it was filled with original ideas, like those in a conversation between friends, if that makes any sense

They should hire a "designated thinker" or something, to come up with the big questions that are relevant in the setting. I far prefer thinking over reading others thoughts... but I dunno... maybe it just means I'm lazy

[Papy]

I love Nietzsche, but unfortunately I don't think it's ever going to happen. Nietzsche is certainly the most misunderstood philosopher and a lot of (superficial) persons won't appreciate having some of his ideas in a video game.

Also, even if children are a minority, they are still an important minority. I doubt that someone who is only 15 years could really understand anything written by Nietzsche.

[mr_cyberpunk]

Imagine if this game used the Aristotle philosophies lol that'd be so ed up.

[Slack]

Allright... I agree that the game cannot focus on that... but the real cool thing of DX1 is that he is kinda cult (he have questions like :how we can command the world?, what is the best way?, is it possible?) and he have action and all the things that we love in games .I like it too, of course!.

[B0b_P@ge]

I agree, have philosophy, and have lots of it!! Moreover, make this game for 'above average people' (keyword=people, not console gamers).

Have lots of political-philosophy arguments as well, Dx2 was all about *yawn* transhumanism and all that hardcore sci-fi stuff *yawn* ... bring back MEANINGFUL discussions.... I love that one discussion with the bar tender in 'The Lucky Money' in Hong Kong, or the nationalistic bar-drunk at the canal outside Wan Chai in that one bar.... or reading that book Maggie Chow was reading, "Tai-fung" I think it was called? (It talked about how the only real change is brought from within governments & groups and not through revolution).

[jordan_a]

I regret to say that, but philosophy is a serious matter.

And we can't expect, I hope I'm wrong, from video games developers to implement wisely useful and genuine philosophical theories. In other words what I mean is that to know little in philosophy requires years of study.

This is why I suggested, this will never happen though, that Law, philosophy, science, sociology (ect...) university/college professors participate.

[Rosenrot]

People need to stop the bashing crap, and they know who they are. Deus Ex 2 being 'Dumbed down' for console gamers is pure poppycock. What happened is A. a different dev. team B. different game director. And if anyone thinks Deus Ex 2 was limited by its 'console counterpart' needs to be informed and read up that the problem was really the engine. Please guys, enough console its just pure stupidity and troll food.

[Rosenrot]

Originally Posted by B0b_P@ge

I agree, have philosophy, and have lots of it!! Moreover, make this game for 'above average people' (keyword=people, not console gamers).

Have lots of political-philosophy arguments as well, Dx2 was all about *yawn* transhumanism and all that hardcore sci-fi stuff *yawn* ... bring back MEANINGFUL discussions.... I love that one discussion with the bar tender in 'The Lucky Money' in Hong Kong, or the nationalistic bar-drunk at the canal outside Wan Chai in that one bar.... or reading that book Maggie Chow was reading, "Tai-fung" I think it was called? (It talked about how the only real change is brought from within governments & groups and not through revolution).

By the way. In the trailer theres the little tiny.. [h+] sign. If you can tell what that means, i'll give you a E-cookie. Its something you probably dislike but will probably be in Deus Ex 3.

[Slack]

Originally Posted by Rosenrot

By the way. In the trailer theres the little tiny.. [h+] sign. If you can tell what that means, i'll give you a E-cookie. Its something you probably dislike but will probably be in Deus Ex 3.

"Transhumanism (sometimes symbolized by >H or H+), a term often used as a synonym for "human enhancement", is an international intellectual and cultural movement supporting the use of new sciences and technologies to enhance human mental and physical abilities and aptitudes, and ameliorate what it regards as undesirable and unnecessary aspects of the human condition, such as stupidity, suffering, disease, aging and involuntary death. Transhumanist thinkers study the possibilities and consequences of developing and using human enhancement techniques and other emerging technologies for these purposes. Possible dangers, as well as benefits, of powerful new technologies that might radically change the conditions of human life are also of concern to the transhumanist movement."

Give a cookie to wikipedia =)

It's cool that a game can make us search the things they talk there.That's a little of what I were talking about.It's cool to go with the original purposes of Deus Ex 1 action+rpg+philosophy , because of course the graphics can be superable, but not a good history, good facts or just some good and polemical theories together making a game.

[minus0ne]

Originally Posted by jordan_a

I regret to say that, but philosophy is a serious matter.

And we can't expect, I hope I'm wrong, from video games developers to implement wisely useful and genuine philosophical theories. In other words what I mean is that to know little in philosophy requires years of study.

This is why I suggested, this will never happen though, that Law, philosophy, science, sociology (ect...) university/college professors participate.

We should expect it though. If we don't, why else would the devs include it in their game? Don't forget a lot of people had a LOT of philosophy in school/college. In DX it's an added bonus if you understand the bits of philosophy (as it's an added bonus if you understand French, even though there's very little of it, or if you get little jokes like Alex's 'schadenfreude' memo about Gunther's password), it's not required to advance in the game. They can easily do the same with this game. Hell, they can probably do BETTER (I know, sacrilege). People who don't get it/don't want to read it can just skip the in game literature altogether (or speed-read it for clues/passwords).

Originally Posted by Rosenrot

People need to stop the bashing crap, and they know who they are. Deus Ex 2 being 'Dumbed down' for console gamers is pure poppycock. What happened is A. a different dev. team B. different game director. And if anyone thinks Deus Ex 2 was limited by its 'console counterpart' needs to be informed and read up that the problem was really the engine. Please guys, enough console its just pure stupidity and troll food.

Major off-topic, but the engine was perfectly capable of rendering large enviroments (see Tribes: Vengeance). The problem arose because it was to be a console release, the graphics needed to look all Xbox-y and Microsoftish (which for some odd reason at the time meant everything had to look like plastic, especially character models ), so they sacrificed gameplay (large and mostly seamless enviroments) for the sake of getting some graphics whores/adolescents on board. And they again sacrificed art direction for the sake of a few more polygons.

And I don't see how UE2 is responsible for IW's mediocrity and lowbrow feel. There wasn't any nuance or subtlety, everything was literally shouted in your ears or presented on a silver platter. In trying to make the game "accessible" to the masses/youngsters they instead removed so much obstacles (ie, the game thinks for you) that it became a shallow experience which doesn't present ANY challenge to the player.

Different team? Wrong. Aside from some shuffling, mostly the same team of people who made the first game. And the game was limited by the console version - this is reflected in the review scores (which are exclusively lower for the PC version). The console version was definitely their priority, the PC version was done almost as if it were an afterthought.

Now that consoles have grown up somewhat (as has their audience), let's hope it won't present an issue this time around, though it's hard to ignore how much faster and better looking PC games will be in ~24 months when compared to X360/PS3 games (even assuming devs get better at utilizing the console). I'm not that demanding on graphics (though art direction is a different matter), but I fear they're going to make the same mistake IS made with IW, which would be prioritizing the console version (and not making the PC version as good looking as it could be).

[B0b_P@ge]

Originally Posted by Rosenrot

People need to stop the bashing crap, and they know who they are. Deus Ex 2 being 'Dumbed down' for console gamers is pure poppycock. What happened is A. a different dev. team B. different game director. And if anyone thinks Deus Ex 2 was limited by its 'console counterpart' needs to be informed and read up that the problem was really the engine. Please guys, enough console its just pure stupidity and troll food.

Listen, Deus Ex: Invisible War dropped the ball in every aspect, in every manner. It sucked... OK? Whether it was the developers focus on the console, my nostalgia for the first game, or maybe I need to eat more paint chips to truly enjoy it, I don't know.... but THIS THREAD is hardly any place to start arguing about that... Please discuss this in ANOTHER THREAD. Thank you.

Moving on. I hated how in Dx:Iw EVERYONE had an opinion, even the damn music box... it was damn obscene. Dx did it correctly, usually leaders or people with important political positions 'towed the party line' while a lot of the common people gave they're honest opinions, sometimes it was ill-informed/ignorant/intelligent but in any case, it made the game feel so real. All these mixtures of philosophies made dx such a pleasure to play

[Papy]

Originally Posted by jordan_a

what I mean is that to know little in philosophy requires years of study.

You seem to confuse the study of philosophy, with the ideas themselves. I certainly met several people who knew a lot about philosophy, but weren't "philosopher" at all. Classifying and (pretentiously) analyzing an idea is not the same as presenting or developing that idea. I agree you need to study philosophy to compare Nietzsche to Kant or Descartes, but you don't need years of study to pick up a book from Nietzsche and to appreciate it.

Personally, I would even say that an interactive video game could be more effective than a book for someone who would want to present those ideas for the simple reason that the context is inescapable. Nietzsche is misunderstood by a lot of people, because they choose their own meanings to the words they read and assume their own context. A video game can achieve the same emotional state as the poetic style of Nietzsche, without allowing the player to misinterpret the ideas. He may choose to ignore them or to disagree with them, but he won't be able to distort them so they fit his own cultural yoke.

[Slack]

I agree with you Papy...good reply
Actually, you can present the philosophy, you don't need to be/become a phylosopher

[jordan_a]

Originally Posted by Papy

but you don't need years of study to pick up a book from Nietzsche and to appreciate it.

Absolutely. We have a book here in France called Philosophy A to Z. You can pick it up, read it occasionally, appreciate it and learn a lot. It gives you the main ideas for a start.

But to develop a video game's story, plots, twists you need to have a profound knowledge of the subject if you want to strengthen and deepen your fiction.

Hence, from my point of view, those who really are able to bring a genuine philosophical content are university/college professors or really avid readers. Eidos might have the latters on their team, who knows?

[SomaMech]

Originally Posted by Rosenrot

People need to stop the bashing crap, and they know who they are. Deus Ex 2 being 'Dumbed down' for console gamers is pure poppycock. What happened is A. a different dev. team B. different game director. And if anyone thinks Deus Ex 2 was limited by its 'console counterpart' needs to be informed and read up that the problem was really the engine. Please guys, enough console its just pure stupidity and troll food.

If we all go round ignoring the reasons IW was dumbed down, there's going to be alot of dissapointed DX3 players.

*EDIT* Dodgy grammar

[Caradoc]

This is a wonderfull topic and I hope Eidos pays enough attention to the subject. The orginal DX had so much substance that It surpasses most games I've seen.

Have lots of political-philosophy arguments as well, Dx2 was all about *yawn* transhumanism and all that hardcore sci-fi stuff *yawn* ... bring back MEANINGFUL discussions.... I love that one discussion with the bar tender in 'The Lucky Money' in Hong Kong, or the nationalistic bar-drunk at the canal outside Wan Chai in that one bar.... or reading that book Maggie Chow was reading, "Tai-fung" I think it was called? (It talked about how the only real change is brought from within governments & groups and not through revolution).

I agree, those discussions (and the books) were really unique. I'd love to encounter something similar in DX3.

[Slack]

Yeah... a bit of culture doesnt kill anybody...

[mr_cyberpunk]

Originally Posted by Slack

Yeah... a bit of culture doesnt kill anybody...

Just excludes 90% of their demographic.

This game shouldn't be targeted at academics. It should in its entirety be targeted at the RPG players. (deep story)

If the game is going to hit philosophically then it should do it in a layman's matter else we get bogged down in the complexity of the subject. Hence suggesting things that no one will understand is pointless unless it can be communicated in a matter that is appealing to the story and easy to relate to. Philosophy has a practical use :P its not all text books you know.

[AaronJ]

Originally Posted by Papy

I doubt that someone who is only 15 years could really understand anything written by Nietzsche.

I read him all the time, I'm 15.

[Kusanagi]

I like this thread. I am always pleased to find good philosophy; but the success of DX1 lay in the attention to quasi-philosophies, mistakes, wit, instructions, deceptions, code, etc. as well as 'philosophy', always attuned to some sort of 'right answer'...of which there were at least four in DX1. DX1 did a good job of both disguising and forcing one to confront the 1/0 of code, so that the experience was very vivid of commitments, choices, possible mistakes, fear of missed opportunities - in short, of having 'understood' or not (most re-playing of DX1 was for the purpose of exploring, listening to the second or third levels of dialogues). Authors like Eco (Name of the Rose, not the later ones) and Joyce (Ulysses) are very good at embedding high philosophy in the play of the story; most novelists do this at some level (Raymond Chandler, Mark Twain), and it permeates adult comix. We do NOT need the pretentious (and confused) lectures of 'The Matrix'.

Re: games - the link between play and philosophy is very ancient. Hence the profound disappointment when millions of bucks and hours and plenty of talent take the 'philosophical' decision to treat the gamer with contempt.

The distinction between art direction and grafix (I thought photo-realism died with Impressionism) is very right.

[Grant_Weaver]

lol it doesn't take YEARS of studying to be well studied in philosophy. Just takes the capacity to read and freetime.

[minus0ne]

Originally Posted by Grant_Weaver

lol it doesn't take YEARS of studying to be well studied in philosophy. Just takes the capacity to read and freetime.

No. But study certainly helps. Many philosophers have to be put in their historical/contemporary context to be properly understood. In addition it takes years to even read enough philosophy to form a well-balanced view of the subject matter (since most philosophers can pretty much make any point convincing and convince most readers by their mastery of rhetoric alone).

[Papy]

Originally Posted by minus0ne

since most philosophers can pretty much make any point convincing and convince most readers by their mastery of rhetoric alone.

I strongly disagree. The first philosophy book I read was from Descartes (I don't remember which one exactly) and the only thing his "mastery of rhetoric" could accomplish was to convince me he was a coward and pretentious man who was more interested in intellectual masturbation and pleasing the current political power than real thinking. I love Nietzsche, but it's more because I feel the same as he did than because he was able to convince me he was right.