(REPOST) The Seer is Revealed...well, partly...LOL

[Umah Bloodomen]

Hey, lookie here. One of my "early" posts from the "old" forum.



I've noticed a lot of posts concerning the murals from throughout the LoK series, and how they reveal the story, so I've decided to check many of them out for myself. (I knew the murals told the stories, I just never really took the time to piece them together more than what was necessary for game play). I have tried to brush myself up, the best I can, on the other "mural related" posts..I may have missed early posts though, so bear with me. (Don't want to sound like another broken record by repeating the same post topics.)

So far I've only gotten into BO2 and the beginning of SR2 (again...LOL). It's going to take me awhile to get all of the other information, so I figured the members who have studied the murals could help me out.

BO2 - Chapter 11 - Hylden City (Following the water & crate area, just before the green elevator/platform area) Lower Level

Murals Discovered:
1. Solitary ancient Hylden figure (female)
2. Same female Hylden standing alongside ancient male Hylden
3. Same female Hylden with a body (body is just a head and torso. head features pointy ears and indications of fangs, while torso has no arms)
4. Same female figure in seated position (holding a skull)

My conclusions:

Mural 1 OBVIOUSLY depicts the Seer. I would gather by the mural of her standing alone, that she was probably a prominent figure in ancient Hylden society (like a leader/ruler)

Mural 2 depicts the Seer with a male Hylden. If the Seer was of some importance in her society, this male figure would also most likely be of importance (like a military leader/warrior/ruler) I have come to the conclusion that this male Hylden figure is none other than the Sarafan Lord in his original form. At first I was inclined to believe that there was perhaps a romantic link between these 2 Hylden figures (much like that of Ariel & Nupraptor) however, I am more inclined now to believe that they are siblings (which would signify their importance to the Hylden society).

Mural 3 depicts the Seer holding a dismembered body. All that remains is a head with pointy ears, dark hair and what would appear to be fangs, along with an armless torso. There are images of some sort of conflict surrounding the 2 figures, presumably magical, but alas, I could not make that part out quite as well.

Mural 4 depicts the Seer simply seated with a skull in her hand. She appears to be either looking at it or conversing with it.

BO2 - Chapter 11 - Hylden City (Following the water & crate area, just before the green elevator/platform area) Upper Level

Murals Discoverd:

1. Ancient Hylden Figure (female) decked out in warrior armor
2. Solitary ancient Hylden Figure (male)
3. Same Female Hylden in a group of other Hylden (performing mass experiement or murder..obvious scene of violence)
4. Same Male Hylden killing a being

My Conclusions:

Mural 1 depicts the same female Hylden that was seen on the murals of the lower level. Again this is the Seer. This time she is outfitted in warrior armor and is carrying a pike/staff weapon. I believe this clearly tells us that the Hylden were a violent society, maybe not genocidal, but strict, with strict punishments.

Mural 2 depicts the male Hylden, alone. This is also where I derive my conclusion of him being of some importance within the Hylden society. I still believe that this is what we have come to know as the Sarafan Lord.

Mural 3 depecits the Seer (along with other hylden, including the Sarafan Lord) in a violent scene. This is where I derive my theory of the Hylden being a strict society with punishments. The scene shows experiments, possibly punishments being issued to the beings with dark hair, and fangs.

Mural 4 depicts the Sarafan Lord killing another being with dark hair and fangs. If he's not killing him, then he is definately intimidating him (probably punishing him).

My Idea Surrounding the Seer & the Hylden:

I believe that the Seer and Sarafan Lord are siblings which lead the ancient Hylden sociey in a strict and just manner. Because the Seer can "see" the events of the future, I believe that she saw the Winged Ancients as another powerful race, similar to that of the Hylden. The Sarafan Lord is power hungry, so when visions of the Winged Ancients plagued the Seer , this drove the Sarafan Lord to want to invade Nosgoth. The Sarafan Lord also strikes me as an egotistical being (similar to Kain) and probably nagged his sister about the events of the future, like "am I going to rule supreme over?..." or "what happens when I am big and bad?" type questions. In an attempt to calm his ego, the Seer most likely told him he would lead but another race would prove worthier than his own. This of course ticked him off and sent him on his quest to enslave the Winged Ancients, demand that they use their magic for his purposes and begin taking control of the universe. I believe that the Seer is more of a docile being than the Sarafan Lord and was probably forced to invade Nosgoth and mold it into their society. The Sarafan Lord would need her visions in order to prevail hence why she came along. The Winged Ancients were lead in a more peaceful manner and didn't expect to be enslaved for their powers and beliefs. Obviously (from the murals) the Winged Ancients were tortured and whatnot, most likely for not revealing their secrets to the Sarafan Lord. After years of suffering, the Winged Ancients decided to fight back and reclaim Nosgoth as their own like it had been prior to the Hylden takeover. I believe the Seer was called on to fight alongside her brother and her people but refused, fighting for the Winged Ancients instead, which caused her to eventually take refuge in the forests of Nosgoth, but not out of cowardice. I believe she and the Ancient Wingeds had an alliance, she respected the way the Winged society was structured, peaceful and focused on developing new magicks and technologies, not a bloodthirsty dictatorship her own society was molded into. This is what caused the bad blood between Winged Ancients and the Hylden (who I assume were under the brainwashed control of the Sarafan Lord...perhaps another effect of glyph energy). The Winged Ancients fought back and fought back hard, weakining the Hyldens with the powers of the Soul Reaver and errecting the Pillars, thus banishing the Hyldens to another dimension and sealing the gate behind them and cursing the Winged Ancients as vampires out of revenge.

(Much of what I have just spoken about is depicted on the walls of the Subterranean Chamber of SR2...where "squiddy" is. LOL).

This is all the conclusions I've currently come to....I do hope that many of you can help me piece even more of the puzzle together with other murals. I will be playing the games more to do my own "research" as well. Thanks!

I am interested particularily in:

Why/When the Pillars have guardians
Is there evidence of changing guardians (following their deaths...original guardians etc.)
The infamous Hash'ak'gik theory
Events changed/occuring throughout all timelines

[KainSyndrome101]

Very, very cool theory Umah. I didn't really think anything of the mural with the female on it. I knew it had some significance, but I never thought the Seer could be linked to it.

I'm doing some mural hunting myself these days, cause I have nothing better to do. It's a fun job though.

[L_Master562]

Umah Bloodomen. Good one at that as it makes a good deal of sence. I need to post more now that I can.

[chuffy]

i think that the seer is a cross-breed, half vampire half helden hence the wings, fangs and bat-like ears. with the bony ang grey skin. or she could have been halden woman who was turned into a vampire and has evoled after many years, If the helden are strict maybe they punished all the winged poeple for breeding with one of the helden. turning them all into vampires. and they used the seer as their weapon to seek out their enemys. hence the mural of violence. then in when the helden was banish she stay because she was a half breed. then hiding for 100's of years she started to feel guilt for what she had done. Unless she was forced to help the helden.

chuffy

[lordofthepillars]

Hello mrs umah i also noticed that the seer is a hylden at least she is one before they fell from their former state as the hylden lord said "are we not all fallen gods". This is just my opinion though . I have been looking at the murals in soul reaver 2 and blood omen 2 because i think they reveal alot of the story as well. It would be interesting to find out more about the seer in a future installment of the series .

[Embla]

Umah, I`m impressed with your capabilities of figuring out all this from some murals,and I think your theory is really great!

[SirRaziel]

Yep I reckon it should be a movie plot that theory.

[JANOS_KING_OF_VAMPIRES]

i am not going to read all that
but i still go by my theory of the seer being a vamp and hylden hybrid


Topic: i think the seer is a hybrid!

i was looking at some pics of the seer and i saw that she had wings(a anciet vamp characteristic)
but she also looked like a hylden
and that would explain the mural that shows hylden taking her away
she must have been seen as a hideous creature
a mistake
its just a theory
tell me what u think

here is the post i made on the old board awhile back

[Umah Bloodomen]

The ancient murals of the Hylden vs. Ancient Wingeds showed the Hylden had wing-like appendages gracing their backs. The female Hylden depicted in the murals of BO2 had similar appendages.

The wings on both races looked different. Ancients had feathered wings whereas the Hylden had fleshy ones.

I think it is kind of un-openminded of you to sit here and respond with:

Originally Posted by JANOS_KING_OF_VAMPIRES

i am not going to read all that
but i still go by my theory of the seer being a vamp and hylden hybrid

To have your own suggestion is fine, but to throw your suggestion into someone elses thought out thread without even taking it into consideration is a bit absurd.

You could've very well created your own thread to get your own responses to your theory.


EDIT - Thanks to all of you who did actually read through my theories. I am glad that you too received a new insight to the Hylden and look forward to developing more interesting theories for discussion in the future.

[JANOS_KING_OF_VAMPIRES]

i didn't wanna waste time
this is a thread about the seer so i thought it would be a good time to mention my thoughts

[JANOS_KING_OF_VAMPIRES]

look, i dont mean any disrespect
i thought this was a thread to discuss the seer
i decided to use this oppurtunity to pst my theory that was on the old message board

[chinese-soul-eater]

Yea thats prettty good umah

i only looked at the murals for a second cause i wanted to reach the sarafan lord quick and beat him

i never would have thought that they were brother and sister though (creativity)

but didnt the sarafan lord kill her when she helped kain

[willow]

look, i dont mean any disrespect
i thought this was a thread to discuss the seer
i decided to use this oppurtunity to pst my theory that was on the old message board

Yes but you basically said I'm not going to waste time on you and your ideas, however I want you to waste time on mine...
Get the picture... you may not of meant it to be disrespectful... but it was.

[JANOS_KING_OF_VAMPIRES]

i said i wasn't going to read that because it was long
it was meant for humor
what the hell happened
back in the old message board everyone was cool

[chuffy]

i was just playing BO2 and i saw that the seer doesn't have wings!!!
if you look carefully, you will see she has large bone like appendages that come out of her back and a piece of cloth that hangs in between! looking like wings.

chuffy

[Umah Bloodomen]

chinese-soul-eater ~

Whether or not the Sarafan Lord disposed of the Seer when she helped Kain has not been revealed yet. My personal view on this is that he didn't. If the Seer had the power to teleport Kain out of the burning house, then naturally she would've followed suit and teleported out herself.

Another view I have is that she teleported herself out of the burning house and confronted the Sarafan Lord. (Not in battle of course, merely conversation that we weren't priviledged to see).
If they are siblings, then I would assume that The Sarafan Lord would've been upset with her for helping Kain. I would stand to think he himself had telekinetic/telepathic powers like the Seer but not as strong as the Seer. Hence why he cant' see the events of the future. I believe his mental abilities were limited to "sense". Twins have been known to share a mental bond and sense if the other is hurting or happy etc. I think this is a similar bond shared between the Sarafan Lord and the Seer. We could take this a few steps further and assume if the Seer was harmed, then the Sarafan Lord would feel the affects of that. If that is true then I don't picture the Sarafan Lord going out of his way to harm her on account he'd be harming himself.

I can already see that you may question "then does that mean the Seer feels the same affects?" The answer; Yes. At the end of BO2, the Sarafan Lord said something about never fully dying. He would just return to his demonic dimension and look for another opportunity to reinvade Nosgoth. (Which he could do until Balance to the Pillars was restored). If he were harmed (which he was) Then the Seer would feel that and also be affected, maybe even incapacitaed for the time being, until her sibling was of better strength. This is all speculation at this point, but it wouldn't surprise me. It does explain a lot as to why we didn't see or hear from the Seer again following her brief appearance. I really hope this one "will be revealed in time".

chuffy ~

If you check out my theory on Azimuth the Planer you would find some interesting views on the Seer's appearance. To save you the time, I will repeat that if she was a Hylden, then obviously her appearance would change just so she isn't persecuted for being different and also being related to the bad blood between ancients and hylden.

There is also speculation that Ive brought up, suggesting that because the Seer did not enforce the Hylden way (totally....please review this thread). that she was allowed to stay in Nosgoth by ancient magic. She wasn't devolved into such a hideous creature as the other hylden, and she of course remains in Nosgoth without any problems. I find it hard to swallow that no one of importance knows she is there. I believe Janos knows she was there, why wouldn't he? He is the "God" figure of our story, naturally he is inclined to such trivial things. (Hence the dialogue of him knowing of Raziel in SR2). I forsee the knowledge of certain parties in the series being disclosed in the new installments, as well as the Seer's origins, relations to the characters along with her presence overall.

[chuffy]

i starting to see why everybody likes you so much Umah

chuffy

[Umah Bloodomen]

Well I suppose I will take that as a compliment then.

***leans into chuffy and whispers in his/her ear*** Now could you let me into why? I haven't the slightest idea.

[chuffy]

because your the lady that just keeps giving. and your thoerys are very detailed and can be quite convincing. i did read them before but i have a mind like a thing with holes.

and just for future reference i'm of the male persuasion.

chuffy

[Umah Bloodomen]

***tips her hat to chuffy***
Why thank you, kind sir.

[Vampmaster]

The Hylden woman in the murals does not have ears like the seer. That is some kind of bone structure that extends from the Hyldens head. The devolved ones in the game had this only with gaps in it.

[Vampmaster]

Whether or not the murals are of the Seer doesn't make your theory any less valid, Umah. It makes a lot of sense. What part do you think the Elder has in it? I think he had a part in causing the Hylden-Vampire war. I think she could be reading the future by reading his mind or he could be sending her false visions to manipulate her and the hylden. I think she could be a Hylden with the vampiric curse, which would explain her features.

[Umah Bloodomen]

As I stated before, I think she is a Hylden but her curse was not as extreme as what was bestowed upon her entire race. That would explain the slight difference in her features. I stated earlier that I figured she had simply chose to fight against the Hylden which made her curse less extreme. (She helped the ancients, therefore they didn't use as much magic on her and they allowed her to stay in Nosgoth).

As for the elder, I think (as do many) that he is none other than the dark god, Hash'ak'gik. I think that he didn't necessarily cause the ancient vs. Hylden battle, but he merely took advantage of the situation and helped the Hylden re-enter Nosgoth pre BO2 and during BO2. I think Hash merely existed in the demonic dimension that the Hylden were banished to and seized his own opportunity for glory and invaded it.

Rekalistically there is no evidence suggesting the existance of either Hash or the elder during the time of the Ancient civilization. Even the elder didn't make mention of it in the SR series. I think this poses an interesting question for all of us as to when and why he came to be, and why he started the cult of followers (which includes Moebius) and why he sought out Mortanius to possess.

I can't wait for this piece to be filled into the puzzle in SR3 and BO3.

[Light In Dark]

Alright my very first written account in this forum...ever!!!

I just wanted to let Umah know that her thread is very in depth and I'm impressed (not that you should care).

In my old opinion I thought the seer was just a weird vampire and that thing on her back a bit o cloth but now that I have read what these people are saying new ideas have popped into my little head! all to weird to write down and make sense, but Basically I think she was a hylden and got nipped by a vamp or died and ressurected as a vamp or something along thouse lines. but then again the Hylden and the anchients were in Nosgoth to start with then the war popped up, the Anchients banned the Hylden to the deamon realm, then the pillers went boom the hylden popped back blah blah blah...is this some kinda romeo and juliet thing with the two warring families and the two lost lovers yada yada yada ... see told you it was weird

[Umah Bloodomen]

Originally posted by Light In Dark
Alright my very first written account in this forum...ever!!!

Welcome to the forums btw.

Originally posted by Light In Dark
I just wanted to let Umah know that her thread is very in depth and I'm impressed (not that you should care).

**shrugs*** Perhaps I shouldn't care, but it is always nice to get a compliment around here (especially lately ***bites tongue to hold back her little sarcastic remark here...for now anyway).

I am glad that you found this thread enjoyable Light in the Dark.

Originally posted by Light In Dark
In my old opinion I thought the seer was just a weird vampire and that thing on her back a bit o cloth but now that I have read what these people are saying new ideas have popped into my little head! all to weird to write down and make sense, but Basically I think she was a hylden and got nipped by a vamp or died and ressurected as a vamp or something along thouse lines. but then again the Hylden and the anchients were in Nosgoth to start with then the war popped up, the Anchients banned the Hylden to the deamon realm, then the pillers went boom the hylden popped back blah blah blah...is this some kinda romeo and juliet thing with the two warring families and the two lost lovers yada yada yada ... see told you it was weird

I doubt your own ideas are "too weird". Besides, we all are a bit weird, we'd probably get a kick out of them. .

Your Romeo and Juliet (Capulets vs. Montagues) analogy is good. Another good one would be The Hatfields and The McCoys.

It is still unclear at this point who came first...the ancients or the Hylden. Indeed both had a presence in Nosgoth, but I am wondering who actually migrated there, and who already had a hold on the place. (I lean a little towards the Ancients being there first, but I would like to know where the Hylden originate from - pre-banishment and pre-war).

EDIT Fixed a boldface tag.