A question about Kain, Raziel, and free will (Spoilers ahead)

[LucianCorvinas]

Hi, all!

I was just wondering...supposedly everyone is bound by fate, save for Raziel who was "remade" when Kain pulled out the Reaver in SR2.

So, if Raziel is the only person in the world with free will, then Kain's "remaking" of Raziel must have already been pre-dertimined by fate (since Kain never had free will.)

If that is the case, then Raziel's "remaking" is not a remaking at all, as it was destined to happen all along, and the "free will" that every keeps talking about is just an illusion, or a mistaken assumption.

I guess my question is, how can a predetermined event free someone from fate, if that event was fated to happen all along?

[KainOFthehylden]

Kain was supposed to die in William's Chapel...so when Raziel who has free will saved him Kain's path could not be seen by Moebius so he could save Raziel from the Reaver

[Dogfight]

After playing all the games of the series, one of the conclusions I've gathered is that fate is only a construct created by the Elder. This parasitic being manipulates others, causing wars, and spinning dead souls in his Wheel of Fate, enslaving them to artificial destinies he designs. Raziel and Kain are different from everyone else. Raziel's ghost has always had free will but he lacked the ability to use it to its maximum effect until the final paradox at the end of Soul Reaver 2. After this, Raziel by his own choices was able to create history and alter the false destiny that was prescribed to him by the Elder.

spoiler:

Kain, seems to also be to some degree outside of the Elder's control, it could be because of his necromantic vampiric immortality curse, but whether it is due to this, Raziel's choices having a direct symbiotic impact on Kain (In other words if Raziel exorcises his free will, then Kain by the mysterious connection they share is also able to exorcise his own free will.), Kain also having a measure of freedom on his own due to his role as the Scion of Balance or a combination of all these factors it is not known.

There is a type of foreshadowing at the end of Defiance by the Elder's words: "Your fate was trivial Raziel, it was Kain's that mattered all along.", this is followed by the camera view zooming in of the the final Scion of Balance mural. This is likely a hint that Kain is the hero prophesied to destroy the Elder. The Elder himself was merely trying to change his own true destiny, his future death, by enslaving others in his wheel, thereby creating false destinies for them in an attempt to avoid his own fate.

See this link below for more on Raziel's nature.

http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthr...threadid=37589

[kakarot]

ooooooooh the irony.. how it pierces!!

spoiler:

EG: Your efforts are wasted Raziel. That blade however endowed remains only a wraith it cannot touch me

[babifrence]

Hiya Peeps,

Originally posted by Dogfight
After playing all the games of the series, one of the conclusions I've gathered is that fate is only a construct created by the Elder. This parasitic being manipulates others, causing wars, and spinning dead souls in his Wheel of Fate, enslaving them to artificial destinies he designs. Raziel and Kain are different from everyone else. Raziel's ghost has always had free will but he lacked the ability to use it to its maximum effect until the final paradox at the end of Soul Reaver 2. After this, Raziel by his own choices was able to create history and alter the false destiny that was prescribed to him by the Elder.

spoiler:

Kain, seems to also be to some degree outside of the Elder's control, it could be because of his necromantic vampiric immortality curse, but whether it is due to this, Raziel's choices having a direct symbiotic impact on Kain (In other words if Raziel exorcises his free will, then Kain by the mysterious connection they share is also able to exorcise his own free will.), Kain also having a measure of freedom on his own due to his role as the Scion of Balance or a combination of all these factors it is not known.

There is a type of foreshadowing at the end of Defiance by the Elder's words: "Your fate was trivial Raziel, it was Kain's that mattered all along.", this is followed by the camera view zooming in of the the final Scion of Balance mural. This is likely a hint that Kain is the hero prophesied to destroy the Elder. The Elder himself was merely trying to change his own true destiny, his future death, by enslaving others in his wheel, thereby creating false destinies for them in an attempt to avoid his own fate.

See this link below for more on Raziel's nature.

http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthr...threadid=37589

Totally loved and thoroughly agree with your explanation. I haved noticed that you are one of the members on this forum who has a firm grip on the LoK series since I have read your older posts in the past and find your conclusions very intriguing.

The spoiler information was the core of the post Im talking about, I dont really have anything to add to that except that I totally conqur with everything you mentioned .


PEACE OUT !!!

[Validus]

Well what I believe is that Raziel does have free will, but lacks knowledge, making him easy to manipulate.

Anyone remember in SR2 when Kain was talking about time being like a river? The way events have gone, I think that's not quite accurate. It seems more like a spectrum. Along the spectrum are the possibilities of time. Not every single possibility of reality, but rather the possibilities that are actually existant within the spectrum. Even though people can try to curve Raziel's path, it is his actions which choose which points in the spectrum they all go through.

There is free will for Raziel, but even that has its limits.

[kakarot]

Originally posted by DF

spoiler:

This is likely a hint that Kain is the hero prophesied to destroy the Elder. The Elder himself was merely trying to change his own true destiny, his future death, by enslaving others in his wheel, thereby creating false destinies for them in an attempt to avoid his own fate.

..it would be soooooo cool if..

spoiler:

the elder wound up being trapped in the blade releasing raz's soul enabling him to be re-born again (no knowledge of his past life of course) as pillar guardian preferrable death as he was beyond it in his past life. aaaaahhh the possibilities..

is it possible he created Raziel intentionally a Soul Reaver to keep himself from becoming imprisoned within the blade?? i know there's a few points preventing this specifically being able to physically see him.

[babifrence]

Hiya Peeps,

Originally posted by kakarot
..it would be soooooo cool if..

spoiler:

the elder wound up being trapped in the blade releasing raz's soul enabling him to be re-born again (no knowledge of his past life of course) as pillar guardian preferrable death as he was beyond it in his past life. aaaaahhh the possibilities..

is it possible he created Raziel intentionally a Soul Reaver to keep himself from becoming imprisoned within the blade?? i know there's a few points preventing this specifically being able to physically see him.

Interesting point my friend but how do you propose

spoiler:

the Elder would fit into the blade ? I know he is omni-present here and everywhere, you know the drill , so is it possible for him to fit ? Anyway, he was unfettered by the wraith blade courtesy of Raziel - so what do we take from that ?

Just a thought


PEACE OUT !!!

[KainOFthehylden]

spoiler:

EG might fit in the Reaver just like Raziel fits, not like Raziel is smaller than the Reaver but his souyl is imprisonned in the Reaver,,,the same applies for EG

[kakarot]

Originally posted by babifrence
Hiya Peep,

Interesting point my friend but how do you propose EG would fit into the blade ?

Just a thought

PEACE OUT !!!

i'll make 'em fit.. nice n snugg.. (yea right!! ...dreaaam on Raz fans!!)