Playing Tomb Raider 2 Again...

[kksmith]

Well, I decided - for kicks - to go back and install Tomb Raider 2 again (would have done TR1 but unfortunately I don't own that one ). You know, going back and playing it again, I have come to realize how great Legend's control scheme actually was I think the lack of mouse control alone was a huge difference. I actually managed to remap the keys pretty close to Legend's setup - WASD setup + E for "Action/Shooting", F for "Rolling" (which is a fancy word for doing a 180 flip), Del for Flares, PgDn for Look, Space for Jump, etc. It actually did work pretty well... at least until the game crashed -_- (also I swear I remember more tigers in the first level, but I guess not)

But it got me thinking about the remakes and what they should keep or change (i.e. bring in concepts from Legend):
Good:

• Flares (as opposed to the PLS), at least in TR1/TR2 are better I think
• Aiming is good here - really good. Legend kind of screwed this up I think. I don't want to deal with crosshairs - I just want to shoot stuff. In particular, the animals in this game are much faster than the many, many Mercs in Legend, which means you need to have faster aiming. I hope they handle it in much the same way.
• Keys, different weapons, weapon ammo, and med packs: while I do like what Legend did with stuff like med packs and weapons, for the first two games, keep it the same. I do like the idea of carrying any weapon, and I kind of like the two different med pack sizes too, and how you find them. And obviously, without a bazillion human enemies, scattering ammo around is good too. Keys are of course something Legend did not have, and I think they were good in this game. Definately keep those.
• Enemies: more animals, less humans In particular, I was surprised to see spiders as an enemy (been so long, frankly the only enemy from this game I remembered was the Tigers). They worked very well I thought, and it was fun to blast them apart

Bad:

• No autograb: this wasn't horrible, but I definately missed it. It was a nice tweak that I think helps the franchise.
• Jumping: I'll start this by saying I think I do like the general idea behind the jumping system in this game. Normal jumping I have no problem with. The problem I have is with far jumping, which is so freaking particular that it's very difficult to perform. Basically, you need to have "one block's worth" of running room to do it, otherwise she just doesn't jump, period. That was so annoying, especially in Lara's House which starts as an obstacle course. Frequently I would try and clear a "long jump" gap only to have Lara just flat out run off the side of the platform instead of jump -_- Jumping in general was just too "twitchy" to work right. I hope in this case, they do stick with Legend's control. I don't care personally if they let her jump farther (though the distance actually doesn't seem like much more than what she can do in Legend - the exception maybe the vertical distance), just keep the same general jumping control.

Neutral:

• Lighting: This is a graphics issue, considering how freaking old this game is But there were things I liked and things I didn't. One thing I didn't like, was that the game imposed "artificial fog" by making far-off areas really dark. Obviously that was a technical issue back then, and that won't be a problem now. Just that when you are outside (i.e. Great Wall), it shouldn't be that dark What I did like however, was that many of the inside areas were pretty dark. I think this was good, and in particular Legend didn't have enough dark areas. I never needed to use the PLS once. They needed more areas where it was so dark you couldn't see where you were going w/o the light source. I like that
• Swimming controls: only did a little bit of swimming before it crashed, but I think I liked how it worked. You used Jump to swim, and I believe Action to swim up to the surface. That worked pretty good, though I don't know if I liked those particular keys for those functions. I liked Legend's Jump = swim up and roll = swim down, but other than that it was somewhat of a flakey system. This game was a bit simpler which I think helped with control. Overall I think I'd recommend keeping it with the general WASD controls, then allow mouse movement to guide Lara. Keep Jump/Roll as "emergency" buttons if you need to emerge/dive very quickly, but don't require them to be held down (along with forward and the E button for faster swimming).

Anyways, those are my opinions. Granted I only got to play a little bit before it crashed. I'm curious to see what other people think about what they should keep/change from the original (particularly control-wise).

[susan]

How far did you actually get kksmith, which bit?

[kksmith]

Originally Posted by Susan

How far did you actually get kksmith, which bit?

The first time it crashed half way into the Great Wall (so not far). I think it was just before the part with the two boulders, followed by about 10 moving walls of spikes haha.. After that it was giving me some errors about the graphics and not letting me play. For some reason, reapplying the patch fixed that.

So right now I'm somewhere in Venice. That level is quite a maze tho

[susan]

Originally Posted by kksmith

The first time it crashed half way into the Great Wall (so not far). I think it was just before the part with the two boulders, followed by about 10 moving walls of spikes haha.. After that it was giving me some errors about the graphics and not letting me play. For some reason, reapplying the patch fixed that.

So right now I'm somewhere in Venice. That level is quite a maze tho

Hehe, I've just restarted replaying TR2 too. I'm in Venice also, which is why I asked. Let me know how you get along unless you decide the controls are too much for you!

[kksmith]

Originally Posted by Susan

Hehe, I've just restarted replaying TR2 too. I'm in Venice also, which is why I asked. Let me know how you get along unless you decide the controls are too much for you!

I just got to the Opera House and I'm starting to remember why I didn't like this game to begin with. Freaking three levels in Venice? One, ok. Two, you are pushing it. But three is rediculous. I'm really getting sick of all these brawny Popeye rejects with shotguns (seriously, why do they all have so many wrinkles?). I'd much rather do some *Tomb* raiding I think that's why the first game will always be better.

Honestly now that I'm at the Opera House, I think this was as far as I got originally. I guess at this point I was so sick of Venice (and I think I got stuck at some point) that I quit. I guess I'll have to try and keep going and hopefully see some new places heh.. I think this was why I didn't like TR3 either.. well, three levels in the jungle PLUS the fact that the game was so freaking hard (and it took forever to figure out what to do)

[midroth]

La opera di Venezia. One of the best levels ever!

[susan]

Originally Posted by midroth

La opera di Venezia. One of the best levels ever!

Agreed midroth, I love it. One of my favourites.

Originally Posted by kksmith

I just got to the Opera House...

Hey you made it as far as that!! Stay with it kksmith, immerse yourself, you can do it.

TR2 is the most combat heavy out of all the TRs, but, when you get further in to the game, some kindly people will give you a hand. And you have to do the shipwreck levels (all of them!) at least once to call yourself a TR player... I love those levels best out of TR2.

[kksmith]

Wee, I got to the Diving Area now. Opera House was pretty fun, and that's definately where I got stuck the last time I played and gave up. I think I got as far as the roof (that is a roof right? the big "dome" area..) and I got kind of lost.

Wasn't nearly as bad this time, plus I had FAQs when I got stuck The fans thing sucked tho (all that backflipping.. ugg). And Lara is certainly braver than I thought. She finds a circuit board in a deep pool of water and has the guts to actually connect that thing up to electricity? haha.. I'm surprised it even worked, but man she should have gotten a nasty shock from that

I liked the oil rig but it's kind of a shame there are so many "civilization" levels.

I'll have to keep playing though, I think I'll enjoy it a bit more now that I'm finally past Venice

[susan]

Lmao, those fans!! Did Lara, "Ooooeeerrrrrr"....*crumple*... enough times for you? First time I did that bit, don't laugh, but I missed the key completely. For some reason, I slid down the slopes and all that fan jumping, and didn't see it at all... I had to it all over again.

I loved how everything connected up together in the Opera House and how you got to go everywhere, front house, back stage, underground.

For some reason I thought you probably wouldn't like the oil rig. I thought you might complain about having your guns taken off you and well, there is a fair amount of backtracking around with burly men, dogs and flamethrowers after you too. Or maybe you haven't quite done those bits yet.

This game is front-loaded with civilization but it gets more outdoorsy later on, and quite... different... very later on. Don't want to spoil anything for you!

Try to do the shipwreck levels without any guide. They are perplexing, and you will get lost, but (I find) completely rewarding. Good luck.

[kksmith]

Originally Posted by Susan

Lmao, those fans!! Did Lara, "Ooooeeerrrrrr"....*crumple*... enough times for you? First time I did that bit, don't laugh, but I missed the key completely. For some reason, I slid down the slopes and all that fan jumping, and didn't see it at all... I had to it all over again.

I loved how everything connected up together in the Opera House and how you got to go everywhere, front house, back stage, underground.

For some reason I thought you probably wouldn't like the oil rig. I thought you might complain about having your guns taken off you and well, there is a fair amount of backtracking around with burly men, dogs and flamethrowers after you too. Or maybe you haven't quite done those bits yet.

This game is front-loaded with civilization but it gets more outdoorsy later on, and quite... different... very later on. Don't want to spoil anything for you!

Try to do the shipwreck levels without any guide. They are perplexing, and you will get lost, but (I find) completely rewarding. Good luck.

Yeah the fans sucked. The part I got stuck on for awhile was where you go into that vent system, kill the rat, then you've got fans to your left, right and front and you have to jump that gap. I had so much trouble jumping that. I even looked at FAQs and (misreading the part I was at) thought maybe I had to backflip across. But no that didn't work. Stupid low ceilings. I guess I had to do a running jump. THEN the backflipping came, but at least by then I was across

The Oil Rig was ok. I didn't mind losing my guns, it was interesting I find it funny though that a freaking prison cell apparently has a switch to open the door in the back hidden behind some crates tho haha.. There are a lot of "Oh isn't that convenient? (though not really practical)" moments in that level particularly The Harpoon Gun kinda sucked tho. Maybe if they actually gave me ammo. I wasted ALL of my harpoons on two guys.

The spot where you get the Stone Idol was pretty though Especially for that game, being so old graphically.

I havn't gotten to the flamethrowers yet. And I do know she goes to Area 51, doesn't she? Or is that TR 3? I can never remember I have both games, the only two I actually own (other than Legend) and I never beat them heh.. So it will be fun beating this for once. I don't know if I want to tackle TR3 again. I've tried several times not even that long ago (about a year probably) and I could never make it past the third jungle level. I just couldn't stand how hard and annoying that game was, even using FAQs. It involved too much backtracking and pure "running around trying to figure out what to do", plus I hear there is a lot of "Go to X, get a key, come back to Y" which kind of sucks Hmm, come to think of it tho, I may have passed the Jungle. I seem to remember the "selection screen" thing, but I don't think I got much further than that.

[susan]

OMG, I didn't realise you hadn't done TR3!!!! That is my favourite TR (along with TR1), better than TR2 definitely.

My order of preference is:
TR3 &1
TR4
TR2
Legend
AoD
TR5

There are some absolutely amazing moments in TR3 - including Area 51. It is a difficult game, but once you get through TR2, you'll be a pro, hehe. I agree there are a fair few bits of running around get key, go to Y, use key...so if you really despise that thing, then of course, don't put yourself through it.

But for me, TR3 is so much more - it's a wild ride and has atmosphere in spades. If you step into it, and put your mind in there and feel you are Lara in her world, if you can do that, you'll love it...

I think to enjoy TR3 properly you have to be completely au fait with the controls. So that they become second nature and you don't have to think about that bit.

[kksmith]

Originally Posted by Susan

OMG, I didn't realise you hadn't done TR3!!!! That is my favourite TR (along with TR1), better than TR2 definitely.

My order of preference is:
TR3 &1
TR4
TR2
Legend
AoD
TR5

There are some absolutely amazing moments in TR3 - including Area 51. It is a difficult game, but once you get through TR2, you'll be a pro, hehe. I agree there are a fair few bits of running around get key, go to Y, use key...so if you really despise that thing, then of course, don't put yourself through it.

But for me, TR3 is so much more - it's a wild ride and has atmosphere in spades. If you step into it, and put your mind in there and feel you are Lara in her world, if you can do that, you'll love it...

I think to enjoy TR3 properly you have to be completely au fait with the controls. So that they become second nature and you don't have to think about that bit.

Heh, I'll have to give it another try I guess. It's funny that I havn't beaten those two (nor really got far at all) and yet TR1 which I *don't* own I've beaten (borrowed it from a friend back when it first came out - loved it so much that I bought TR2.. but I didn't love that game as much )

I *think* I have Angel of Darkness too. Or at least, I think it came free with my sound card. I need to find the CD and see if it's actually the full version or just a demo. It *looked* like the full version but I never actually fired it up to look But actually finding the CD will be the tricky part as I have no idea what I did with it Maybe it's still in my sound card box :P

[Mangar The Dark]

I guess I'm in the minority on this, but I think TR2 was the biggest disappointment in the TR series (yes, bigger than AOD.) The first game was amazing. When I bought TR1, I was a bit skeptical, because I don't like games that are all about shooting, but then I was thrilled to find out that TR1 was mainly about exploring, avoiding traps, and solving puzzles. There were just enough fights to keep you on your toes, but never enough to ruin that wonderful isolated feeling. And the locations were great! I actually enjoyed the fact that it was all underground-- throughout the entire game, I always felt like I was exploring locations that mankind hasn't seen in thousands of years.

Then I rushed out to get TR2. Suddenly, that sense of isolation is gone. I'm being attacked by guys with guns at every turn, and shooting takes priority over exploration. Instead of exploring long-lost ruins and caves, I'm traipsing through the streets of Venice, hanging out in an opera house, and fighting my way across an oil rig. Underwater sequences are less fun, too-- now I'm being shot at by scuba divers, and the underwater controls do not at all lend themselves to combat. The stupid harpoon gun is far from enjoyable. Adding this annoyance is the fact that the level designers felt it would be cool to incorporate far more exapansive underwater sequences than in the original.
Vehicles were a cool idea, but I found them more annoying than fun, most of the time. The controls felt awkward, and I hated the fact that Lara took damage whenever I crashed into something. At least in TR3 onwards, they changed that.
The final insult was the fact that the game had a huge bug, causing many levels to play at half-speed (on the PC... not sure about the PS version.) Traveling long distances was excruciating because of the snail's pace (at first, I assumed my computer was at fault, but after trying the game on three different PCs and getting the same problem on all them, it seemed apparent that TR2 had a serious bug.)

[StarChampagne]

I loved TR2, but I can't say I enjoyed the extensive water/ship levels. There WAS a lot of combat (and yes, they were amazingly wrinkly ), but I suppose it is very different from the original. And the TR2 levels are truly gigantic. And I liked Aod

After this remake of the original, if it's a massive hit, I wonder if they'll do TR2 But it's very early for this, plus WE WANT TR8!! They should probably just work on making that perfect and recapturing the old TR spirit.

[Piega]

Funny to see this post as I am remaking Bartoli's hideout on TR4 engine. That was the best level that got me into tomb raider. I spent hours to find out that you could climb to chandeliers to jump to the key behind the painting. The music that I heard when landing on the chandeliers got me into tomb raider forever.

I played tomb raider II first and episode I after. I like II better. I guess running only in caves is not really my thing but hé. Some one prefers chocolate to vanilla

[kksmith]

Originally Posted by Piega

Funny to see this post as I am remaking Bartoli's hideout on TR4 engine. That was the best level that got me into tomb raider. I spent hours to find out that you could climb to chandeliers to jump to the key behind the painting. The music that I heard when landing on the chandeliers got me into tomb raider forever.

I played tomb raider II first and episode I after. I like II better. I guess running only in caves is not really my thing but hé. Some one prefers chocolate to vanilla

Yeah, I liked that part of the level. The first Venice level could have used more cool stuff like that (tho I guess it had the boats ). I did hate all the many, many ladders in Venice though (all three levels). Lara climbs SOOOO SLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW in this game

[Mangar The Dark]

Originally Posted by Piega

I played tomb raider II first and episode I after. I like II better.

I think a lot of it has to do with which game you play first. For me, I played TR1 first, so I had certain expectations of TR2. I really didn't expect a game with tons of shooting, loads of human enemies running around modern-day locales, and the need to constantly use medpacks because of all the fighting. Naturally, then, when I played TR2, I was disappointed because I was thinking, "But, THIS isn't Tomb Raider!!!!" (same as many people are now complaining the Legend isn't REALLY a Tomb Raider game.)

On the other hand, if you played TR2 first and enjoyed it, I can quite see why you might think the original comes up short. (honestly, the first couple of levels in TR1 weren't too exciting, but I guess they worked for me at the time because they were a good introduction to the controls. If you already played TR2, though, The Caves in TR1 would seem like a complete waste of time.)

[kksmith]

Originally Posted by Mangar The Dark

I think a lot of it has to do with which game you play first. For me, I played TR1 first, so I had certain expectations of TR2. I really didn't expect a game with tons of shooting, loads of human enemies running around modern-day locales, and the need to constantly use medpacks because of all the fighting. Naturally, then, when I played TR2, I was disappointed because I was thinking, "But, THIS isn't Tomb Raider!!!!" (same as many people are now complaining the Legend isn't REALLY a Tomb Raider game.)

On the other hand, if you played TR2 first and enjoyed it, I can quite see why you might think the original comes up short. (honestly, the first couple of levels in TR1 weren't too exciting, but I guess they worked for me at the time because they were a good introduction to the controls. If you already played TR2, though, The Caves in TR1 would seem like a complete waste of time.)

You know I felt the same way. I borrowed TR1 from a friend, played it all the way to the end and beat the game. I loved it so much that I picked up Tomb Raider 2 and found the whole thing to be a major let down. And it's the same reasons you said, too many humans, too many urban locals, etc. Tomb Raider 3 looked like it was getting away from that (the first level jungle area was beautiful) but then I actually played it and it was just insanely hard. After that I sort of gave up on the series until Legend. And while I do feel Legend has too many human enemies, it has enough tombs and other "right" aspects that I really enjoyed it.

But now I'm going back and playing Tomb Raider 2 again and I think I can sort of appreciate the game for once. I still think it pales in comparison to the first, but I can at least look past the stuff I disliked about it to begin with now and enjoy it for what it is :P I suppose I will have to try the same for TR3 after this, though I'm definately gonna dig up some walkthroughs first. I've been trying for years to go back to that game, and every time I do, while I make a little more progress, I just get completely stuck and frustrated at some point (even with walkthroughs - trying to read text descriptions and translate those into actual environments is not always the best) and give up. So we'll see

[Mangar The Dark]

Originally Posted by kksmith

You know I felt the same way. I borrowed TR1 from a friend, played it all the way to the end and beat the game. I loved it so much that I picked up Tomb Raider 2 and found the whole thing to be a major let down. And it's the same reasons you said, too many humans, too many urban locals, etc. Tomb Raider 3 looked like it was getting away from that (the first level jungle area was beautiful) but then I actually played it and it was just insanely hard.

Well, I was reluctant to even buy TR3 after the disappointment of TR2. But I finally bought it when the price dropped, and I was pleasantly surprised. True, it was excessively difficult (and there were too many places where you HAD to die in order to know a trap was there), but at least the combat was toned down a bit. Still, it wasn't until TR4 that I really got into the series again (I think I mainly liked TR3 just because my expectations were so low after TR2, whereas TR4 was a genuinely good game.)

[kksmith]

I've had some more time to play it. I'm up to "The Deck" so far.

I actually enjoyed the Diving Area but I found the whole place waaaay too similar to the Oil Rig. They could have made it all one level and you wouldn't even notice.

The shipwreck has been pretty fun too, though I'm kind of wishing they'd end it already :P I'm assuming The Deck is the last level of that. I like all the underwater stuff, though I HATE the Scuba guys. They are just retarded, and the harpoon gun *doesn't work worth a crap* so yeah The Sharks in 40 Fathoms were awesome though. I actually think that was my favorite part of all the underwater stuff just because of the sharks and the atmosphere of the "rusty hull" interior areas The next level was cool in that everything was upside-down, though I find it odd that only THAT level is upside-down and everything else is rightside-up :P I wonder if that was a blunder or if the ship somehow twisted in half.

[Mangar The Dark]

Its interesting, KK, your comments remind EXACTLY of the thoughts I had when playing TR2! I despised the scuba guys and the harpoon, and yes, the diving area and oil rig were pretty much the same thing. The shipwreck, as you said, went on too long (a very cool idea, but I remember it seemed endless.)

Are you playing on the PC? For me, the absolute worst thing about TR2 was the annoying bug in the PC version that caused certain levels to run at half speed, and I remember that happened a lot during the shipwreck levels, making them feel even more endless! It's so odd that neither TR1 or 3 had this flaw, even though all three games used the same engine. (considering how large the TR3 levels were, it's a very good thing they never ran at half-speed!!)

[kksmith]

Yeah, I'm playing on the PC but I havn't noticed any slowdown. Actually the game is so old that if there's slowdown I'd be seriously surprised

Anyways, I'm up to the snow area now (Tibet right?)

[shirl123]

Originally Posted by Piega

Funny to see this post as I am remaking Bartoli's hideout on TR4 engine.

off topic, but...errr...screenshots, please?

Mangar - first time I get to hear about a slowdown. odd!

[Mangar The Dark]

Originally Posted by shirl123

Mangar - first time I get to hear about a slowdown. odd!

Yeah, it was really bizarre and extremely annoying. And I experienced the problem on three different computers! (all of them far exceeded the minimum specs, and they all had no trouble running the other TR games.) I remember the first level (Great Wall) ran at half-speed. Then the first part of Venice was fine, but the second or third level in Venice ran at half-speed, and much of the Andrea Doria levels also ran at half-speed. Tibet was ok, I think. It's been too long for me to remember specifics. I'm surprised to hear no one else had this problem. Too bad I sold my copy of TR2... I'd like to try it on my current computer.

[shirl123]

did you try it with the same copy? could be the problem.
I mean, I know so many people who own this game, none complained about such thing.

but I have a problem with the LE: it wouldn't even load on my PC, and there's no reason why it should be this way.
my copy worked on other PCs, other copies didn't work on my PC. odd.