Janos and the Circle; and Kain's insanity

[Binky]

So, I've been doing some "research" for a fic I'm now planning (mainly consisting of rereading old threads, ), and I've come upon two things that I don't quite know how to solve by myself; so, here I am, asking for your opinions.

First, do you think that Janos could be considered a part of the Circle? Or is it rather: the Circle plus Janos? This is not entirely merely a matter of naming, since those Circle members are supposed to be symbiotically bound.
What I mean is: in the end of SR2, has the integrity of the Circle been breached upon Janos's death, or only upon the death of those human guardians that Vorador killed? Could the power of the Circle, as a whole, have been somewhat temporarily weaker because of Janos's death? Or was Janos separate from the Circle's superorganism?


Second, do you think that Kain's vampires could have inherited from him his insanity (Nupraptor's disease, I mean)? Seeing that (i)ever since SR2's drastic improvement of vampires' PR, vampirism does not automatically imply destructive tendencies (see Janos, his nice bath in the back room notwithstanding); (ii)Kain's mode of spawning involves the use of souls; (iii)Kain's vampires are certainly more connected to each other than the previous ones (see the devolution of Dumahim as opposed to Vorador's merry life after Janos's death... and as opposed to Janos's words on the vampires' "not being that fragile.")?

In other words: do you think that Janos, Vorador, Umah, the Cabal vampires, little as is known of them, would, had they the opportunity, have consciously decided to destroy the whole ecosystem of (whatever Nosgoth actually is)... and would have also called the ensuing disaster "beautiful"?

I don't think so... Even in BO2, they speak of returning to the "natural" order of things; not of creating a brave new Nosgoth. But that's just my impression.

Well, what do you think?

[Anubis_Orr]

Originally posted by Binky
First, do you think that Janos could be considered a part of the Circle? Or is it rather: the Circle plus Janos? This is not entirely merely a matter of naming, since those Circle members are supposed to be symbiotically bound.
What I mean is: in the end of SR2, has the integrity of the Circle been breached upon Janos's death, or only upon the death of those human guardians that Vorador killed? Could the power of the Circle, as a whole, have been somewhat temporarily weaker because of Janos's death? Or was Janos separate from the Circle's superorganism?

I would consider it to be the Circle plus Janos, he is the Guardian of the Key not the Pillars, his death didn't affect the Reaver because he was not symbiotically bound to it nor is there a Pillar representative of his role.
The "integrity" of the Circle was breached by the actions of Moebius and outside forces. Janos' death was carefully calculated so he would be unable to inform Raziel of his destiny and to anger Vorador, thus after Janos' death Vorador takes his revenge on the Circle causing new Guardians to be called to take their places, these are the same Guardians that are corrupted in BO1.

Second, do you think that Kain's vampires could have inherited from him his insanity (Nupraptor's disease, I mean)? Seeing that (i)ever since SR2's drastic improvement of vampires' PR, vampirism does not automatically imply destructive tendencies (see Janos, his nice bath in the back room notwithstanding); (ii)Kain's mode of spawning involves the use of souls; (iii)Kain's vampires are certainly more connected to each other than the previous ones (see the devolution of Dumahim as opposed to Vorador's merry life after Janos's death... and as opposed to Janos's words on the vampires' "not being that fragile.")?

I don't believe Kain is ever affected in the same way as the other Guardians by Nuprator's psychic blast. Kain was just being born and his mind was not fully developed unlike the minds of the other Guardians, instead it left him "impotent" unable to fulfill his role and his destiny. Don't forget to include time factors and other circumstances when you compare different vampires, all of the vampires of SR1 de-evolved not because their lieutenants did but because it was infused into them along with the blood/soul that resurrected them.

In other words: do you think that Janos, Vorador, Umah, the Cabal vampires, little as is known of them, would, had they the opportunity, have consciously decided to destroy the whole ecosystem of (whatever Nosgoth actually is)... and would have also called the ensuing disaster "beautiful"?
I don't think so... Even in BO2, they speak of returning to the "natural" order of things; not of creating a brave new Nosgoth. But that's just my impression.

They may have a different perspective on what is and isn't natural, they are "unnatural" creatures themselves. As Vorador once stated "We are Dark Gods, and it is our duty to thin the herd". Also it's a case of the Food Chain, and since vampires are immortal and we don't know what happens when they go without blood they would eventually exhaust their food source so I guess they would have turn to eachother for their sustenance, if that's at all possible.

That's how I see it anyway

[warpsavant]

I don't think Janos is part of the Circle. But I do think his death had something to do with the Gaurdians being defenseless, the magic of the Gaurdians had failed before Vorador killed any of them, so I think it has to be Janos "death."

I dont think Kain passed his insanity onto his children. Never really thought about it though. Vampirism doesn't equal destructive tendencies, but in the time and place the Lts were created, this would seem to be the most obvious course of action, considering the humans (knowingly and unknowingly) worked with the Hylden.

And I also dont think that Kain intended for Nosgoth to become a disaster area, I think this just happens and has nothing to do with Kain other than the fact that he refused the sacrifice and blew up some killing machine inside the planet. He did not conciously intend to destroy Nosgoth. I dont think Umah and Co. would either.

[Umah Bloodomen]

I think Janos being a guardian is rather open-ended IMOI mean he says specifically in SR2 that he was summoned as the tenth guardian. Because Janos had lived so long, a new guardian wasn't summoned. With Janos dead, Raziel could assume the role. I think the tenth guardian specifically chooses his/her successor and enlightens them as such, whereas the Pillars summon their replacements upon the deaths of the guardians.

At the same token, Janos could be construed in "The circle plus..." as Anubis said. It is true that Janos shows no symbiotic binding to the Reaver (at least as we know). This goes back to all the "unknowns" I've mentioned time and time again. The Ancients and the time period involving the war and banishment, etc. isn't clear yet. Hypothetically, it could be possible that the magic of the reaver was bound to the soul of the ancient who created it. Let's assume that this was indeed Janos. I will have to find the thread in which it was proposed that Raziel was actually an ancient who was created to serve the reaver (thus the bound soul). It proved rather interesting and pointed out a few "unknown" scenarios. Give me some time to find that and it will make this paragraph make a little more sense.

I will disagree with Anubis here for a second on Kain being affected by Nupraptor's blast in the same way. He filled his destiny up until the point of him having to sacrifice himself. He more than cleansed the circle of their disease. When it came down to the ending events of BO1, Kain's flaw was the fact he used his free will rather than be a devoted servant to the Pillars and do what they required of him. I am sure that the rest of the guardians at one time served the pillars faithfully and without question prior to Ariel's murder and Nupraptor's attack. It wasn't until after these events that they all started displaying their hidden agendas (which were forced upon them by the mastermind(s) and puppetmaster(s) involved.

I agree with warp that Kain could not have passed the insanity off to his offspring. Simply because he doesn't reproduce in the typical manner and I don't believe the poison could possibly affect non-guardians. If it could, then all of humanity would be made nuts. Nupraptor aimed his attack at the guardians because he knew one of them was a traitor and murdered Ariel (beyond a reasonable doubt). If he thought a human committed the act (an ordinary one anyway) I am sure he would have and could have affected the humans in addition to the guardians.

Again I agree with warp that destroying Nosgoth was not Kain's intention. He merely didn't want to sacrifice himself without finding out why it had to be. I don't blame him. I wouldn't go jump off a bridge if someone told me to.


To comment on Anubis' last statement, Thinning the herd and getting rid of the herd are two different things. I don't think the vampires would want to resort to feeding on members of their own race. It would become a "Highlander" instance (where there could be only one and they would all hunt each other down). They revere themselves as Vorador commented, "dark gods"

Again, it is not the intention of Vorador, Umah and the Cabal to further push Nosgoth into disaster. You can tell during the events of BO2 that they want to preserve Nosgoth for their own survival. (When they went up against the tyrannical Hylden).

[Anubis_Orr]

I think you misunderstood me on Kain Umah... I said he wasn't affected by Nuprator's blast. However because of the way events played out he was left with a lose-lose situation and neither would allow him to fulfill it's destiny as it should have been.

I'm not saying they'd intentional "get rid of the herd" but ...... [analogy] in predator and prey a careful balance is maintained by lifespan and food source (say you have wolves and deer) the wolves eat the dear and procreate therefore there are more wolves and more deer is necessary to feed the pack and eventually it will get to a point where there aren't enough deer to feed the pack and it will diminish in size and the deer population will bounce back (barring outside interference).[/analogy] Now in a race where all the predators are immortal and cannot die of normal means then there is no balance, vampires would feed on humans and create fledglings making more vampires and needing more "food" all around, there would never be a chance for the human race to bounce back. Now I don't know if vampires die if they don't get blood within a certain period or not, but eventually I believe the humans would be wiped out and the vampires may or may not begin feeding on eachother (who says this isn't what happened during the clan wars that the lieutenants and Kain witnessed).

[warpsavant]

The humans were domesticated, I guess they had vampire farmers raising human babies for food!!

And the Clans at war!! When did that happen? That sounds kind of cool.

[Umah Bloodomen]

Perhaps I did misunderstand what you were saying there, Anubis, but the fact remains that Ariel does in fact state that Kain was affected by the poison in her lament to Raziel.

Originally spoken by Ariel in SR2
When Nupraptor's poison seized Kain even in the safety of the womb, much more than just his destiny was lost. All of Nosgoth lost balance. Consider us now... both of us less than we once were. I pure but insubstantial; and Kain, terribly real, but corrupted.

Again, there are too many unknowns which enable us to speculate in a thousand different ways, doesn't make anything speculated less valid. (Actually I find it fun to hear the many insightful and thought-out ideas).

I like your preadator vs. prey analogy, but you must admit that there are some vamps out there willing to wipe out their food source because of their own lusts for power. Take Sebastian, he strikes me quite arrogant and could care less about anything but saving his own butt (Marcus is the same) hence why they teamed up with the Hylden.

To further comment on this:

Another "unknown" we need to consider reverts back to the vampiric reproduction habits. We don't know how far into the generations, siring can occur, and Kain's method of siring makes him too vulnerable to keep doing it over and over again. On the notion that a vampire can indeed succumb to death without proper nourishment, this poses a threat to the vampire species, giving the humans the chance to bounce back as you said.

[Anubis_Orr]

Yes, but as Raziel says (about Ariel)

Your imprisonment here has deranged you, spirit.
You fixate on Kain because you believe he is the tether that binds you here. But we both know he is not the author of your agony.

As for the human issue, permit me another analogy if I may [analogy]In China wheat is harvested every season and is stockpiled however is all importing stop they would have only enough food to feed their population for 3-6months[/analogy] it's not a matter of trying to wipe out your food source it's just a matter of numbers. Now if all the vampires were masters of discipline I'm sure they could practice the "little drink" but fledglings need blood constantly so I'd tend to discount that.

And the Clans at war!! When did that happen? That sounds kind of cool.

Raziel says it in the instruction manual "We allowed the remains of the legions, the lesser vampires, to have their intrigues. They provided amusement and spice to an incresingly uninspired court. As fact fell against faction we bet upon the outcome. We helped and foiled plots at our whim."

Now they may or may not have fed on their beaten enemies but I would bet that those who lost would be killed because they were weak and were probably culled.

As to their being too many unknowns.... well I've got a plan in the motion to kidnap Amy, I will get the info we seek!
So who wants the life-sized figure of Raziel? I think that's what I'll demand as ransom after I've gotten the information

[Binky]

Wow. Here I go to sleep - and look what I miss out. Well, thanks!


First, the Janos issue.
So you don't think that Janos's death could have been one of the conditions required for the demons to enter Nosgoth (not the reason, merely one of the necessary requirements)?

Because this is whither my speculation about Janos's being symbiotically bound to the other Guardians vaguely led: Janos has just died, the system (superorganism) has just experienced a major shock and needs time to recover homeostasis/balance. Which is why magic is somewhat failing for the other Guardians, daemons can, all of a sudden, enter Nosgoth, Moebius is not omniscient for a second, because he does not know, or care, that Raziel did not kill Kain, Malek arrives at nothing better than a draw in the fight with Vorador (of course, one must remember that by this time other Guardians are dead), and Mortanius is generally missing, perhaps even getting infected with a demon: in a word, interesting times... Well, if no, then OK. One matter solved.



Now, the thing about Kain and his insanity and kids.
Well, there are several subtopics here, and I was afraid that these would get mixed up; and, indeed, they did... Although I - mostly - did get my answers, which is the positive thing.

(First thing - Kain's insanity - first. I don't know about you, but, personally, I love how these lines are alike: (these go from memory, so expect some inaccuracies)
Anacrothe, BO1: The Circle exists for us; we don’t exist for it. Our powers will save or damn Nosgoth at our whim!
Kain, BO1: At my whim the world will be healed or damned. At my whim.
Kain, SR2: The Pillars don't belong to them... they belong to us.
When I first saw that SR2 scene, I couldn't stop laughing.)

No, I don't think there is any doubt that Kain is insane. He admits it, Ariel admits it, the Pillar of Balance is in pretty bad state, he doesn't strike me as a really stable person in BO1 either... (And since SR2, his peculiar attitude cannot be heaped on his vampirism; remember, even Vorador "suffered much." Poor Vorador. Ergh. I now have a bad aftertaste in my mouth. Couldn't at least he remain evil? The simple, unexplained evil?)

Anubis, one thing:

However because of the way events played out he was left with a lose-lose situation and neither would allow him to fulfill it's destiny as it should have been.

I don't think he knew that in the BO1 era, really. I think he stayed because he could, and there was no one to stop him. Because of arrogance or pride or however else you call it, but most certainly not because of any "noble" reason.



Now, passing on to vampires vs. humans (and Lotka-Volterra models, since you mentioned them). I don't know, but I have always had the impression that before Kain, the natural state of being was that there were few vampires and many humans: in BO2's words, vampires preying upon humans. Why? Because once the vampires grew in numbers, the model responded: humans organised the Sarafan crusade. And, after all, in BO1, Vorador appears pretty astonished by seeing Kain.

Now, what happened in Kain's empire? Well, vampires apparently turned from being predators to being cattle breeders, as this quote suggests:

Within a hundred years, humanity had been thoroughly domesticated. To be sure, there remained some feral humans scattered across the hinterlands, clinging to their hopeless holy war to rid Nosgoth of 'the vampire scourge'.

But this is just my opinion; now, passing on to what interested me more: the relationship between the vampires and the land.

And I also dont think that Kain intended for Nosgoth to become a disaster area, I think this just happens and has nothing to do with Kain other than the fact that he refused the sacrifice and blew up some killing machine inside the planet. He did not conciously intend to destroy Nosgoth. I dont think Umah and Co. would either.

Again I agree with warp that destroying Nosgoth was not Kain's intention. He merely didn't want to sacrifice himself without finding out why it had to be. I don't blame him. I wouldn't go jump off a bridge if someone told me to.

I think that here it may be my fault - not explaining clearly: I did not really mean Kain's sacrifice at this point, but the other acts of his vampires:

After the taming of the humans, our real work began: shaping Nosgoth to our will. Around the Pillars, slaves constructed a shrine worthy of our new age, worthy of our new renaissance. Huge furnaces were built to belch smoke into the sky, shielding the land from the poisonous effects of the sun. Never had a world known a time of such beauty.

This coming from Raziel. Now, in SR1, it is only the Elder God who says the things about "the earth trying to shrug off the pestilence of Kain's parasitic empire", Nosgoth's "teetering on the brink of collapse" and its fragile balance not being able to hold. Raziel is more concerned with the decay of the empire than the decay of the land: "The Sanctuary of the Clans, reduced to ruin..." (quotes were from memory again, so again are probably inaccurate)

This led me to believe that the land looked more or less the same in the time of SR1 as of SR1's intro (perhaps minus quakes)... grey sky, obviously treeless, because plants need light; and so on. And obviously, if the manual is to be believed, this was to Raziel's tastes.

Do you see my question better now? If, let's say, Janos, Umah, Vorador, the Cabal vampires, were given Kain's power - not the Balance Guardian power, but the absolute-monarch power, do you think they would start the tree cutting/oil and gas extraction to fuel furnaces to block out sunlight? And they would enjoy the result, for all the possible reasons, from an aesthetical point of view? Not even practical, definitely not moral, I'm not that stupid - but aesthetical?



Onto Kain's passing his insanity to his offspring.

Don't forget to include time factors and other circumstances when you compare different vampires, all of the vampires of SR1 de-evolved not because their lieutenants did but because it was infused into them along with the blood/soul that resurrected them.

I dont think Kain passed his insanity onto his children. Never really thought about it though. Vampirism doesn't equal destructive tendencies, but in the time and place the Lts were created, this would seem to be the most obvious course of action, considering the humans (knowingly and unknowingly) worked with the Hylden.

I agree with warp that Kain could not have passed the insanity off to his offspring. Simply because he doesn't reproduce in the typical manner and I don't believe the poison could possibly affect non-guardians. If it could, then all of humanity would be made nuts. Nupraptor aimed his attack at the guardians because he knew one of them was a traitor and murdered Ariel (beyond a reasonable doubt). If he thought a human committed the act (an ordinary one anyway) I am sure he would have and could have affected the humans in addition to the guardians.

I haven't really thought of this most elementary reason: the poison not affecting non-guardians. So, I thank you, Umah; and I thank you for your opinions.
But, just let me point to one thing: Anubis, that appears to be one of the arguments in my favour, actually... If a whole evolutionary pattern can be transferred with a soul, why would a way of thinking - especially given the "nurture" part in the "nature vs. nurture" discussion - not be?





(And now, the last part. Which is not really pertinent to my initial question; I've just thought of it because of this:

And the Clans at war!! When did that happen? That sounds kind of cool.

Do you really think there have ever been any open wars between the Clans? Or was it all simply plotting and intrigue?

LOL, allow me to explain myself further, because again I have my own goals here. Sorry.

When I have been writing my previous fic, I have wondered a bit how the relations on Kain's court could have looked like. So, I have decided to look into history; and two epochs struck me as the most similar... two epochs with near-omnipotent rulers, powerful ministers and courtiers constantly vying for attention. These were the Roman Empire circa Claudius/Nero, and France under Louis XIII/XIV. And well, people in them both shared more or less the same attitude towards life (people in power, I mean, not the commoners)... They were perfectly refined, cultured, cynical and merciless; they put little value to human life and a lot of thought into the proper etiquette and the preservation of the proper hierarchy; and into aesthetics and intrigue and keeping one's own secrets and learning the secrets of others; careers were made and destroyed by the grace of the rulers, sometimes with a word. So I've reread Dangerous Liaisons and Quo vadis and decided to try to write the vampires the same way the people there are written: bored, uncaring for anything save the interruption of this boredom, that is.


LOL. The little, stupid backstory being finally over: do you think I was more or less right? Or do you think that, quite on the contrary, the conflicts between the Clans were quite open? Any epoch that you would judge as a more fitting analogy?)


Well; thanks once more.

[Umah Bloodomen]

Originally posted by Binky
Wow. Here I go to sleep - and look what I miss out. Well, thanks!


First, the Janos issue.
So you don't think that Janos's death could have been one of the conditions required for the demons to enter Nosgoth (not the reason, merely one of the necessary requirements)?

Because this is whither my speculation about Janos's being symbiotically bound to the other Guardians vaguely led: Janos has just died, the system (superorganism) has just experienced a major shock and needs time to recover homeostasis/balance. Which is why magic is somewhat failing for the other Guardians, daemons can, all of a sudden, enter Nosgoth, Moebius is not omniscient for a second, because he does not know, or care, that Raziel did not kill Kain, Malek arrives at nothing better than a draw in the fight with Vorador (of course, one must remember that by this time other Guardians are dead), and Mortanius is generally missing, perhaps even getting infected with a demon: in a word, interesting times... Well, if no, then OK. One matter solved.

It could play a subtle role in the Hylden/demons being able to return to Nosgoth. The Pillars were what kept the Hylden/demons out, at this point that we know of, Janos was never symbiotically bound to the Reaver - only Raziel was. Now the Reaver serving as the key to the Pillars could be what binds the guardians together and keeps them in check. Let me clarify, with the Reaver in proper guarding order, it would be able to ward off threats such as Hash'ak'gik infiltrating the Circle through Mortanius. Whatever magic it was originally imbued with, the reaver would be able to detect a (Hylden/demon) threat upon the guardians. With the reaver receiving wraith properties, that detection ability stretched to include supernatural threats. When the reaver receiving blood reaving properties, that detection ability was then able to include human threats. Janos dying only lead the reaver falling into the hands of Moebius and the Sarafan. With Raziel existing outside of the blade, the reaver had no magical properties that was intended for it. It couldn't protect the Circle, it was technically a "dead" blade. When Raziel was dragged into the blade (partially) the original properties intended for it were revived (partially). Janos exists only to weild the reaver (because if Raziel was totally sucked in, he would no longer be able to wield the physical blade himself). That power falling into the wrong hands would mean total chaos for Nosgoth and of course its lack of protection. I feel that the power began failing for the guardians because Balance was not in order. Somewhere Ariel wasn't doing her duty. (I'm anxious to find out why).

Originally posted by Binky
Now, the thing about Kain and his insanity and kids.
Well, there are several subtopics here, and I was afraid that these would get mixed up; and, indeed, they did... Although I - mostly - did get my answers, which is the positive thing.

(First thing - Kain's insanity - first. I don't know about you, but, personally, I love how these lines are alike: (these go from memory, so expect some inaccuracies)
Anacrothe, BO1: The Circle exists for us; we don’t exist for it. Our powers will save or damn Nosgoth at our whim!
Kain, BO1: At my whim the world will be healed or damned. At my whim.
Kain, SR2: The Pillars don't belong to them... they belong to us.
When I first saw that SR2 scene, I couldn't stop laughing.)

No, I don't think there is any doubt that Kain is insane. He admits it, Ariel admits it, the Pillar of Balance is in pretty bad state, he doesn't strike me as a really stable person in BO1 either... (And since SR2, his peculiar attitude cannot be heaped on his vampirism; remember, even Vorador "suffered much." Poor Vorador. Ergh. I now have a bad aftertaste in my mouth. Couldn't at least he remain evil? The simple, unexplained evil?)

I agree that Kain is insane for the same reasons. His insanity is the fact he expresses free will. As Balance guardian, one must do what is required to ensure balance is in order, at whatever costs, without question. Kain did not do this, and somehow again, I don't think Ariel (in life) did either. I hope you had a chance to check out my thread about Vorador possibly being a traitor, it proves that one should not pity him too much.
Kain has also been through a lot (hence his attitude) but again his free will gets the best of him and he attempts to put the pieces together and not play a naive pawn. I commend him for that much.

Originally posted by Binky
Now, passing on to vampires vs. humans (and Lotka-Volterra models, since you mentioned them). I don't know, but I have always had the impression that before Kain, the natural state of being was that there were few vampires and many humans: in BO2's words, vampires preying upon humans. Why? Because once the vampires grew in numbers, the model responded: humans organised the Sarafan crusade. And, after all, in BO1, Vorador appears pretty astonished by seeing Kain.

There was once an over-abundance of vampires in Nosgoth. Let us not forget the first set of infamous Vampire Purges (not the ones caused by the altered timeline when Kain killed William the Just). The Sarafan took matters into their own hands and slaughtered the mass because they felt that humanity was in jeopardy. (Don't even get me started on the fanatical warriror priests possibly overimagining and looking for an excuse to wipe out the species ). I don't think that there was a time of few vampires except for when the Ancients died out and during BO2 (with the Cabal being the last of them). Vorador was astonished to see Kain because I am sure he could sense Kain was not of any ancient bloodline and was curious how siring still occurred during these "dark times". I could go back to V being a great actor, but that thread I mentioned earlier will suffice.

Originally posted by Binky
Now, what happened in Kain's empire? Well, vampires apparently turned from being predators to being cattle breeders, as this quote suggests

My guess is that Kain's empire was destroyed by the new Crusades (following the murder of William the Just). That event altered the future and I would assume that after Kain refused the sacrifice, the Sarafan presence was again on the rise which would eventually lead into a certain Hylden wanting to lead them for the course of BO2.

Originally posted by Binky
This coming from Raziel. Now, in SR1, it is only the Elder God who says the things about "the earth trying to shrug off the pestilence of Kain's parasitic empire", Nosgoth's "teetering on the brink of collapse" and its fragile balance not being able to hold. Raziel is more concerned with the decay of the empire than the decay of the land: "The Sanctuary of the Clans, reduced to ruin..." (quotes were from memory again, so again are probably inaccurate)

at that time, Kain is probably the last ancient vampire. What is left of the species is his doing. I think this is what the elder was looking for to lay blame on Kain to make him look like the bad guy in all of this to Raziel. (Remember the naive little blue pawn ). During the time of SR1, I don't think Raziel understood the relationship between Balance of the land. He was still true to the vampire race (until he stumbled into a certain tomb and his views began to change). Then it all became Kain's fault. It wasn't until the course of SR2 that Raziel's eyes began to open about the "bigger picture" including much more at stake than the Clans.

Originally posted by Binky
Do you see my question better now? If, let's say, Janos, Umah, Vorador, the Cabal vampires, were given Kain's power - not the Balance Guardian power, but the absolute-monarch power, do you think they would start the tree cutting/oil and gas extraction to fuel furnaces to block out sunlight? And they would enjoy the result, for all the possible reasons, from an aesthetical point of view? Not even practical, definitely not moral, I'm not that stupid - but aesthetical?

Sheesh, this must be "Umah's time to bash Vorador day" or something. . Vorador is cocky himself. Given the opportunity to achieve the greatness that Kain did, there is no telling what he would do with it. I am sure he too would allow it to go straight to his head though. (Especially if he is the traitor I've speculated in the past). I don't think Umah would do it willingly, but would do whatever necessary to please her sire although keeping heavy reservations about it. Same with the other Cabal members (providing they didn't disband).

Originally posted by Binky
I haven't really thought of this most elementary reason: the poison not affecting non-guardians. So, I thank you, Umah; and I thank you for your opinions.

Anytime, Binky. As I said before, Nupraptor had the power to affect anyone and chose to simply affect the guardians. It's funny how some possible solutions to common problems are laying there right under our noses.

If there were any wars between clans it would involve the Turelim. They seem to be the most confrontational IMO. (And more devoted/like Kain). The Dumahim seemed to have only had conflicts with humans. The Melchiam seemed relatively non-war-like (perhaps when it called for them to be involved in a war they would, but not against their own kind) and the same goes for the Zephonim (who basically seculded themselves in the cathedral. I would compare the Rahabim in the same manner. (Unsure about the Razielim, although I don't believe they would fight with other clans). With the clans reducing in numbers though (and less things to conquer and rule), I would suspect that it would eventually boil down to a good old case of Darwinism. (Survival of the fittest). Meaning that they would then resort to turning on each other and perhaps get cocky enough to (attempt to) take out Kain.


Can't wait to read your fic, Binky. Good luck!

[Anubis_Orr]

I agree that Kain is insane for the same reasons. His insanity is the fact he expresses free will. As Balance guardian, one must do what is required to ensure balance is in order, at whatever costs, without question. Kain did not do this, and somehow again, I don't think Ariel (in life) did either.

Well by that reasoning I guess we're all insane So in a way Nosgoth is his parent and he must do whatever he's told to do for it, personally I don't always do what my parents say, I'm my own person not a slave to do whatever others want of me.

Which is why magic is somewhat failing for the other Guardians, daemons can, all of a sudden, enter Nosgoth, Moebius is not omniscient for a second, because he does not know, or care, that Raziel did not kill Kain, Malek arrives at nothing better than a draw in the fight with Vorador (of course, one must remember that by this time other Guardians are dead), and Mortanius is generally missing, perhaps even getting infected with a demon: in a word, interesting times... Well, if no, then OK. One matter solved.

The Guardians are not made all-powerful by their Guardianship, they like any other inhabitant of Nosgoth are just men, they have been given abilities and magic that no other has but that doesn't make them all powerful. I don't think Moebius is omniscient by any stretch of the imagination, he is one of the oldest members of the Circle and has had ample time to study the timeline and the roles of certain people within it. As for Mortanius I don't believe he was infected so early in the "game" he wouldn't have allowed himself to be a slave to Hash'ak'gik for 530+ years, also remember a certain item the Sarafan just retrieved? I think Mortanius may have been studying the properties of the Heart of Darkness perhaps seeing if what legend said was true.

I don't think he knew that in the BO1 era, really. I think he stayed because he could, and there was no one to stop him. Because of arrogance or pride or however else you call it, but most certainly not because of any "noble" reason.

Kain is the anti-hero, he doesn't do everything because it's the right thing to do, he does it to get revenge on the people that inflicted his now "twisted" existence on him. And personally Kain is far too self-righteous to kill himself under any circumstances, and after seeing the corruption of the land why should he sacrifice himself for a people/land that hates all of what he is, I wouldn't.

Now, what happened in Kain's empire? Well, vampires apparently turned from being predators to being cattle breeders, as this quote suggests

Well, it's a matter of consuming more than you're producing, it's takes 12-14 years to restock your supply at least (the humans breed a generation and then it will be at least that long before the next generation can breed) also see my analogy.

But, just let me point to one thing: Anubis, that appears to be one of the arguments in my favour, actually... If a whole evolutionary pattern can be transferred with a soul, why would a way of thinking - especially given the "nurture" part in the "nature vs. nurture" discussion - not be

I come down heavily on the genetic side of that discussion. And vampires of Kain's generation aren't nurtured, they are ruled tyrannically by Kain and live in fear of him, because on a whim (just like Raziel for instance) he could 'toss 'em into the Abyss and be done with it, and if we find out that Kain killed all the Razelim even better for my point, who would in their rightful mind try to stand up to a guy after he's just killed off an entire clan??

Do you really think there have ever been any open wars between the Clans? Or was it all simply plotting and intrigue?

I'm not saying that there was all-out war between the clans with the goal of wiping the other one out merely that the clans did fight eachother and the lieutenants endorsed it, it entertained them and culled the weak from their ranks, "eternity can be relentless".

[Binky]

Umah, so you are saying that the Ancients intended Raziel to get sucked into the Reaver? So that it would have the demon/Hylden detecting/warding off properties? It's odd: again I didn't think it could be interpreted this way, LOL. I have always assumed that they intended him to wield the blade: since Kain, who appeared to be trying to help Raziel realise this Ancient-intended destiny, pulled the blade out of Raziel. I always thought that it was Moebius, who, working against Raziel, wanted to imprison him in the only place where he could not wield the Reaver - inside the blade.

I have simply always assumed that since the Pillars are a lock to which the Reaver is the key, something must have happened during the raising of the Pillars: the Pillars were created, the Reaver was created; the lock and the key are there; only it takes the proper person to turn the key in the lock, and to close the door to the Hylden dimension completely: Raziel. (To finish with this analogy, as it is now, the door is closed, but not completely locked, and so the Hylden and the demons are not completely Bound.) And I have assumed that it's probably because the Reaver requires a vampire who is not inflicted with the blood curse that makes Raziel so special... And so, furthermore, I have assumed that until Raziel meets Janos in SR2, the Reaver was - well, dormant. Just laying there, doing nothing.

What do you think of this little theory? Could it make any remote sense, or is it just my over-associating of the words "lock", "key" and "banished"?

There was once an over-abundance of vampires in Nosgoth. Let us not forget the first set of infamous Vampire Purges (not the ones caused by the altered timeline when Kain killed William the Just). The Sarafan took matters into their own hands and slaughtered the mass because they felt that humanity was in jeopardy.

That's what I was referring to, actually: the Sarafan jihad, as opposed to Moebius' BO1 one. But the text in BO1 that deals with this implies that this was an exceptional state rather than the normal one: "when vampires grew into such numbers as to attract the attention of the Circle" or something like this (from memory again, I'm too lazy to search for this). And yes, I think that this was just an excuse; more, I suspect that it was an excuse used to kill one particular vampire: Janos... After all, the implication is that once Janos was dead, the crusades stopped: perhaps because the Circle members were dead, and perhaps because Raziel killed off most generals; but perhaps because simply the war fulfilled its role.
Why would anyone want Janos dead? Perhaps because of the Reaver... or to allow Hylden/Hash'ak'gik enter Nosgoth unobserved... or for some other reason.

I don't think that there was a time of few vampires except for when the Ancients died out and during BO2

This warrants discussion of just what "few" means. I did not mean several vampires in the whole of Nosgoth... Just a single vampire here and a single there; few enough so that the people in BO1 would not be terrified of walking alone in the forest, but many enough so that they would be terrified of the vampire numbers being on the rise again.
Let's say a territorial distribution like that of large predatory cats such as tigers/lynxes/pumas. Small "families" here and there, and so on.
But that's just my guess: I simply don't think that even pre-Kain vampires were particularly trustful creatures -and willing to risk humans' recreating the Sarafan order.

at that time, Kain is probably the last ancient vampire. What is left of the species is his doing. I think this is what the elder was looking for to lay blame on Kain to make him look like the bad guy in all of this to Raziel. (Remember the naive little blue pawn ). During the time of SR1, I don't think Raziel understood the relationship between Balance of the land. He was still true to the vampire race (until he stumbled into a certain tomb and his views began to change). Then it all became Kain's fault. It wasn't until the course of SR2 that Raziel's eyes began to open about the "bigger picture" including much more at stake than the Clans.

Here, I was more or less simply trying to point out that Raziel, treading in Nosgoth, does not ever say anything about how the world looks like; only how the vampire buildings look like. Which means that either he is used to seeing Nosgoth look like this, or he simply doesn't care. And yes, I agree that the Elder God is trying to manipulate him; and yes, I do agree that it's only in SR2 that he sees how a world should look like. (There's a really long quote about this, in fact.)

I hope you had a chance to check out my thread about Vorador possibly being a traitor, it proves that one should not pity him too much.

Yes, really nice ideas there. Hopefully some of the speculation comes true. To see the mighty Vorador degenerated into that-kid-stole-my-teddy-werewolf-so-I'm-going-to-be-evil-now is... sad.

Can't wait to read your fic, Binky. Good luck!

Which one? "The Day Janos Audron Died" (Working title, couldn't help myself.) or the other one? If the other one, I've already started writing it, and put up several chapters on FF.net. It's not likely that I will enter it into the contest, since it's little more than an amusing plaything, so if you want to read it now, here it is:
http://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=965825
The only thing is, it is a sequel to the one I could perhaps like to enter... I (obviously) don't know if it's understandable without that one... Or, at least, if it's anything but a cheap SR1 rewrite without it.
So, if you have objections to reading things entered into contests before they are properly submitted, perhaps you should wait. (Is there a shruggin'-me-shoulders icon? No? Pity.)


Anubis,
I agree with your points, mainly, which is why I'm sorry, but I won't answer to them... I just want to say that to me "do it or else you'll burn forever" sounds like quite strong "nurturing". Perhaps not what is usually meant by this word, but!

[warpsavant]

When Janos tells Raziel about the Lock, it seems odd to me that the Reaver is the Key, since the Hylden are already banished....

What could possibly happen with the Reaver at the Pillars when the Hylden are not even in Nosgoth, and can't return? (until kain does his thing-)

Is he going to use the Key to let them out? They can't get into Nosgoth as it is, so why do they need to use the Reaver as a key to lock them out since they are already gone?

No matter what they do, they can't lock the Hylden out, because the Pillar(s) eventually crumble and then U know what happens.

The Key/Lock doesnt make sense to me anymore. I dont know. But I think the Reaver is the key to something else, like Raziels benevolent role or the salvation of the ancient vampires or something deep.

[Anubis_Orr]

Perhaps because of the corruption within the circle and seeping through Nosgoth the lock has become "rusted" and the Reaver can restore it to its original self, thereby ending the intrusion of demons from the other dimension.

[Morte]

Interesting theories.

Here's how I see things:

I don't think Nupraptor willingly infected other guardians with madness, he simply went mad himself, and because of the bond the guardians share, and the intensity of his outrage, others were "infected" with insanity as well.

The Pillars are the very conducts for the primal energies, which drive the existence of Nosgoth itself. But they need something to guide, to direct these energies, since they are just that-energies.
Thus the guardians, to steer the very lifeforce of Nosgoth.
So far so obvious.
However, we must remember that the guardians as we know them, the human guardians, are not those who were intended for this job when the Pillars were erected. They can still direct the pillar force, but in different manner than the Ancients, which are the proper and original pillar force directors.
Connected with this is what bothers me in Umah's post, about the Reaver guarding the guardians.
I believe it is not so, since they are not the original, the intended guardians, and therefore share no bond with the sword, and with the original intention of the Pillars.
This stems from another theory of mine; Before the Banishment and Ancient-Hylden war, I believe Nosgoth was "normal" land, without the Pillars to direct its lifeforce.
Ancients, in order to seal the dimensional portal through which they banished Hylden, somehow tapped into the very flow of existence and magic which "drives" the land, channelling it through the conduits in form of Pillars, using the flow of these energies to seal off this portal.
I imagine this must have been a very complicated and risky operation, in order to maintain the unhindered flow necessary for the normal existence of the land.
It was up to the guardians then into which direction the continuum of Nosgoth would go.
How and in what manner the Reaver serves as the key to this portal, to the pillars, to the lock, remains a mystery, but I suspect something magical in nature, perhaps a shift or redistribution of energies, guided by whoever wields the sword.
For that reason I think the Reaver is not much more than a "key" of some sorts, its role as the protector of guardians further made unlikely because the guardians themselves are no more, at least for the key, since it was never intended for guardians to be humans.

Furthermore, I think that Kain in reality never had any choice in the damnation of Nosgoth, nor was it his doing. As obvious from SR2, it was the Elder god that destroyed the Pillars, not Kain, and this would have probably occured even if he sacrificed himself, since that must have been the Hylden plan from the beginning(not to mention the very high probability that Elder god is somehow connected, allied with them).
From this it seems that Hash'Ak'Gik was never actually the hand wielding a tool, but a tool himself.
It is indeed a devious plan Hylden hatched; if Kain refuses the sacrifice, he prevents any new guardians being born, thus helping the Hylden agenda and they can dump the destruction of Nosgoth's balance and its subsequent decay on him.
If he sacrifices himself, the Pillars are still destroyed by the Elder god, which also prevents the creation of any new guardians and breaks the lock which binds them, destroying the land with its lifeforce at the same time.

This also connects with something warpsavant pointed out; why would the "locking" be needed, if the Hylden are already banished, and the lock still stands(the corruption does not affect the lock itself, since it is only the corruption of the direction into which the forces of Pillars are channeled, the guardians, not the forces themselves)?
Well, perhaps Janos knows something we don't, perhaps he even has some insight into times other than his own.
And there is one very large(pun intended) factor to consider here: the Elder god. From SR2 we learn that he is most likely allied with Hylden in some way, but also some disturbing things about his nature.
His memory and mind does not seem to be affected by the flow of time, as witnessed with Raziel visiting his chamber in different time periods. This alone shows the immense power he wields, and indicates that he exists outside of time. Which raises another interesting question: does he exist outside of space as well?
Allow me to explain. It can also be witnessed in SR2 that his actual body is affected by time, he grows larger over time, while his mind is not affected by it.
This duality of being could be an indicator that his "squid form" is actually just his physical representation in this dimension, while he himself is some insubstantial being with great power, to which barriers between dimensions and flow of time do not apply, since he exists outside of them. That he is not a physical being, but can assume physical form(s) to manifest in these dimensions.
If this is true, than Raziel and Kain have much to worry about, especially considering the Elder-Hylden connection. We can't be certain on his motives on helping the Hylden, or his exact relation with them, but can only suspect that the destruction of Nosgoth would benefit him somehow, on metaphysical level.
Which is quite interesting, as in SR1 he states how the corruption of Nosgoth is actually detrimental to him, blaming it on Kain, when he himself was in fact the generator of this corruption.
Here I would just like to add that the corruption of Nosgoth is not to be mixed with the corruption of Pillar guardians, since that is simply the corruption, redirection of the way into which these energies flow, and can be redirected anytime with the emergence of new guardians, while the decay of Nosgoth is the actual destruction of Pillars, complete detunement and dispersion of these energies, irreversible(and also opening of the interdimensional portal, since these energies were keeping it closed with their flow).
So the corruption of guardians did not actually affect the lock itself, just the land.
In that context the key could be used to hinder Elder god somehow, although the key is of course useless, if the lock itself, the Pillars, is broken.

Regarding the balance of humans/vampires in Nosgoth; I think that this is naturally evened out, so that humans(the prey) always outnumber the vampires(the predators).
That is if the natural order is maintained, which was toppled during the rise of Kain's empire, when the pressure of the predator on the prey was increased to such extent, that the numbers were actually reversed.
But that was offset artificially-vampires bred humans as cattle, in same manner as we breed livestock for food, as opposed to hunting it in the wilderness, since the population of humans has grown so large.
It was similair, I believe, during Kain's empire and "explosion" of the vampire populace.
And even then, there were some groups of humans still independantly existing, even fighting the vampires. True, they were small group when compared to the vampiric population, but they were there nonetheless.

I must must disagree on Kain being insane, though, but insanity is a very subjective term to begin with.
In my opinion, he was simply fed up with being constantly used as a pawn, having to follow others' rules all the time, so he just became indifferent to everything, determined to not be anyone's pawn anymore.
And what better way to ensure this, than to become the strongest, the one with most power and knowledge, surveying everything that happens in land, which becomes now his own. To become a puppetmaster himself, the highest power.
And from this point is also where all his conflicts with Vorador rises from. Vorador was partial to "old ways", for the vampires to lurk in the shadows, preying upon humans when needed, while leaving the land and political squabbles to them, remaining the creatures of myths and nightmares, thus leading their life largely unaffected by affairs of humans, existing in their shades.
Kain, on the other hand was for a much more direct approach, he wanted for the vampires to become the ruling power in the land and dominant species, virtually reducing humans to nothing more than cattle.
So I think Vorador never intended for Kain to rise to power, primarily for this reason, because he wanted to maintain the old order of things, not to mention that once becoming the supreme ruler, Kain would most likely not tolerate someone as powerful as Vorador, a threat to his position.
From this I conclude that the possibly violent conflict between them is very likely to occur in BO3.
Also, it was this separation of views, which I believe was Umah's eventual downfall. I think it was Vorador, that put the idea of Kain caring for none but his empire and power into her head, convincing her, and solely responsible for her betrayal of Kain. Perhaps he thought if someone of his loyal minions would defeat the Sarafan lord with the Nexus stone, the balance of power would shift significantly into his favour.
Him withholding information from Kain also point to this(when he did not tell Kain that Sarafan lord used the Nexus stone in their battle until it was absolutely necessary), and indicates that he planned to use Kain as nothing more than a tool.


Binky, using the analogy of Louis the XIV's French court for the Kain's court is very appropiate, I think. Although they were probably not plotting against each other, as they were directing their clans, or at least parts of them, into open conflicts, and then observing the results.
I think lower-ranking vampires took this pretty seriously, while higher ranking generals and clan leaders themselves looked upon it as what it actually was: a very bloody sport, nothing more.
I don't think the brothers were actually that hostile against each other, but they probably didn't care that much either.
It was a supreme tyranny, however, as can be seen in SR1 intro, in the shocked expressions on Raziel's brothers' faces, as Kain rips his wings off, but they still follow his orders and cast him in the Abyss, knowing that same fate would befall them if they disobey.

[Umah Bloodomen]

Originally posted by Morte
Interesting theories.

Here's how I see things:

I don't think Nupraptor willingly infected other guardians with madness, he simply went mad himself, and because of the bond the guardians share, and the intensity of his outrage, others were "infected" with insanity as well.

Nupraptor more than knew what he was doing when he psychically attacked his fellow guardians. There had been many suspicions leading him to believe that there was a traitor amongst them for the longest time. When Ariel was assassinated by he hands of the necromancer, Mortanius, that was the "final" straw. Ariel even knew of the traitor. My guess is that there were a lot of skeletons in the closets of the three that survived Vorador's attack (Mortanius, Moebius Malek), which later ended up resurfacing for their successors. (Ariel, Bane, Dejoule, Lady Azimuth, Anacrothe and Nupraptor).

Originally posted by Morte
The Pillars are the very conducts for the primal energies, which drive the existence of Nosgoth itself. But they need something to guide, to direct these energies, since they are just that-energies.
Thus the guardians, to steer the very lifeforce of Nosgoth.
So far so obvious.
However, we must remember that the guardians as we know them, the human guardians, are not those who were intended for this job when the Pillars were erected. They can still direct the pillar force, but in different manner than the Ancients, which are the proper and original pillar force directors.
Connected with this is what bothers me in Umah's post, about the Reaver guarding the guardians.
I believe it is not so, since they are not the original, the intended guardians, and therefore share no bond with the sword, and with the original intention of the Pillars.
This stems from another theory of mine; Before the Banishment and Ancient-Hylden war, I believe Nosgoth was "normal" land, without the Pillars to direct its lifeforce.
Ancients, in order to seal the dimensional portal through which they banished Hylden, somehow tapped into the very flow of existence and magic which "drives" the land, channelling it through the conduits in form of Pillars, using the flow of these energies to seal off this portal.
I imagine this must have been a very complicated and risky operation, in order to maintain the unhindered flow necessary for the normal existence of the land.
It was up to the guardians then into which direction the continuum of Nosgoth would go.
How and in what manner the Reaver serves as the key to this portal, to the pillars, to the lock, remains a mystery, but I suspect something magical in nature, perhaps a shift or redistribution of energies, guided by whoever wields the sword.
For that reason I think the Reaver is not much more than a "key" of some sorts, its role as the protector of guardians further made unlikely because the guardians themselves are no more, at least for the key, since it was never intended for guardians to be humans.

I will have to both agree and disagree with you for a moment, Morte. The Pillars were made for and by the Ancients. They were to be the race that weilded their energy - this is agreeed. But because the Ancients died out, the Pillars chose new guardians from a species that could reproduce properly. (The Humans). This is a classic example of adaptation for something to fit in with its surroundings in order to survive. The Humans are the surrogate "force directors". I don't think they weild the power differently persay, but perhaps not as efficiently is a better choice of a word. With humans assuming the role of "surrogate force directors" then the magic and energy instilled in their Pillars could quite possibly not up-to-Ancient standards. If this is the case, then the Pillars were always vulnerable to attack ever since the Ancient race (with the exception of Janos Audron) died out.

It does not matter if the human guardians have a bond with the Reaver. I never questioned that, heck, I don't believe they ever could have an actual bond with the Reaver in the same manner as they do with their individual Pillar. But you need to remember that the Reaver was also given its own energy and purpose upon its creation by the Ancients and would have to fufill it as long as the blade existed in one form or another. This is where we get Raziel's role as "messiah". He was given his destiny, parts of that destiny were altered (ancient guardians becoming human guardians) his destiny would naturally also have to change to accomodate this. Providing my theory of the reaver guarding the guardians is true, the reaver does not have a choice in fufilling its purpose, no matter what species the guardians are. The Pillars chose to change, the reaver has to deal with that. This (is what I feel) was what was intended for it.

Your statement of Nosgoth being a "normal land" is quite open at this point. This delves back deep into the "unknown scenarios" that I keep mentioning and adding to as time progresses. Did we ever stop to think that the Ancients were the ones originally directing the lifeforce of Nosgoth? If this were the case, (and this is my speculations here - don't confuse with fact) then there would be no need for the Pillars at all. The Ancients would be the living embodiment of what Nosgoth needs to survive and maintain its homeostasic ways. Now we bring in the Hylden, which we currently believe to be the only known threat to the Ancient race. They start a war, the ancients begin suffering and dying off, thus Nosogth's lifeforce is threatened and the land begins suffering because of it. In a desperate hope to preserve the land, the genesis of the Pillars occurred (kind of like a living will actually where the intentions of a dying race could leave their mark on the world and have it so) and the Hylden were banished. The power of Nosgoth's lifeforce obviously being transferred to the glorious Pillars where it resides for an eternity (until the corruption of the Circle).

The reaver being the key is an abstract statement - I feel serves more as a metaphorical meaning than a concrete one. How else can you figure that the reaver would serve as a key? As you said yourself, "it's a mystery". It keeps the guardians in check, makes sure that nothing threatens them or their purpose for upholding and wielding the powers to preserve Nosgoth. Sure, this falls into my "unknowns" category at this point, but I find it to be rather logical myself. Again, the Pillars changed the plan, the reaver has no choice but to accept it. Thats how their relationship works. The guardians are no more as you say, because they can't choose the new successors until Kain gives up his "free will" charade and sacrifices himself. That is what is intended for him. Until that happens, there is no Balance in Nosgoth.

Originally posted by Morte
Furthermore, I think that Kain in reality never had any choice in the damnation of Nosgoth, nor was it his doing. As obvious from SR2, it was the Elder god that destroyed the Pillars, not Kain, and this would have probably occured even if he sacrificed himself, since that must have been the Hylden plan from the beginning(not to mention the very high probability that Elder god is somehow connected, allied with them).
From this it seems that Hash'Ak'Gik was never actually the hand wielding a tool, but a tool himself.
It is indeed a devious plan Hylden hatched; if Kain refuses the sacrifice, he prevents any new guardians being born, thus helping the Hylden agenda and they can dump the destruction of Nosgoth's balance and its subsequent decay on him.
If he sacrifices himself, the Pillars are still destroyed by the Elder god, which also prevents the creation of any new guardians and breaks the lock which binds them, destroying the land with its lifeforce at the same time.

Kain did have a choice and he made it, which totally through the Pillars out of whack. I still believe that Kain's free will was the result of Nupraptor's attack and Kain's apparent corruption as the guardian of Balance. I beg to differ on the "Elder ruining the Pillar" theory you have there. There was no evidence of the Elder at the time Kain refused the sacrifice. The Elder also plays it off that he has resided beneath the Pillars for milennias upon millenias. He is yet another "unknown" in this story. We don't yet know where he came from, how he got here or who he truly is. In SR2, Squiddy gets cocky - real cocky. He says he can destroy what he created and has taken the credit for everything but the kitchen sink. This is his ploy to continue to lure Raziel (the messiah) to the darkside. I still feel that Hash'ak'gik is just a spiritual manefestation of the Elder. As Raziel so coyly put it:

"And if Moebius knew he were worshipping a giant squid, do you think his faith would falter?"

Moebius (and Azimuth) were devoute followers of Hash'ak'gik and his fanatical religion and ways. The association between Hash and the Elder was made quite clear when Raziel said that.

Your last statement concerning Squiddy there makes you sound like you believe Squiddy is also a Balance Guardian. Tell me, we know the Ancients created the Pillars, how can Squiddy (who never revealed himself prior to SR1 and SR2) keep damning the Pillars and Nosgoth, if Kain kills himself and plays out his role of balance guardian. The Pillars would be allowed to choose his successor and replenish the Circle. The only way that Squiddy could prevent this is to blow up Nosgoth or just simply wipe the humans out which would cause the Pillars to again adapt and go for the next species down the line. (Just as they did from the Ancients to the humans in the first place). So far I am not impressed by the "all talk no action" ways of Squiddy. Sure he sounds all mean and convincing, but when it comes down to it, there just isn't any evidence to show how big and bad he can be.

Originally posted by Morte
This also connects with something warpsavant pointed out; why would the "locking" be needed, if the Hylden are already banished, and the lock still stands(the corruption does not affect the lock itself, since it is only the corruption of the direction into which the forces of Pillars are channeled, the guardians, not the forces themselves)?

Perhaps because the lock isn't the same. You have to remember, Raziel is the reaver, but the reaver isn't quite itself lately, it's not totally a physical blade, it's seperated at the core.

Originally posted by Morte
Well, perhaps Janos knows something we don't, perhaps he even has some insight into times other than his own.

You think? I think Janos is holding out on a big piece of the puzzle that should he reveal it, will make the Ancients not look as divine as they are perceived. Somewhere, they screwed something up and Janos most certainly does not want to admit fault.

Originally posted by Morte
And there is one very large(pun intended) factor to consider here: the Elder god. From SR2 we learn that he is most likely allied with Hylden in some way, but also some disturbing things about his nature.
His memory and mind does not seem to be affected by the flow of time, as witnessed with Raziel visiting his chamber in different time periods. This alone shows the immense power he wields, and indicates that he exists outside of time. Which raises another interesting question: does he exist outside of space as well?
Allow me to explain. It can also be witnessed in SR2 that his actual body is affected by time, he grows larger over time, while his mind is not affected by it.
This duality of being could be an indicator that his "squid form" is actually just his physical representation in this dimension, while he himself is some insubstantial being with great power, to which barriers between dimensions and flow of time do not apply, since he exists outside of them. That he is not a physical being, but can assume physical form(s) to manifest in these dimensions.
If this is true, than Raziel and Kain have much to worry about, especially considering the Elder-Hylden connection. We can't be certain on his motives on helping the Hylden, or his exact relation with them, but can only suspect that the destruction of Nosgoth would benefit him somehow, on metaphysical level.

I do think that Squiddy can exist outside of space and more specificially, dimension. (Hey, lookie here, an Azmiuth connection ). Very interesting how you spoke of his mind never changing eventhough everything else basically has. I think that his squid form is again the physical representation of Hash'ak'gik (for reasons which I touched on above). If he is an "insubstatial being" as you say, I know of a specific Dark Entity that he could be associated with back in his own dimension and briefly (in order to move about more efficiently and weigh the opinions of his followers in Nosgoth). Indeed Kain and Raziel have much to worry about if my Hash'ak'gik theory proves true. All hell could be breaking loose in the near future. Hash/Squiddy is merely playing his cards right until the perfect time then BAM! He unleashes his true wrath. The Elder/Hash connection is this IMO:

The Hylden were banished to the demonic dimension - Hash'ak'gik's demonic dimension. There Hash saw an opportunity to instill his beliefs and take it over (classic example of world dominance) and struck up an alliegence with the Hylden and made the loophole which allowed the Hylden return for BO2. (Murdering Ariel let the guard of the Pillar guardians down and distracted them so he could make his move and help the Hylden return for their revenge). My question is, what does (if anything) Hash/Squiddy get out of the deal?

Originally posted by Morte
Which is quite interesting, as in SR1 he states how the corruption of Nosgoth is actually detrimental to him, blaming it on Kain, when he himself was in fact the generator of this corruption.
Here I would just like to add that the corruption of Nosgoth is not to be mixed with the corruption of Pillar guardians, since that is simply the corruption, redirection of the way into which these energies flow, and can be redirected anytime with the emergence of new guardians, while the decay of Nosgoth is the actual destruction of Pillars, complete detunement and dispersion of these energies, irreversible(and also opening of the interdimensional portal, since these energies were keeping it closed with their flow).
So the corruption of guardians did not actually affect the lock itself, just the land.
In that context the key could be used to hinder Elder god somehow, although the key is of course useless, if the lock itself, the Pillars, is broken.

This is a classic example of Squiddy BS'ing his way to persuade our hero, Raziel to follow him and do his bidding. Raziel has already been established as being really naive and gulliable. We've noticed a change in him since SR2 (especially after Kain began opening his eyes to the bigger picture). Squiddy did cause the corruption, sorry, he assisted in the corruption, Nupraptor corrupted it, Squiddy just set the ball in motion (again pointing back to Hash being Squiddy). Kain merely polished it off for him (destroying the other guardians at the request of Ariel) makes you wonder who she's aligned with? (I always knew there was more to her than what met the eye ). Your clarification here is supurb! I agree that the key is useless if the lock is broken. Heal the lock (kill Kain or at least have Kain die somehow) restore the lock, then use the key (to destroy Squiddy) if this is the case. The Pillars are corrupted, but only as a result of their guardians being corrupted (and/or dead). I enjoy your analogy of them being innocent bystanders, only fufilling what was intended of them while suffering because they have no one to wield their energy.

Originally posted by Morte
Regarding the balance of humans/vampires in Nosgoth; I think that this is naturally evened out, so that humans(the prey) always outnumber the vampires(the predators).
That is if the natural order is maintained, which was toppled during the rise of Kain's empire, when the pressure of the predator on the prey was increased to such extent, that the numbers were actually reversed.
But that was offset artificially-vampires bred humans as cattle, in same manner as we breed livestock for food, as opposed to hunting it in the wilderness, since the population of humans has grown so large.
It was similair, I believe, during Kain's empire and "explosion" of the vampire populace.
And even then, there were some groups of humans still independantly existing, even fighting the vampires. True, they were small group when compared to the vampiric population, but they were there nonetheless.

I will agree with this, although I am sure there were a few times that the humans were outnumbered by the vamps but eventually restored the balance between the species (with a purge here and there ). My question is, what exactly is Nosgoth's natural order? Is it humanity or vampires (or what was formerly ancients). Again yet another "unknown" which I hope to have explored.

Originally posted by Morte
I must must disagree on Kain being insane, though, but insanity is a very subjective term to begin with.
In my opinion, he was simply fed up with being constantly used as a pawn, having to follow others' rules all the time, so he just became indifferent to everything, determined to not be anyone's pawn anymore.

Kain isn't insane, but he is corrupted. He was corrupted in the womb with Nupraptor's madness. I again resort back to believing the evidence of this is Kain's expressed free will (especially when he refused the sacrifice). I do also agree that he was fed up and is fed up with being the pawn and wants to expose the truth at all costs now. Again another example of his rebellion and free will.

Originally posted by Morte
And what better way to ensure this, than to become the strongest, the one with most power and knowledge, surveying everything that happens in land, which becomes now his own. To become a puppetmaster himself, the highest power.
And from this point is also where all his conflicts with Vorador rises from. Vorador was partial to "old ways", for the vampires to lurk in the shadows, preying upon humans when needed, while leaving the land and political squabbles to them, remaining the creatures of myths and nightmares, thus leading their life largely unaffected by affairs of humans, existing in their shades.
Kain, on the other hand was for a much more direct approach, he wanted for the vampires to become the ruling power in the land and dominant species, virtually reducing humans to nothing more than cattle.

Well said, although we need to remember that Vorador was once like Kain - power hungry and whatnot. It wasn't until after the death of his sire that he gave up and became a recluse, choosing to become indifferent to the vampire heritage. He simply didn't care. We've seen a brief glimpse into the power hungry Vorador in BO2, when he was devoted to the vampire cause again (only I still think it was for traitorous reasons ) He didn't run and hide and he more than threw his two cents in where necessary. I believe he did this before Janos was murdered as well. Remember, he even comments on the "fairytale" nature of the Ancients and their cause etc. in SR2. He struck me as abandoning the old ways and chosing his own lonely path of existence. (While remaining a traitor - you need to check that thread out, I really don't trust Vorador all that much and I love his character so much more because of it). Vorador once tried the way of coexisting with the humans and it got him nowhere - except sireless of course. This is when he turned his back and could care less.

Originally posted by Morte
So I think Vorador never intended for Kain to rise to power, primarily for this reason, because he wanted to maintain the old order of things, not to mention that once becoming the supreme ruler, Kain would most likely not tolerate someone as powerful as Vorador, a threat to his position.
From this I conclude that the possibly violent conflict between them is very likely to occur in BO3.
Also, it was this separation of views, which I believe was Umah's eventual downfall. I think it was Vorador, that put the idea of Kain caring for none but his empire and power into her head, convincing her, and solely responsible for her betrayal of Kain. Perhaps he thought if someone of his loyal minions would defeat the Sarafan lord with the Nexus stone, the balance of power would shift significantly into his favour.
Him withholding information from Kain also point to this(when he did not tell Kain that Sarafan lord used the Nexus stone in their battle until it was absolutely necessary), and indicates that he planned to use Kain as nothing more than a tool.

The only one who predicted Kain's rise to power was Hash'ak'gik which is why (in the form of Mortanius) he orchestrated him to be murdered outside of the Ziegsturhl tavern. This was the catalyst which was supposed to play in Hash's favor until Kain began exerting a rebellious nature and the free will. Raziel comments in SR2 that Moebius (the spy of the Elder) and the Elder are now off guard and making their plan up as they go along. They never counted on Kain ending up the way he did, or doing the things he did. Kain took the upperhand. Vorador was never a threat to Kain's position, Vorador didn't care. Sure he vented about it, but he didn't stop it, he even helped Kain dispose of the Paladin, Malek. Not something a person would do if they opposed Kain IMO. (See, told you he was a traitor ). There's always been and always will be a conflict between Vorador and Kain. Their arrogance is well played each time they are brought together. Kain comments in BO2 about not trusting him either. (traitor).

Umah's downfall was the fact she wanted to play the hero. She wanted to look good for her sire and try to dispose of the Sarafan Lord on her own. She was naive and undisciplined and it ended up getting her killed. (Remind me to post my Umah character thesis for you). I think you are backwards on what Vorador instilled into Umah's head. Vorador most likely convinced his daughter that Kain's arrogance and power-hungry nature would mean the end of Nosgoth and the vampire race all together. This gave her reason to steal the Nexus stone from Kain's chest, and go on about how he would turn his back on the Cabal and the vampires, implying he would betray them for his own selfish nature.

Vorador withholding information not only proves Kain was a tool, but it proves Vorador was a traitor. He wanted to get rid of Kain so nothing would stand in the dark forces' way. Check out the Vorador: Something fishy going on with this one thread. Its rather insightful.

On that note, I think I am done rambling.

[Anubis_Orr]

Perhaps because the lock isn't the same. You have to remember, Raziel is the reaver, but the reaver isn't quite itself lately, it's not totally a physical blade, it's seperated at the core.

*Brainstorm* That's exactly right Umah! I don't know how that slipped past me.... Raziel is the Reaver, therefore Raziel is the key! He's the solution to the Ancients problem and possibly the only one who can restore the Pillars to their pristine state... interesting, must give this more though

Well said, although we need to remember that Vorador was once like Kain - power hungry and whatnot. It wasn't until after the death of his sire that he gave up and became a recluse, choosing to become indifferent to the vampire heritage. He simply didn't care. We've seen a brief glimpse into the power hungry Vorador in BO2, when he was devoted to the vampire cause again (only I still think it was for traitorous reasons ) He didn't run and hide and he more than threw his two cents in where necessary. I believe he did this before Janos was murdered as well. Remember, he even comments on the "fairytale" nature of the Ancients and their cause etc. in SR2. He struck me as abandoning the old ways and chosing his own lonely path of existence. (While remaining a traitor - you need to check that thread out, I really don't trust Vorador all that much and I love his character so much more because of it). Vorador once tried the way of coexisting with the humans and it got him nowhere - except sireless of course. This is when he turned his back and could care less.

Vorador has been broken time and again.... his companions murdered again and again, then Janos taken at the hands of the Sarafan. In BO1 he's lost all will to survive until he meets Kain who I think revives a sense of passion within him. Everything has been cruelly stripped away from him leaving him an empty cynical shell of his former self.

[FierceClaw]

Wow, these are some of the longest posts I've seen.

There's something important about Kain's decision regarding the sacrifice that I'm not sure about: when Kain made his decision, did the pillars decay naturally over time, or did they fall instantly? If they fell instantly, something really weird is going on since a decision like that isn't final, and can be reversed at any time if Kain decides to commit suicide. Additionally, since the pillars are tall enough to make it impossible to see their tops from the ground, what happened to the parts that broke off? Did they come crashing down on people, or did they just disappear since the pillars are magical?

[Anubis_Orr]

I believe they all fell down (as seen in the BO2 video) and then I think Kain stood them up again to use as the base of his empire. (SR intro)

[Binky]

Well. I think I stand in a quite different position on the Reaver issue.

When Janos tells Raziel about the Lock, it seems odd to me that the Reaver is the Key, since the Hylden are already banished....

He says: "The Binding must be secured". Secured, as in effected, made certain, ensured; made firm or fast. I don't know, but to me this suggests that the Pillars were somewhat of a rush job, and the Reaver was to make everything absolutely, positively 100% Hylden-proof.

Remember that at least the SR2 murals suggest that the Pillars were erected before the blood curse; yet for the curse to be cast, some Hylden had to be still in Nosgoth! We seem to arrive at a curious impasse here; a feeling augmented by the BO2 dialogue between TSL and Janos.
(The obvious exit from this impasse is to assume that the banishment of the Hylden wasn't instantaneous: probably the weakest of them were banished first, and only then, the stronger: just as the rift that allowed TSL to enter Nosgoth admitted only few Hylden, and not all of them at once. But that's beyond the point.)

Anyway, what I meant was that the Pillars were probably erected when the vampires did not yet know they would be cursed: so, perhaps, LOL, they just wanted to build in an additional security; a key whose energy would be supplied not by the potentially fallible Guardians, but by the elemental powers of Nosgoth itself. If I could built a security override independent of the "human (or vampire, as the case may be) factor" into a system, I certainly would: in both the Three-Mile Island and the Chernobyl accidents, it was the human who failed, after all.

So, in a sense, the Reaver would be "guarding the Guardians", just like Umah's theory goes. Only that I don't really believe that it was ever given the chance to work at all... Because the Hylden's curse intruded, and - hmm, how to put it plainly? - OK, I know: the vampire who was to implement the Reaver was no longer compatible with the requisite profile of the Reaver's user. So the vampires were stuck with an almost-working lock, and a powerful, but useless key. And a prophecy.

And this is what I believe Raziel is doing now: activating the Reaver (or rather, the wraith blade, which is pretty odd in its own way) in the various forges... my guess is to eventually travel to some distant future/past... well, some time and to seal the Pillars with elemental, as opposed to "conceptual", powers. (Of course, only to learn at the end of this all that TSL was telling the truth and the Hylden were the good... well, least bad, ones all the time. Heh.)



Now, just a small note, which, oddly enough, is factual as opposed to speculation:

And even then, there were some groups of humans still independantly existing, even fighting the vampires. True, they were small group when compared to the vampiric population, but they were there nonetheless.

But only because the vampires allowed them to - for fun. (SR1 manual)

Morte, thanks for supporting my analogy with Le Roi Soleil's court:

It was a supreme tyranny, however, as can be seen in SR1 intro, in the shocked expressions on Raziel's brothers' faces, as Kain rips his wings off, but they still follow his orders and cast him in the Abyss, knowing that same fate would befall them if they disobey.

According to Raziel, this weren't even "shocked expressions", LOL: rather, the "ephemeral thrill" of a new experience. In other words, I don't feel the least sorry for Dumah.

[Morte]

I prepared a really in-depth reply to Umah's post, but I can't post it, it says I included too many images in my post, where in fact, there were none.
Damn it!



Could this be because of the quote tags?
Any ideas on how to mend this, because I really want to post this reply?

[Anubis_Orr]

Well if you still have it in your browser just highlight half of it and cut it then post what's left, and then make another post for the last half.

[Edit]Btw if it's that long try to break it into paragraphs..... makes it easier to read and assimilate

[Morte]

Originally posted by Umah Bloodomen


Nupraptor more than knew what he was doing when he psychically attacked his fellow guardians. There had been many suspicions leading him to believe that there was a traitor amongst them for the longest time. When Ariel was assassinated by he hands of the necromancer, Mortanius, that was the "final" straw. Ariel even knew of the traitor. My guess is that there were a lot of skeletons in the closets of the three that survived Vorador's attack (Mortanius, Moebius Malek), which later ended up resurfacing for their successors. (Ariel, Bane, Dejoule, Lady Azimuth, Anacrothe and Nupraptor).

Perhaps, but I still think that his attack was not a planned one. Because of the connection between the guardians, and his position as the Pillar of the mind(oh, the irony) he could easily influence the other guardians.
When Ariel was killed he went mad with pain and anger, sewing his eyes shut and generally lashing out as he descended into madness, thus corrupting the others.

I will have to both agree and disagree with you for a moment, Morte. The Pillars were made for and by the Ancients. They were to be the race that weilded their energy - this is agreeed. But because the Ancients died out, the Pillars chose new guardians from a species that could reproduce properly. (The Humans). This is a classic example of adaptation for something to fit in with its surroundings in order to survive. The Humans are the surrogate "force directors". I don't think they weild the power differently persay, but perhaps not as efficiently is a better choice of a word. With humans assuming the role of "surrogate force directors" then the magic and energy instilled in their Pillars could quite possibly not up-to-Ancient standards. If this is the case, then the Pillars were always vulnerable to attack ever since the Ancient race (with the exception of Janos Audron) died out.

It does not matter if the human guardians have a bond with the Reaver. I never questioned that, heck, I don't believe they ever could have an actual bond with the Reaver in the same manner as they do with their individual Pillar. But you need to remember that the Reaver was also given its own energy and purpose upon its creation by the Ancients and would have to fufill it as long as the blade existed in one form or another. This is where we get Raziel's role as "messiah". He was given his destiny, parts of that destiny were altered (ancient guardians becoming human guardians) his destiny would naturally also have to change to accomodate this. Providing my theory of the reaver guarding the guardians is true, the reaver does not have a choice in fufilling its purpose, no matter what species the guardians are. The Pillars chose to change, the reaver has to deal with that. This (is what I feel) was what was intended for it.

Your statement of Nosgoth being a "normal land" is quite open at this point. This delves back deep into the "unknown scenarios" that I keep mentioning and adding to as time progresses. Did we ever stop to think that the Ancients were the ones originally directing the lifeforce of Nosgoth? If this were the case, (and this is my speculations here - don't confuse with fact) then there would be no need for the Pillars at all. The Ancients would be the living embodiment of what Nosgoth needs to survive and maintain its homeostasic ways. Now we bring in the Hylden, which we currently believe to be the only known threat to the Ancient race. They start a war, the ancients begin suffering and dying off, thus Nosogth's lifeforce is threatened and the land begins suffering because of it. In a desperate hope to preserve the land, the genesis of the Pillars occurred (kind of like a living will actually where the intentions of a dying race could leave their mark on the world and have it so) and the Hylden were banished. The power of Nosgoth's lifeforce obviously being transferred to the glorious Pillars where it resides for an eternity (until the corruption of the Circle).

The reaver being the key is an abstract statement - I feel serves more as a metaphorical meaning than a concrete one. How else can you figure that the reaver would serve as a key? As you said yourself, "it's a mystery". It keeps the guardians in check, makes sure that nothing threatens them or their purpose for upholding and wielding the powers to preserve Nosgoth. Sure, this falls into my "unknowns" category at this point, but I find it to be rather logical myself. Again, the Pillars changed the plan, the reaver has no choice but to accept it. Thats how their relationship works. The guardians are no more as you say, because they can't choose the new successors until Kain gives up his "free will" charade and sacrifices himself. That is what is intended for him. Until that happens, there is no Balance in Nosgoth.

Indeed, the humans were "surrogate guardians", as you put it, I never claimed otherwise. The enrgies of the Pillars had to adapt to choose new directors of their power, power which shapes the land itself. But in doing so, the Pillars' primary purpose was lost to these new guardians; the purpose of being the lock. Human guardians had no knowledge of the Pillars being the lock(Moebius' plotting aside), they only thought the Pillars were there to "guide" the land, which was their secondary meaning. Remember, Pillars were erected for the purpose of locking Hylden from this dimension by implementing the very elemental force of the land, which in turn had for consequence that this force could be controlled through the Pillars, putting the original guardians in position of twofold responsibility: making certain the lock stays in place, and preventing the elemental energies to take the wrong path, since the life of the land was now bound to the Pillars.
Yes, this in itself put the human guardians at a disadvantage, since they do not know that they should be preserving the lock, and are therefore vulnerable to attacks of anyone, who would seek to free the Hylden(in our case the Elder god, who I think was still personally responsible for the destruction of Pillars and Hylden liberation, more about this in a minute).

Now I agree with you about the purpose of reaver being the key, this can especially be seen when Janos says to Raziel that it was he(Raziel) who was destined to wield it. I think the sword and Raziel are both key in this sense, and not just because Raziel is a part of the sort, it has to be him who wields it, in order to operate the lock, which is of course a magical, insubstantial construct, elemental forces of the land, or rather their flow through the Pillars.
I also think that it is actual Raziel's soul which matters, not his body, he must have been someone important reincarnated in the body of human named Raziel, or perhaps even a sentient magical force, whose memories were erased as it took the physical form of human Raziel and subsequently vampire Raziel(not to say it did not took a physical form before, during the time of Ancients, but if it did, it has no recollection of it now, in this form).
I also agree with you on the notion of Reaver not being the physical key, but I don't think it has just the abstract meaning of guarding the guardians. I believe it is magically intuned with the elemental powers which run through the Pillars and represent the lock. The key can tap into these powers and somehow(and that is a big "how" right there) redirect or shift these primal energies, so the portal to the dimension where Hylden are is sealed/unsealed, therefore locking/unlocking the lock in a manner.
I think you are mistaking the Pillar guardians for the Pillars themselves by saying that Reaver's destiny is to protect them. The Reaver is bound to the Pillars, not to the guardians. Guardians exist because of the Pillars, not the other way around(statement of Azimuth, I think, in BO1 which claims just the opposite is only the arrogance and power obssession of that guardian, and not the actual state of things).
Like I said, the Pillars' primary purpose was to lock out the Hylden by providing physical conduit(the Pillars) for the energies of the land. The side-effect of this was that these energies could now be manipulated, guided by the guardians, which Pillars themselves choose, in order to preserve order.
So Reaver is not actually bound to preserve the guardians, which are just energy directors, but the energies themselves, the Pillars, the lock.
I don't think the Ancients themselves were the conveyors of elemental energies, as you state, since in my opinion no living being that is bound to the land and limited by it can convey these enrgies in such a manner, even the Pillar guardians don't actually convey the energy, Pillars do, they just direct the path which this energy takes.
Like I said in previous post, I think the Ancients built the Pillars and bound the elements to them to lock the interdimensional portal, but in doing so made these elemental energies of the land vulnerable to any attack on the Pillars.



[QUOTE] Kain did have a choice and he made it, which totally through the Pillars out of whack. I still believe that Kain's free will was the result of Nupraptor's attack and Kain's apparent corruption as the guardian of Balance. I beg to differ on the "Elder ruining the Pillar" theory you have there. There was no evidence of the Elder at the time Kain refused the sacrifice. The Elder also plays it off that he has resided beneath the Pillars for milennias upon millenias. He is yet another "unknown" in this story. We don't yet know where he came from, how he got here or who he truly is. In SR2, Squiddy gets cocky - real cocky. He says he can destroy what he created and has taken the credit for everything but the kitchen sink. This is his ploy to continue to lure Raziel (the messiah) to the darkside. I still feel that Hash'ak'gik is just a spiritual manefestation of the Elder. [/QOUTE]

My theory of Elder destroying the Pillars is supported by SR2 when we clearly see the Elder nestled at the bottom of the Pillars, with his tentacle around the Balance pillar. Even Raziel himself says that it looks like he pulled the Pillars down himself.
And to claim this only to "lure" Raziel makes no sense, since it would only further alienate him from the Elder. However, I do believe that he had nothing to do with Raziel's resurrection and only seized the opportunity and grabbed the pawn, which was so conveniently presented to him.
Think about it, if Elder always worked to free Hylden, manipulating Kain, would he really admit defeat by him sacrificing himself. If Kain sacrificed himself, new guardians would be chosen and order resumed. So Elder would make sure that does not happen, he would destroy the Pillars themselves, and without Pillars there are no guardians(remember what I said about who exists for what).
And does it not strike you as odd that the Pillars were brought down the instant Kain rejected to martyr himself, while in fact nothing regarding the state of the guardians changed. Sure, the corruption was there, and it would remain there until Kain, the last of the guardians dies, but it was present from the beginning of BO1 and before. A simple decision of the Balance guardian would not topple the Pillars, it would merely ensure that Nosgoth slowly decays, but that could be restored at any time, since the guardians merely direct the energies(as I said before), they can't actually stop or disperse their flow as it happened when the Pillars collapsed.
It all fits in nicely with Elder trying to free Hylden from their imprisonment, who actually physically ruined Pillars, which subsequently destroyed the lock and threw the land into chaos.
So yes, I believe Kain was never nothing more than a puppet, even more than it seems at first glance, and never had any power of decision whatsoever, at least not in this matter.
Makes you wonder if Ariel was really working for the good of the land, or perhaps she didn't know about the Elder waiting to enact his plan.




[QUOTE] Moebius (and Azimuth) were devoute followers of Hash'ak'gik and his fanatical religion and ways. The association between Hash and the Elder was made quite clear when Raziel said that.

Your last statement concerning Squiddy there makes you sound like you believe Squiddy is also a Balance Guardian. Tell me, we know the Ancients created the Pillars, how can Squiddy (who never revealed himself prior to SR1 and SR2) keep damning the Pillars and Nosgoth, if Kain kills himself and plays out his role of balance guardian. The Pillars would be allowed to choose his successor and replenish the Circle. The only way that Squiddy could prevent this is to blow up Nosgoth or just simply wipe the humans out which would cause the Pillars to again adapt and go for the next species down the line. (Just as they did from the Ancients to the humans in the first place). So far I am not impressed by the "all talk no action" ways of Squiddy. Sure he sounds all mean and convincing, but when it comes down to it, there just isn't any evidence to show how big and bad he can be.

No no, I never stated he is a balance guardian, nor do I believe this. How did you come to this from what I said?
I already explained this, but here goes again. If Kain kills himself, the purification is complete and new guardians chosen, therefore the balance and order restored.
BUT, like I said the Pillars are the conduits for elemental powers of the land, and if the Pillars themselves are physically destroyed(although I think Elder god might have used more than just physical force to bring them down), those enrgies scatter, leaving the Nosgoth in chaos. No Pillars, no guardians(again recollect what I said before; guardians exist because of the Pillars, not the other way).



[QOUTE] Perhaps because the lock isn't the same. You have to remember, Raziel is the reaver, but the reaver isn't quite itself lately, it's not totally a physical blade, it's seperated at the core. [/QOUTE]

I don't think the corruption of the Circle affected the lock itself, only the land and the direction it is going to. But I already explained this before. But I agree about Raziel being the key, at least part of it, part of it in both parts. Physical appearance of the sword I believe had only the purpose of "catching" the essence of Raziel's soul(remember what I said about his nature before), thus creating the metaphysical blade, but at the same time Raziel must exist separately, in duality of existence, so that he may wield it, completing the key.



[QOUTE] You think? I think Janos is holding out on a big piece of the puzzle that should he reveal it, will make the Ancients not look as divine as they are perceived. Somewhere, they screwed something up and Janos most certainly does not want to admit fault.

Most definitely.
There is more to this whole affair than it meets the eye.

To be continued...

[Morte]

Part II:


[QOUTE] I do think that Squiddy can exist
outside of space and more specificially, dimension. (Hey, lookie here, an Azmiuth connection ). Very interesting how you spoke of his mind never changing eventhough everything else basically has. I think that his squid form is again the physical representation of Hash'ak'gik (for reasons which I touched on above). If he is an "insubstatial being" as you say, I know of a specific Dark Entity that he could be associated with back in his own dimension and briefly (in order to move about more efficiently and weigh the opinions of his followers in Nosgoth). Indeed Kain and Raziel have much to worry about if my Hash'ak'gik theory proves true. All hell could be breaking loose in the near future. Hash/Squiddy is merely playing his cards right until the perfect time then BAM! He unleashes his true wrath. The Elder/Hash connection is this IMO:

The Hylden were banished to the demonic dimension - Hash'ak'gik's demonic dimension. There Hash saw an opportunity to instill his beliefs and take it over (classic example of world dominance) and struck up an alliegence with the Hylden and made the loophole which allowed the Hylden return for BO2. (Murdering Ariel let the guard of the Pillar guardians down and distracted them so he could make his move and help the Hylden return for their revenge). My question is, what does (if anything) Hash/Squiddy get out of the deal? [QOUTE]

I like your Azimuth connection, although it is not quite what I meant. Being the guardian of dimension grants her some insight into other dimensions as well as the ability to manipulate and cross their borders, but she is still bound to one dimension and limited by it and existence in it, while the Elder actually exists outside of dimensions, being able to observe them all without being limited by their borders and can exist in some physical form or another in multiple dimensions at the same time, while his true self remains unaffected by them.
About Hash'Ak'Gik being the true Elder god; hmm, perhaps it is more in the line of Hash'Ak'Gik being another manifestation of the Elder god, his will given form in this world, beside his physical squid form, of course.
That is of course, if Hash'Ak'Gik is not actually some separate entity, which serves the Elder and/or is somehow alligned with him. We can't be certain on this, though, since so much is still hidden.
Interesting theory you have there, although my own differs slightly, but the bottom question I share with you: What does Elder god gain from destroying Nosgoth in freeing Hylden?
Like I speculated in my previous post, it has to be something of metaphysical nature, perhaps he plans to absorb its energies(including all the souls that are bound to it)? But that would mean betraying Hylden as well, since I doubt they would willingly participate in this.
Unless of course, he plans to somehow merge two dimension to create one, braking down the barriers that separate them. That would probably more suit Hylden, especially since they know things about the dimension they were banished to that we do not, and they planned to erase all life in Nosgoth with the Mass, which could be the phase one of this plan.
Again I would like to stress here that I don't believe Elder god is native to the dimension Hylden were banished to, as I explained above, but is simply participating in this to gain something.
As to what that is, I cannot give any deifnite answer, none of us can, we will have to wait for the future to reveal this for us.

This is a classic example of Squiddy BS'ing his way to persuade our hero, Raziel to follow him and do his bidding. Raziel has already been established as being really naive and gulliable. We've noticed a change in him since SR2 (especially after Kain began opening his eyes to the bigger picture). Squiddy did cause the corruption, sorry, he assisted in the corruption, Nupraptor corrupted it, Squiddy just set the ball in motion (again pointing back to Hash being Squiddy). Kain merely polished it off for him (destroying the other guardians at the request of Ariel) makes you wonder who she's aligned with? (I always knew there was more to her than what met the eye ). Your clarification here is supurb! I agree that the key is useless if the lock is broken. Heal the lock (kill Kain or at least have Kain die somehow) restore the lock, then use the key (to destroy Squiddy) if this is the case. The Pillars are corrupted, but only as a result of their guardians being corrupted (and/or dead). I enjoy your analogy of them being innocent bystanders, only fufilling what was intended of them while suffering because they have no one to wield their energy.

Indeed, only in SR2 does the Raziel even begin to comprehen the true picture and its scope. Elder used him by fuelling the most primal of emotions, hate, giving him what he wanted, blaming Kain and keeping Raziel under his thumb(or perhaps tentacle would be a better term).
I believe you misunderstood me on something here, though. I never said Elder caused the corruption of Pillars, no like you said that was Nupraptor's fault. Elder caused the irreversible corruption of Nosgoth and broke the lock by destroying the Pillars.
And like I mentioned before, I too think Ariel is not just what she seems, she is either being mislead as the others, ignorant of certain things, or is misleading others herself.
I don't think the lock can be restored just by Kain's death, that would "reset" the guardians and their guidance of the Pillars' energy, but if the Pillars are no more, neither are the guardians, so any action that Kain takes in this direction would be rendered invalid by the fact that there is nothing to guide any longer.
Also I don't think that the corruption of the guardians affected the lock, no, it only affected the Pillar forces in such in the meaning of changing the direction into which the land existed.
The elemental forces still flow through the Pillars, even if in the direction of the land's decay, therefore still kepping the lock in place. The balance of Nosgoth was toppled with corruption of the Circle, but the lock was still in place because the land was still driven by the forces, albeit out of balance. Only when the Pillars are brought down and the elemental forces that run through the Pillars are scattered and deharmonized, does the lock break, and along comes the chaos that permanently damages Nosgoth.

Another intersting thing that I would like to point out here is just how successfully apparently Kain closed the portal to Hylden dimension in BO2 with the Nexus stone. We learn of no Hylden return throughout all the 5000 and more years of Kain's empire, even though the lock itself is no more.
Unless perhaps they managed to return and were hiding all this time, biding their time.
We can't be certain on that either.
So many questions, so little answers.




[QOUTE] I will agree with this, although I am sure there were a few times that the humans were outnumbered by the vamps but eventually restored the balance between the species (with a purge here and there ). My question is, what exactly is Nosgoth's natural order? Is it humanity or vampires (or what was formerly ancients). Again yet another "unknown" which I hope to have explored. [/QUOTE]

I agree on the notion that Ancients and whatever else was there before humans used to be dominant species.
However, the natural order here is the domination of that species whichever multiplies the most and grows the strongest in numbers without it actually sistematically eliminating any other species(as Kain did for his empire).

Well said, although we need to remember that Vorador was once like Kain - power hungry and whatnot. It wasn't until after the death of his sire that he gave up and became a recluse, choosing to become indifferent to the vampire heritage. He simply didn't care. We've seen a brief glimpse into the power hungry Vorador in BO2, when he was devoted to the vampire cause again (only I still think it was for traitorous reasons ) He didn't run and hide and he more than threw his two cents in where necessary. I believe he did this before Janos was murdered as well. Remember, he even comments on the "fairytale" nature of the Ancients and their cause etc. in SR2. He struck me as abandoning the old ways and chosing his own lonely path of existence. (While remaining a traitor - you need to check that thread out, I really don't trust Vorador all that much and I love his character so much more because of it). Vorador once tried the way of coexisting with the humans and it got him nowhere - except sireless of course. This is when he turned his back and could care less.

I don't think Vorador ever particularly cared about humans and their affairs, it is just that Janos' death enraged him so much and, like you said, also pushed him even further into seclusion, away from humans.
But unless I am mistaken the "old ways" were to exist among humans with them knowing as little as possible about vampires, occasionaly striking fear in them by taking people in the middle of the night and then disappear again. So his secluded ways were quite similair to this.
He never tried to actually coexist with humans peacefully, he simply regarded humans as cattle, "a herd that needs to be thinned", and didn't care much for them until they started to represent a threat to him in a way, so he punished them, killing off the Circle and retreating from their reach.
Not as good as he thought, as madame guillotine can testify, but apparently even that changed later, as he lives again, or perhaps his neck was never even touched by the guillotine's cold blade, we don't know that(yet).
Whether this is for better or for worse, remains to be seen.
And in BO2 he fought with such determination because his entire race and he himself was threatened by the overpowering Sarafan, and Cabal literally fought for their lives.

The only one who predicted Kain's rise to power was Hash'ak'gik which is why (in the form of Mortanius) he orchestrated him to be murdered outside of the Ziegsturhl tavern. This was the catalyst which was supposed to play in Hash's favor until Kain began exerting a rebellious nature and the free will. Raziel comments in SR2 that Moebius (the spy of the Elder) and the Elder are now off guard and making their plan up as they go along. They never counted on Kain ending up the way he did, or doing the things he did. Kain took the upperhand. Vorador was never a threat to Kain's position, Vorador didn't care. Sure he vented about it, but he didn't stop it, he even helped Kain dispose of the Paladin, Malek. Not something a person would do if they opposed Kain IMO. (See, told you he was a traitor ). There's always been and always will be a conflict between Vorador and Kain. Their arrogance is well played each time they are brought together. Kain comments in BO2 about not trusting him either. (traitor).

Umah's downfall was the fact she wanted to play the hero. She wanted to look good for her sire and try to dispose of the Sarafan Lord on her own. She was naive and undisciplined and it ended up getting her killed. (Remind me to post my Umah character thesis for you). I think you are backwards on what Vorador instilled into Umah's head. Vorador most likely convinced his daughter that Kain's arrogance and power-hungry nature would mean the end of Nosgoth and the vampire race all together. This gave her reason to steal the Nexus stone from Kain's chest, and go on about how he would turn his back on the Cabal and the vampires, implying he would betray them for his own selfish nature.

Vorador withholding information not only proves Kain was a tool, but it proves Vorador was a traitor. He wanted to get rid of Kain so nothing would stand in the dark forces' way. Check out the Vorador: Something fishy going on with this one thread. Its rather insightful.

On that note, I think I am done rambling.

I agree with you on Kain foiling some plans by exerting his own will, but considering my Elder god theory, his efforts were doomed from the beginning. Not to say he can't change anything.
This can already be obvious in SR2 and 1, when he raises the veil of deceit from Raziel's eyes, drastically changing things, but perhaps still not in the direction he hoped for, as can be witnessed at the end of SR2.
And what you speak of here are the events of BO1, when Vorador didn't know Kain well and didn't realise the scope of his ambitions and his intentions yet.
I think it was somewhere during BO2 that Vorador realised that Kain's views of Nosgoth differ greatly from his own, and felt his way of life threatened, seeing a threat in Kain, but someone he could still use nevertheless.
I don't think Vorador ever planned for Kain to rule the vampires, once the Sarafan lord has been disposed of, just as he knew Kain wouldn't tolerate another very powerful vampire, whose beliefs and views differ greatly from his own.
And this is additionaly supported by the fact that Vorador is not alive in SR1. But then again, we don't yet know just what exactly happened, so this is just speculation.
I am not certain about Vorador being atraitor, though, will have to look into that thread you mentioned.

Aye, like you said, Vorador persuaded Umah, or at least filled her head with ideas about Kain betraying them and not caring for anyone but himself, he was afraid that with Nexus stone and defeating the Sarafan lord by himself, Kain could levy too much power against him.
Umah was loyal to the Cabal and believed what she was doing was for the good of everyone.
Vorador might not have actually sent Umah after the stone, but I don't think he discouraged her from taking it either, transfering his untrust towards Kain on her.

Enough for now. It would be interesting to see that Umah character thesis you mentioned.

I just hope this thing with quotes works out, otherwise this is going to be one highly incoherent mess.

And thanks for the tip, Anubis.

[Umah Bloodomen]

The quote tags wouldn't (won't) work properly because you have added smileys in addtion to the ones I already had in my last response. When you quote something, you quote it all.

As for the Umah character thesis: You can find that here:

Umah Character Thesis (Copyright 2002) by Amber Willits ("Umah Bloodomen") Not for reproduction.

Let me know what you think. I am posting it on my website.