Ragdoll Physics: Comedy and Tragedy

[ImDrFreak]

So, I'm a bit dissapointed at the inclusion of "ragdoll" physics in this game. They simply do not work for it.

Ragdoll effects are great for FPS games - They work for Painkiller, and will do well for Half-Life 2, but... this isn't those games. It's Thief 3. Garett doesn't shoot people with a ballista, throwing them back a hundred feet. He sneaks up on people and blackjacks them or stabs them or whatever.

Last night, when trying out the game (once I got past startup glitches) I went through the tutorial. I was getting a feeling for the game, getting into the ambiance... I snuck up on the innkeeper and blackjacked him. The mood of suspense was shattered immediately when the great new physics engine had the innkeeper fall backward.. sort of. Actually he fell forward at the waist and backward at the head basically folding himself in half.. backwards... as if he had no spine.

Suddenly It had gone from suspenseful sneaker to funny cartoon. Gah. I mean, initially I laughed because it looked so ridiculous, but shortly I found myself dissapointed.

[mrdie]

yeah, i was like * Whoa! im fighting genenetly enhanced Humans with no Spine! *

[Acronomic]

I guess ghosting pays off after all then!

[Zamza]

I guess it's because it uses the same engine as Deus Ex 2. In the DX2 demo when you shoot a dead body it flys off the ground. It's pretty funny when you shoot it with a machine gun.

[olaf73]

The innkeeper spazzs for me too. He usually folds over on himself and starts to convulse.

olaf

[BloodRiot]

Ragdol in raven shield is particulary funny on stairs... wondering how long he's gonna be dropping stair after stair after stai... ahh.. he finally stopped.. no wait.. his arm is still moving.... ah ok.. now it stopped ;p

[L337Bossman]

I love the ragdoll. Who cares if they bend over every now and then, it certainly isn't every time. It's great fun when they slowly slump over a railing and fall down a flight or two.

[Kill the King]

yes I agree with you it is totally stupid looking and lol funny. I haven't seen one person die yet with out folding over backwards on themselves. It looks ridiculous.

Loren

[Hatetank]

Well, from a geek standpoint, Ragdoll physics really kick butt in this environment (sitting a victim in a chair to give the illusion of all is well, laying one in bed for the same illusion, etc) but I've noticed the same thing you folks have.. it almost seems like the very moment you blackjack someone, they go straight to ragdoll mode, and don't take into consideration the fact that you actually HIT them with something.. I think that would clear up the really tragic "Yoga Pretzel Gumby" syndrome. I mean, the victim should get a little "shove" in the right direction as soon as the physics portion takes over. That would probably give a more believable simulation, I would think. The physics are solid.

[Judas Iscariot]

The ragdoll thing is gonna be looked back on as one of those cute little quirks in a couple of years, you'll see.

[Hatetank]

A victims leg getting caught in the floor while his body flops around is a quirk.. the ragdoll physics thing now is a catastrophe I don't think it will merit more than an eye-roll in a few months. Somethings just aren't funny. Like watching 3 people stand on the body of a guard I just killed while they're looking for me... That's not funny

[Kyrandos]

The physics engine we are speaking about is called Havok, and it was introduced with the second generation Unreal engine. The problem with it is an issue of mass, propulsion, and tensile strength of tissue.

Havok takes advantage of a bone structure built by the modelers, which determines WHERE a limb can bend, where it CAN'T, and the maximum + and - angle it can be bent. However, it does not take into account one major thing - muscle. Muscle does not ALLOW a person bend over backwards like a chinese contortionist (well, unless yer a contortionist). It's not factoring in the compression of matter within the body as weight drives it down upon itself, and the subsequent push as the body levels out.

Further, as hatetank said, there is little to know force programmed in for the blackjack or knife. It SHOULD apply a sharp forward and left pressure to the head, and the body should TOPPLE. Havok does pretty well at modeling a person whose just been shot through the skull, and their entire body is instantly shut off, but does poorly for a person whose simply been knocked uncontious.

Also, I know the feeling about wanting to position bodies in such a way that they look natural to passers-by. Unfortunatly, the game isn't smart enough for that. A dude is sleeping on a bed. Guard walks by - no problem. You blackjack the guy on the bed, looks EXACTLY the same, guard walks by and not only does he notice, he thinks he's DEAD. from a programming standpoint, unless theres some really needlessly convoluted code in there, this would be easy to fix.

[olaf73]

The reason why they use it on bodies is to skimp on death animations. Those are my thoughts anyway.

Ragdoll sucks when applies to bodies upon death, and it always has. Why else would anyone use it if not to save time/resources?

olaf

[Arsonide]

Nah, KARMA physics (ragdoll) are great, a LOT better than death animations (you watch a guy in quake 2 play his death animation while flying through the air and you'll see what I mean, moonwalk death anybody?)...The thing is in most games it's way overexaggerated, which is great for deathmatch games, not for games like Thief...they just need to make it less...crazy...and it'll be fine I imagine.

[ImDrFreak]

A good point is brought up by everyonel. Especially those who love ragdoll physics. I didn't mean to give the impression that I was putting them down at all. I just thought that the way they were implemented seemed.. wrong.

After talking to some people (and showing them the game) It looks like the problem isn't really with the physics engine but that there's a problem with (or lack of) joint constraints. I know the Havok engine allows this.

While the characters should collapse using the engine (could potentially look good). The problem is, they collapse like a wet noodle.

Mark

[mrdie]

this game dose NOT use Havok, it uses Karma, not Havok ( atleast i dont think it uses Havok ) or its Engines Ragdoll.

[Kyrandos]

No really, it does use Havok. Really.

[mrdie]

arg, yeah it uses it ( feels like a asshead )