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Thread: M16

  1. #1
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    Default M16

    Gak ... must be having a brain-dead morning (need more coffee lol), as this was supposed to be a response to this thread's discussion and not a separate post...

    The M16/AR15 was initially licensed by Armalite -- a subdivision or subsidiary of Colt (or was that later -- feeling too tired at the moment to go research).

    All models of the AR15/M16 use 5.55mm ammunition, available in ball (common round) and tracer.

    The differences between models (up to the current version) were very minor and cosmetic ... the A2 does have burst selector mode, whereas previous models did not.

    Too bad 1967 was too early for my personal favorite, the M16/203. Oh well ... perhaps in the sequel.

    Too bad the game limits you to one main weapon, as it was not uncommon to sling the M79 to hang in front of your chest with a buckshot round loaded (for those nasty close-in ambushes), while still carrying an M16. Though the original TO&E (Table of Organization and Equipment) for a 79 gunner was the 79 and a .45 pistol. An FYI -- the M79 had HE (High Explosive, Starshell, buckshot and CS as munition types).

    Take point troop and don't get yourself waxed to the max. Geronimo. -- d2
    Last edited by d-2-502-101abn; 09-22-2004 at 06:08 AM.

  2. #2
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    A thread I would like to forget. Nobody seemed too care but me and several few others, so I just let it go. As a fan of historical games, I just appreciate games that have alot of authenticity..but no else seems to appreciate as much as me. Oh well.

  3. #3
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    Until it was mentioned in another thread I hadn't noticed. However Guerilla are not the only guilty ones.

    Conflict Vietnam makes the same mistake with it's M16 model.
    It's an M16A2 with ribbed foregrip and birdcage flash hider. The magazines are modelled as curved 30 rnd mags but they only contain 20 rounds as per the correct magazine type for that era.

    The Vietcong M16 model does have the black triangular furniture and three pronged flash hider of the original M16.
    Although their model also includes a forward assist. They do however use 20 rnd mag models which they only fill with 18 rnds, for historical accuracy apparently.

    Maybe either of you could correct me on this, the original was the M16 which initially served in Vietnam, during the conflict the M16 was improved. Adding the birdcage flash hider and forward assist. It was redesignated the M16A1. As only the original M16 had the 3 pronged flash hider, does the VietCong model have a forward assist it shouldn't have ?.
    Last edited by systek; 09-21-2004 at 10:17 AM.

  4. #4
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    You are correct: the original AR15/M16 had the three-pronged flash suppressor and no forward assist. The M16A1 closed off the flash suppressor prongs and added the forward assist.

    Take point troop and don't get waxed to the max. Geronimo. -- d2

  5. #5
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    The AR15 originated from the Armalite AR10, a 7,62mm NATO weapon designed by Eugene Stoner. The AR15 was a redesign from that weapon chambered in the 5.56x45mm cartidge..

    The first AR15's where handed to special forces and airforce personel. After general acceptance the AR15 was given it's designation M16. Most of these weapons in the early stages of the war where actually XM16E1's.

    The XM16E1/M16 had no forward assist, a three prong flashhider and most important it lacked the chrome lined chamber and barrel and was still firing 5.56 mm ammo charged with ball powder with a high calciumcarbonate level leading the the infamous jams because no cleaning instructions and sets where provided. A senate hearing and a change of policy an ammo manufacturing changed things a bit for the better

    A forward assist and chrome lining to the chamber and barrel was added with the introduction of the M16A1 along with the 6slot birdcage flashhider. Which was no sooner than 1969-1970. So M16's in 1967 where generally XM16E1 or M16's.

    The M16A2 was introduced in the mideighties with the introduction of the SS109/M855 round which was/is a 62 grain fmj round as opposed to the M193 55 grain FMJ ball. Also the rifling was changed in the A2 from 1/12 to 1/7 to accomodate the longer tracer rounds.

  6. #6
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    Ok, true facts...but I always thought of the M-16 having a .223 i dont know where you got 5.55mm maybe thats another term for a .223...But what was soo unique about a M-16 that the rifling within the m-16 caused the bullet to tumble instead of spin str8 like most weapons...

  7. #7
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    5.56mm is .223 caliber (long). Except in the case of older weapons (.50 cal MG, .45 cal pistol, .30 cal MG), the military has gotten away and uses metric measurement (to be more in concert with NATO allies originally).

    Most other assault rifles used worldwide are 7.62mm (for instance the AK47), the rationale for 5.56mm was (a) lighter ammo, you can carry a lot more 5.56 than 7.62; (b) the 5.56mm round has an extremely high velocity, and generates as much if not more kinetic energy than the 7.62mm-based weapons, which gives it an equivalent impact to the heavier 7.62 round.

    Also, the 5.56mm round has a propensity to tumble, and upon impact, creates some pretty ghastly wounds (there are numerous stories about 5.56mm rounds being deflected by jungle foliage, whereas the heavier 7.62mm rounds would penetrate through).

    The .45 has given way to the 9mm pistol; and the M60 MG (which is of RVN vintage) is 7.62mm and replaced the .30 cal MG. The role of the M60 has been most replaced by the SAW (Squad Automatic Weapon), which has the advantage of using the 5.56mm round, and thus simplifies ammo resupply in the field.

    Take point troop and don't get yourself waxed to the max. Geronimo. -- d2

  8. #8
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    Because there is a very tiny diffence between 5.56x45 mm chambers and .223 Rem chambers, the latter being a bit tighter than the 5.56 mm NATO. Typically you will find 5.56 mm chambers on military issued rifles and semiauto LEO/private use weapons and .223 on per example a Remington 700 bolt action. The military have opted for a 5.56 mm chamber to allow for a wider tolerance whereas a pure .223 chamber will have tighter tolerances.

    Some AR15's which are heavily sporterized have a .223 chamber.

    The thing is both chambers will accept any .223/5.56 mm round.

    Besides that tumbling of the bullet, that was/is a great combination of the 1/12 rifling and the 55 grain bullet. Tumbling characteristics of the 1/7 rifling and the 62 grain M855 are far less compared to it's sixties era predessors.

    But the 5.56/.223 is not the only bullet that tumbles, any bullet being from .45 ACP to 50BMG will tumble under the right circumstances. It's just that the 5.56 mm 55 grain FMJ is balanced so that it's more prone to tumble upon impact. Take the same 55 grain round and shoot it from an AR15/M16 with a faster rifling and it will tumble less than when shot out of a slower (1/12 1/14 rifling).

    Bullets don't tumble in flight, they tumble on impact. Something the russians have exploited to great effect with their 5.45x39 mm round. That bullet weighs 60 grains but is fired out of a slower rifling than the M16A2/M4 family...so they adopted a lightweight ammo with a flatter trajectory than the 7,62x39 but made sure it was at least as effective if not more.

    Having owned several Bushmaster AR15's, an M14 and currently owning an AK47 in 7,62mm. And having handloaded my own ammo you can say I am somewhat familiar with the ammunition
    "used" in the game......you'd be amazed how much fun you can have with big blocks of candle wax and a box of ammo...

  9. #9
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    lol Medic ... just don't get in a firefight where there are thick rubbery leaves.

    In addition to Medic's excellent background information on the M16 et al., there was also a CAR-15 variant for airborne troops that was in use. Mainly characterized by its shorter stock, and different foregrips than those used by legs. (BTW, "leg" is a derogatory term airborne infantry uses for their groundpounder cousins).

    Take point troop and don't get waxed to the max. Geronimo. -- d2

    ps to Medic: Wasn't Armalite started by Stoner?
    Last edited by d-2-502-101abn; 09-22-2004 at 09:34 AM.

  10. #10
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    lol Medic ... just don't get in a firefight where there are thick rubbery leaves
    LOLOLOL, I'll take a .30 cal weapon (M14,Fal or AK) in that case over any 5.56 mm weapon.....the noise of any weapon will get a body flat on the ground, in thick growth you'll want a weapon that makes sure it stays there.....

    p.s. I think Armalite was already there, Stoner just managed to get them to make the AR10 and later on the first AR15's before Colt bought the rights to the AR15.

  11. #11
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    lol Medic ... well, that dispels the myth that the M16 was made by Mattel.

    Thanks for all your expert input on this topic, btw.

    Take point troop and don't get yourself waxed to the max. Geronimo. -- d2

  12. #12
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    Your welcome.....

    The Mattel was a nice legend. Even worse, companies normally into manufacturing laundrymats(sp?) made M16's when Colt couldn't supply the necessary amount of rifles during the peak of the Vietnam War.
    Last edited by MadMedic; 09-22-2004 at 09:51 AM.

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    ... actually did see some of the "Mattel" stamped plastic parts, which is what started the myth to begin with.

    Now as for the laundromat connection ... if I had known that I wouldn't have needed a hootch maid: would just have let my rifle do my laundry. lol.

    Take point troop and don't get yourself waxed to the max. Geronimo. -- d2

  14. #14
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    Did some fast tracking, Mattel officially never made plastic parts for the M16. Some pistol grips from the Mattel M16 toygun found their way on real weapons which did in fact strenghten the myth.

  15. #15
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    Hello-newbie here.

    I have spoken to many firearm enthusiasts.

    Thre are two opposite "camps" of the "tumbling bullet"

    1.) The 5.56/.223 bullet tumbles upon leaving or in flight.

    2.) The 5.56/.223 bullet tumbles upon hitting the target.

    As per 1.), looking at the target damage small entry hole, large exit hole, and other large holes, would have one to believe the tumbling before hitting.

    As per 2.), a rifle barrel being tuned/rifled, all bullets leaving are on a spin, the light weight and caliber of the bullet upon imapct caused a tumbling effect upon impact.

    Now which is it 1.) or 2.)?

  16. #16
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    Also, the 5.56mm round has a propensity to tumble, and upon impact, creates some pretty ghastly wounds (there are numerous stories about 5.56mm rounds being deflected by jungle foliage, whereas the heavier 7.62mm rounds would penetrate through).







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