Legacy of Kain: Making Maps

[Shrykull]

So I'm making maps, just for curiosity, of certain parts of the land. At the moment, I'm making one from Soul Reaver 2. It goes from the Sarafan Stronghold to the Pillars.

I've drawn the entire Stronghold, everys room it has, the lake sorrounding it, and all the way up to the underground chamber of the Pillars. For now I've just made a sketch, and have already taken the measurements of the Stronghold and the lake. But what I see, from observing the drawings, is that certain parts of the Stronghold don't match! For instance, the balcony seems to me that it should be far more to the south (right, standing in it, facing the lake).

Now I ask: do the designers build everything to match, or do they cheat in a way to make it look like every room matches?

I hope I'm making myself clear...

Any explanation from the creators themselves would be much apreciated. And comments as well.

[Omega]

They built everything to match.

After all, it's a 3D enviroment in the game, the buildings are designed to be 3D and for them to match up.

The program used to create the land will have it's own scope of size, it's own scale and measurment. If it can be made in a 3D program such as the one used to create the games, it can be made in real life.

Having said that, I'm not sure now.

I'm trying to picture the interior and the exterior of the Stronghold in my mind, and I'm coming up short on quite a few things

[Vampmaster]

I wrote a program (ModelEx on www.thelostworlds.net) that can sort of figure it out for SR1 and draw entire areas, but I want to figure out all of the details before moving on to SR2 or Defiance, which are more complex. It's an ongoing project that's taken me a couple of years to get as far as I have with it.

[Shrykull]

Well I'm hoping it matches, but I can't figure out how!... When I'm finishing the drawings made with the correct scale, I'll post them here.

You see, the Stronghold has 2 entrances: the 2 big doors and the balcony. Which are not too far away from each other. And it seems quite impossible to me to fit all the chambers and corridors in that rather small space between the 2 entrances. This is one of the problems, the other one is the junction between the Chapter House and the outdoors patio. Because the length of the corridor from the Main Sanctuary to the patio seems to me much shorter than that from the Sanctuary to the Chapter House, which supposedly are parallel to one and another.

Anyway, tomorrow we'll see, hopefully it will all match...

[Shrykull]

Started the drawings, and just discovered that the very first room where you start, the one with the big basin, is impossible to fit as it will actually colide with the corridor between the small room with that other basin and the courtyard.

Man, any help with this would be apreciated... It's a pity if they don't build the rooms to exactly match with eatch other...

[Omega]

I'm sure the rooms (interiors) do match with each other, but the exterior of the Stronghold might not match with the interior.

If you've played Morrowind or Oblivion, look at the houses from the outside, the size of them, and then compare that to the interior.

To explain what I mean with pictures, click this link to visit a thread here at Eidos about Morrowind plugins. If you view picture 11, you'll see that the entrance to my house is just a door places in the middle of a field (ignore the building behind it, I was playing with exteriors for the house). Then if you view pictures 12 onwards, you'll see the interior which is massive!

I might get SR2 out later and use the fly code to have a look around the Stronghold. I had always thought that the Stronghold over the water, by the large doors was very narrow which then led to a seperate area of the Stronghold "on land" to the left of the doors (as you face them from the outside).

[Shrykull]

Well yeah, I know what you mean, and that's what I feared... Just noticed another displacement but it's difficult to explain. I'll try to scan the sheets and post what I've done so far. You'll see what I mean.

[Shrykull]

Well here it is! Veeeery poor quality but it serves... There's one sheet missing that has the exterior north of the Stronghold: has the 2 large doors and all the way to the room prior to the Sanctuary.


http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/7...ongholdtk0.jpg

Also, see what I meant about the first big room...

[Zulgbrtzchllha]

Originally Posted by Omega

To explain what I mean with pictures, click this link to visit a thread here at Eidos about Morrowind plugins. If you view picture 11, you'll see that the entrance to my house is just a door places in the middle of a field (ignore the building behind it, I was playing with exteriors for the house). Then if you view pictures 12 onwards, you'll see the interior which is massive!

Just like Dark Eden!

Isn't there a way to use a Game Shark to make everything wireframe like in Defiance? I seem to remember BLincoln's site mentioning that, or maybe it's only for the demo. And I'm not sure how far it would load as well (I was really surprised with how much I could see in Defiance).

[Shrykull]

Well I've just confirmed After exploring the game with the flying code and going off areas, I've seen how I was right with the drawings and that the game REALLY isn't made for the rooms to match up. If only I had screenshots to show it to you...

You see, from the outside of the Fortress, the balcony is right near the room from the 2 big doors, when it should actually be far more distanced. The first room with the basin disapears when you pass that other corridor, otherwise they whould collide. The courtyard isn't parallel to the Chapter House as it appears.

Well, I guess if I want to make this map, I'll have to do some adjustments...

It's a pity they don't make the scenarios realistic. I guess in this case the backyard lake would be more vast and probably take more memory or something.

I'm also starting to do a SR1 map with the extracted areas and textures. I've done all the way from the Pillars to the Abyss. I always questioned if the distance was realistic enough for the Abyss to be where the Lake of the Dead was. And it really is!

Has anyone made any of these kind of maps?

[Omega]

Just out of curiosity, what are you using to measure dimensions?

Are you doing it like "every step Raziel takes is one meter"?

[Shrykull]

Well I used sneaking and considered it like 1 step half meter. The proportions are there, as I've said in my previous post, I've confirmed in the game.

Why do you ask?

[Omega]

Just curiosity

I can't be sure, but I think by using the Debug menu, you might be able to bring up the developer stats, such as height, length, and width and use that as a "proper" and more accurate unit of measurment.

[Vampmaster]

Originally Posted by Shrykull

Well I've just confirmed After exploring the game with the flying code and going off areas, I've seen how I was right with the drawings and that the game REALY isn't made for the rooms to match up. If only I had screenshots to show it to you...

You see, from the outside of the Fortress, the balcony is right near the room from the 2 big doors, when it should actually be far more distanced. The first room with the basin disapears when you pass that other corridor, otherwise they whould collide. The courtyard isn't parallel to the Chapter House as it appears.

Well, I guess if I want to make this map, I'll have to do some adjustments...

It's a pity they don't make the scenarios realistic. I guess in this case the backyard lake would be more vast and probably take more memory or something.

I'm also starting to do a SR1 map with the extracted areas and textures. I've done all the way from the Pillars to the Abbiss. I always questioned if the distance was realistic enough for the Abbiss to be where the Lake of the Dead was. And it really is!

Has anyone made any of these kind of maps?

For SR1, just use that ModelEx program I mentioned on the areas, rotate for a birds eye view and line up screenshots taken from that. There should be a culling option that can make the polygons transparent on one side so you can see through the areas.

[Shrykull]

Yeah yeah, that's what I've done for SR1.

Do you, or anyone, have any maps done that way that you could share? Or any other detailed map like the ones we've been talking?

[Vampmaster]

Not yet. I'm working on an update that will include the animations for the character models and the spectral realm versions of the area files. Then I might start to add SR2 support and generating maps like you're looking for and drawing the objects in the positions they are in the levels.

[Shrykull]

Not yet. I'm working on an update that will include the animations for the character models and the spectral realm versions of the area files. Then I might start to add SR2 support and generating maps like you're looking for and drawing the objects in the positions they are in the levels.

Well I'm very curious to make the maps for SR2 and Defiance and perhaps Meridian as well! Since the scenarios change from game to game (like the Pillars).

The one I'm doing for SR1 is almost done.

When do you think you could make possible to extract the areas for SR2 and Defiance?

[Vampmaster]

I can't say for sure. There's always something that gets in the way. At the moment it's getting my driving licence, which is taking way too long.

I'm trying to add mouse controls to the new version for rotating the model around, but I can't quite get my arcball camera working. There' s a bit of cleaning up after that, but hopefully then I can start adding in the updated code for extracting the models/areas. I figured out the other formats of the game which the current version doesn't extract properly and how to get the alternative models for some of the objects. There are new features coming up, but it's just finding time to implement them all. I might have some time at weekend.

[Zulgbrtzchllha]

There's something you've reminded me of with your mapping of the Sarafan Stronghold. Is the lower part of the Pillars of Nosgoth where Raziel talks to the Elder God really right below the part of the Pillars of Nosgoth we're used to? It's never seemed to match up right for me, and after your mapping showed that the Sarafan Stronghold isn't designed like a real building.

[Shrykull]

I can't say for sure. There's always something that gets in the way. At the moment it's getting my driving licence, which is taking way too long.

I'm trying to add mouse controls to the new version for rotating the model around, but I can't quite get my arcball camera working. There' s a bit of cleaning up after that, but hopefully then I can start adding in the updated code for extracting the models/areas. I figured out the other formats of the game which the current version doesn't extract properly and how to get the alternative models for some of the objects. There are new features coming up, but it's just finding time to implement them all. I might have some time at weekend.

Well I'm really looking forward to those updates!

There's something you've reminded me of with your mapping of the Sarafan Stronghold. Is the lower part of the Pillars of Nosgoth where Raziel talks to the Elder God really right below the part of the Pillars of Nosgoth we're used to? It's never seemed to match up right for me, and after your mapping showed that the Sarafan Stronghold isn't designed like a real building.

Well I've only made a scketch exactly up to that point, so it's not with the right measures, but it seems to me that it does match.

Anyway, when the programs gets able to extract the areas from SR2, I'll surely make a map of SR2.

By the way, the SR1 map is coming out awsome!!

[Zulgbrtzchllha]

Geez. I didn't even finish that last sentance last night. I guess I must have been tired.
You're actually mapping out everywhere in the Soul Reaver games? Have a lot of free time I guess then? If I tried that I'd probably lose intrest before even completing the first room.

[Shrykull]

Lol.. Well I'm on vacation, it was just something I took interest in. Right now there are only 2 areas incomplete: the Oracle Caves and the Silent Cathedral.

[Zulgbrtzchllha]

OK, so, like, it's OBVIOUSLY not a mistake with the Sarafan Stronghold, I mean, come ON people! Didn't any of you play Blood Omen? Remember Dark Eden and how the Dimension Guardian manipulated space to make a small hut into a huge building on the inside? So OBVIOUSLY an older Dimension Guardian altered space for the Sarafan Stronghold! I mean, DUH!

[Shrykull]

Are you serious?

[Shrykull]

Finally!!! Here it is, I've completed every area but the are still some adjustments to do (proportion wise)...

http://img508.imageshack.us/my.php?i...osgoth2ql4.jpg


So this is what Nosgoth is starting to like in the SR1 era... At last we can see how it really fits in the old Nosgoth.

Now, I would like everyone to contribute with their opinions as to help me finishing it. As you can see, the Rahab area (which is supposedly correct in proportions) isn't fitting right (the cathedrals).

Give me you suggestions! They would be much apreciated.