Slightly disappointed in Crystal Dynamics...

[=Shrensh=]

I think that perhaps a bit of the frustration in this thread comes from how non-Tomb Raider fans see Tomb Raider fans as only playing the game because of Lara's boobies. I myself don't mind at all when people critisize Tomb Raider for legitimate reasons, even if I don't agree with them. People have different tastes and are entitled to their own opinions. The only time I get offended and angry is when people say "Tomb Raider is only popular because people like to stare at Lara's titties". I am a heterosexual female and that is *not* why I love Tomb Raider. People are worried that CD are going to trade only on Lara's good looks, much the way Core & Eidos did in the past, or that people are going to see it that way.

(I rather like the dress... it's grown on me a bit )

[susan]

Originally Posted by SasaPisa

They are equivocal comparisons. Both assume an ideal body image. Perhaps you don't see that because, assuming by your name, you are a woman.

There is a lot of pressure for men to try and comform to the "muscular athlete" body stereotype as the ideal sexual aesthetic for the male form. Unfortunatly for many, it's impossible. This has lead to a ballooning among young men of the same types of emotional and eating disorders traditionally associated with women.

Women are given "ideal sexual aesthetics" too, such as being presented with images of women that are thin, have big breasts, and so on.

Relative levels of clothing is in addition to the idealised body characteristics presented for both sexes.

... wonder if the pc reaction against physical stereotypes is simply defensiveness on the part of the McGeneration.

How much a woman is wearing is in addition to those physical stereotypes. Any women, whatever her body shape or size, can dress in revealing clothes. Her clothes are not her body. That's why it's not the same. To me anyway.

Are you really trying to say that the ideal physical stereotype (or body image) for women is wearing revealing clothing?

Originally Posted by Catsuit&Ponytail

I do.

Thanks.

[jaycw2309]

Really cannot believe this topic is still raging on, its MORE talked about then the release date for the game, which kinda shows its decended beyond being actually about lara.. you could put ANYONE into this situation and this conversation would go on and on and on.

its going in circles, peoples differing views will not be resolved as obviously everyone is entitled to their own views..

[GoranAgar]

But at least in a somewhat civilized manner. You do not get that everywhere.

[Acceber]

Originally Posted by jaycw2309

its MORE talked about then the release date for the game,

I am not talking about the release date for the game in case it gets changed. No tempting fate for me. *raises umbrella indoors*

[ShadowOfOblivion]

Originally Posted by jaycw2309

Really cannot believe this topic is still raging on, its MORE talked about then the release date for the game, which kinda shows its decended beyond being actually about lara.. you could put ANYONE into this situation and this conversation would go on and on and on.

its going in circles, peoples differing views will not be resolved as obviously everyone is entitled to their own views..

Well you're a moderator? If you feel the topic no longer contributes to the forums and that it has served it's purpose you not only have the power to close it but delete it as well.

I'm sorry..it's just you seem to be getting mad at us for expressing our views, when you've had the power to close it all this time. Her dress is obviously a strong issue if I haven't posted in here for over a day, said it was over..and it's still going on.

But like I said, I'm surprised this thread hasn't been closed by now if it was such a bother.

[Xxx_Lara_xxX]

The reason this has gone on for 9+ pages is because A LOT of people LOVE Lara. (myself included)

We LOVE her and as a woman I can IDENTIFY with her. There are people who love the idea of Lara so much that in college they pursue archeology, travel to China or learn about British culture just because we want to be more like her.

She is like art with a million interpretations. Some people interpret her as an exquisitely well-mannered aristocrat with a daring side, others see her as someone who has cast off her former 'upper crust' identity almost completely.

Others might see her as a quite unpleasant parody of 'colonial Britain' --rich people willing to kill natives and steal precious treasures from poor countries (the diamond of India comes to mind)

Some of us may come from a wealthy background and see Lara as a reflection of a part of us that wants to escape it all and dress however we want and shoot people and be COMPLETELY UNINHIBITED.

Others may come from a wealthy background and feel that Lara can kill and maim in SELF-DEFENSE, but can never forget WHAT she is and therefore would not wear such a dress under any circumstances.

To close this thread would be a shame, unlike some other heavily censored forums, Eidos SHOULD hear this DEBATE because we are debating WHO LARA IS.

[WraithStar]

Originally Posted by Xxx_Lara_xxX

The reason this has gone on for 9+ pages is because A LOT of people LOVE Lara. (myself included)

We LOVE her and as a woman I can IDENTIFY with her. There are people who love the idea of Lara so much that in college they pursue archeology, travel to China or learn about British culture just because we want to be more like her.

She is like art with a million interpretations. Some people interpret her as an exquisitely well-mannered aristocrat with a daring side, others see her as someone who has cast off her former 'upper crust' identity almost completely.

Others might see her as a quite unpleasant parody of 'colonial Britain' --rich people willing to kill natives and steal precious treasures from poor countries (the diamond of India comes to mind)

Some of us may come from a wealthy background and see Lara as a reflection of a part of us that wants to escape it all and dress however we want and shoot people and be COMPLETELY UNINHIBITED.

Others may come from a wealthy background and feel that Lara can kill and maim in SELF-DEFENSE, but can never forget WHAT she is and therefore would not wear such a dress under any circumstances.

To close this thread would be a shame, unlike some other heavily censored forums, Eidos SHOULD hear this DEBATE because we are debating WHO LARA IS.

Very well said. I'm only debating this because I like Lara so much, and I respect Crystal and expect for them to live up to a high standard in both the quality of the game and in how they portray a character I've known for years.

[Joshorty]

I'd hate to say that if anyone makes a nude patch for this game... ...it just kills!!...you guys know abut the infamous Lara Naked Trampoline Party right? it's an actual game that's rated AO (Adults Only - don't have to ask why)...I was so disappointed to see that game...some company I guess got permission to do so...she basically jumps around trampolines and...aiya I don't know...Lara's NOT like THAT

[jaycw2309]

Originally Posted by ShadowOfOblivion

Well you're a moderator? If you feel the topic no longer contributes to the forums and that it has served it's purpose you not only have the power to close it but delete it as well.

I'm sorry..it's just you seem to be getting mad at us for expressing our views, when you've had the power to close it all this time. Her dress is obviously a strong issue if I haven't posted in here for over a day, said it was over..and it's still going on.

But like I said, I'm surprised this thread hasn't been closed by now if it was such a bother.

it aint a bother, just i find it fascinating that its still going on, even tho it has become a circular conversation

[ShadowOfOblivion]

Originally Posted by Joshorty

I'd hate to say that if anyone makes a nude patch for this game... ...it just kills!!...you guys know abut the infamous Lara Naked Trampoline Party right? it's an actual game that's rated AO (Adults Only - don't have to ask why)...I was so disappointed to see that game...some company I guess got permission to do so...she basically jumps around trampolines and...aiya I don't know...Lara's NOT like THAT

LOL, WHAT?! I cannot believe this :|.

And sorry for the misunderstanding Jay.

[=Shrensh=]

The Naked Trampoline Party isn't real. It was an April Fool's joke

[GoranAgar]

Originally Posted by GoranAgar

But at least [it is discussed] in a somewhat civilized manner. You do not get that everywhere.

Originally Posted by ShadowOfOblivion

But like I said, I'm surprised this thread hasn't been closed by now if it was such a bother.

That should have given it away.

On the other hand, talk about the mentioned patch will get this thread closed because as a side effect it uninstalls our sense of humour. I just thought I should point this out.

[ShadowOfOblivion]

Originally Posted by GoranAgar

That should have given it away.

On the other hand, talk about the mentioned patch will get this thread closed because as a side effect it uninstalls our sense of humour. I just thought I should point this out.

Yeah lets not look back on that dark area in Lara's history shall we?

[Joshorty]

Originally Posted by =Shrensh=

The Naked Trampoline Party isn't real. It was an April Fool's joke

WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAT?!?!?!?!

well it wasn't funy -_-.... it was stupid in fact...I'm glad it ins't real 'cause then it'd be whole disappointment...it's even on www.cheatcc.com!! GRRRRR

[WraithStar]

Whatever it was, I don't know anything about it and I don't want to know anything about it. In this case, I'd say ignorance is bliss.

Back on topic, this discussion is indeed about *who* Lara is more than what she's wearing. I view Lara as being elegant with nerves of steel. She's not manipulative. She is very attractive, but in the previous games she doesn't use that to get what she wants. In fact, when she's interacting with other characters, they are always paying attention to what she is saying or where she is pointing her pistols; they don't even seem to notice her body. Lara is obviously comfortable with her figure, but she relies upon her intelligence and her athletic abilities. That's what I like and respect about Lara and I'm extremely disappointed to think that she's losing that personality trait.

[=Shrensh=]

Lara has lost a lot of personality traits that she had in the other games. Can you imagine the Lara from the other games relying on a tech team when she goes out to raid tombs? I'm more disappointed over her losing her independence than her wearing a skimpy dress.

[John Carter]

Originally Posted by =Shrensh=

Lara has lost a lot of personality traits that she had in the other games. Can you imagine the Lara from the other games relying on a tech team when she goes out to raid tombs? I'm more disappointed over her losing her independence than her wearing a skimpy dress.

Well, hopefully she will have much more personality than before, but with the minimalist approach of the earlier games everybody could imagine for themselves what she was "really" like, here it will be more scripted for us.

The only real concern with anything I have seen yet is that tech team as Shrensh mentions. I will be OK and good for giving us story background info if used in small doses, but I do hope it doesn't intrude on the solitary coolness of Lara in magnificent surroundings.

[WraithStar]

Originally Posted by John Carter

Well, hopefully she will have much more personality than before, but with the minimalist approach of the earlier games everybody could imagine for themselves what she was "really" like, here it will be more scripted for us.

The only real concern with anything I have seen yet is that tech team as Shrensh mentions. I will be OK and good for giving us story background info if used in small doses, but I do hope it doesn't intrude on the solitary coolness of Lara in magnificent surroundings.

Of course Lara will have much more personality in Legend. She was a very flat character in the previous games, but she was also extremely consistent (I'm not counting AOD here because of the dialogue choosing). I'm worried that in the process of fleshing her character out, Crystal will leave out the few personality traits that she did have.

I'm undecided about the tech team. I don't think that actually having a tech team makes Lara any less independent. In TR1, she was working for Natla. Now she has people working for her. It seems like she's more in control in Legend. If the tech team is done correctly, it will open up many more possibilities for Lara. However, I acknowledge that if it is done incorrectly, it will be extremely annoying. The tech team's voices were alright in the trailer, so I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt until I see more. I'm hoping that it will be like the whisper in Blood Omen 2, where the other vampires occassionally gave Kain a warning or information about the next objective, but it was never intrusive.

[Joshorty]

...as long as there's one level (other then flashbacks) where she completely lost her contect with Zip and Alister back at the mansion for some odd, unexplainable reason, then I'm happy

[midroth]

Originally Posted by =Shrensh=

Lara has lost a lot of personality traits that she had in the other games. Can you imagine the Lara from the other games relying on a tech team when she goes out to raid tombs? I'm more disappointed over her losing her independence than her wearing a skimpy dress.

Anyhow...yes. No I cannot imagine. A Team is like "Kurtis x 5". You know?

[=Shrensh=]

Originally Posted by Joshorty

...as long as there's one level (other then flashbacks) where she completely lost her contect with Zip and Alister back at the mansion for some odd, unexplainable reason, then I'm happy

It's going to take more than one level with her being out of contact to make me happy

I don't know... it might turn out that it's very well done and I won't mind, but since it's just the fact that they're there that annoys me, I think it's going to irritate me intensely. A tech team is just so opposite the whole point of Tomb Raider

[StarChampagne]

I don't flat out object to a tech team - Zip was fine in Chronicles for a bit of light relief, and he made sense because he could disable the high-tech security systems and it made sense to have a hacker, but loneliness is a part of Tomb Raider. For example, Last Revelation was the first game I ever got, and for the first three levels you have a NPC walking right next to you or leading the way. When the NPC disappeared I was a little put out, but then I loved it because there was this whole sensation of relying on your own wits and it just being you and Lara. It may be more realistic for Lara to enter an area with backup, but she's always been a free spirit. Yes, it would be a great idea if you lost contact with the tech team! Or even better, Lara *accidentally* crushes the headset or drops it off a cliff. She's a smart girl, she can figure out puzzles by herself (with a little help from you ) - she shouldn't need a tech team.

Imagine you are walking down the Lost Valley, and suddenly somebody back at base pipes up, 'There's a T-Rex coming your way!' and, 'Quick, there's a passageway just on your right to snipe at it from.' That would just deflate the atmosphere a bit... that was a classic moment from TR history, and I hope that if there's events like that in Legend, the tech team should at least keep quiet. She can handle herself

Well, this is just my opinion, but I don't want to see Legend full of sarcastic comments, comebacks and puzzle-spoilers.

[WraithStar]

Originally Posted by StarChampagne

Well, this is just my opinion, but I don't want to see Legend full of sarcastic comments, comebacks and puzzle-spoilers.

Agreed

[dhama]

When I first loaded up Tomb Raider I was astounded by the new perspective if not slightly frustrated at the weird camera angles.... something i'd never experienced before.

But Tomb Raider / Lara Croft has become an obsession for many, almost like a piece of clothing or a new car. Most of us are scrutinizing with a fine tooth comb, but no differently from the first ever play of Tomb Raider, except now we say it out loud together.

There are a lot of things i'd like to change about Tomb Raider, but you can't satisfy everyone can you, otherwise the world would be particularly boring.

No i'm not going to mention the obvious in this thread, because it no longer matters. It's been analysed and covered more than the clothing itself for some time now. It's like an old warn out record. I just want to play the game and then get on with other stuff that is more meaningful.