things fans want in LOK 6

[Syst soultaker]

Some of my ideas for a possible new game:

1. Raziel your shadow, who you can use in combat.
2. Kain further evolved.
3. The return of some armor for kain.
4. The choice between dark gifts.
5. Raziel whispering, and the eyes of the soulreaver glowing, as someone else suggested.

P.S. My first post

[KainvsVorador]

ive recently read in another post that raziel is gone for good. amy hennig wrote him off cuz michael bell didnt want to play him anymore. jerk
anyways, i think kains character is about as evolved as hes going to get short of giving us his teleportation ability or flight. as for choice of dark gifts, i personally like to be able to use ALL of them, and i always hate when you cant do something because youve done something else.
theres nothing like making a paladin in diablo 2 and realizing at level 90 that your aura sucks!
hrm sorry i must have A.D.D.
but it appears that kain is our only hero left. im leaning towards the games somehow culminating with kain martyring himself finally to restore the pillars and righting the wrong after so many years

[Griz]

Originally Posted by KainvsVorador

...ive recently read in another post that raziel is gone for good. amy hennig wrote him off cuz michael bell didnt want to play him anymore.

I never heard that...woah. And I wouldn't be likely to believe it unless it came from an official source.

Anyways...I think that I'd like Raz to stay gone, because if he comes back it pretty much just made his sacrifice useless.

Umm...I'd also like for there to be a female character who isn't a traitorous wench like Umah, is more clothed than the Seer, not as annoying as Ariel...and can kick butt like the boys.

...but that's kind of like asking for the Pacific Ocean to dry up and become a desert, eh?

[Binky24]

Umm...I'd also like for there to be a female character who isn't a traitorous wench like Umah, is more clothed than the Seer, not as annoying as Ariel...and can kick butt like the boys.

...but that's kind of like asking for the Pacific Ocean to dry up and become a desert, eh?

But if she were all these things, would she be liked, or universally becried as a Mary Sue, I wonder?
But I definitely second the "more clothed" part. I'd also add something about the size of Umah's breasts here, but I can't think of anything very much scintillating right now.

[Smoke_Z]

There are some things that automatically make a character a Mary-Sue. If she were one of a group of characters, and no more special than them, and didn't fall in love with Kain, then we could have her not be such a Mary-Sue and still be likeable. (Says the person who hasn't yet made an original character that doesn't smell like a Sue.)

I don't remember if I've actually run the LOK characters through a litmus test, but I imagine that they would score fairly high. The Seer seems like she would be a Mary-Sue if she had more than one scene.

Actually, it would be fantastic if there were finally a female character that doesn't betray Kain's trust. Ariel, Umah, third time's a charm. Though I can't imagine Kain actually trusting her, more like tolerating her presence.

[Griz]

Originally Posted by Binky24

But if she were all these things, would she be liked, or universally becried as a Mary Sue, I wonder?
But I definitely second the "more clothed" part. I'd also add something about the size of Umah's breasts here, but I can't think of anything very much scintillating right now.

Well, I'd settle for a more clothed female character that could kick butt just as well as the boys...:P

[Binky24]

that could kick butt just as well as the boys...:P
Ah. That's a good point. But following that - her trademark weapon should definitely not be the sword. (That actually applies, I think, to a character of either gender.) And nothing too fancy. As Smoke said:
If she were one of a group of characters, and no more special than them, and didn't fall in love with Kain, then we could have her not be such a Mary-Sue and still be likeable.
She should be simply trained in the weapons of the group she comes from.

Also, I don't think it's so much the matter of *her* not falling in love with Kain as *his* not falling in love with her. I think that I really have only one problem with Sues: that they make OCs behave out of character.

And no, no betraying this time. Enough of that. (Although, to be fair to Umah, I understand her point and I *don't* think she betrayed Kain to Hash'ak'Gik. Just to Vorador. Not that it makes it any better, from Kain's POV.)

[Smoke_Z]

Her trademark shouldn't be a sword:
Well, the naginata is considered the weapon most suitable for a woman, something about increased reach and facing off against people with better upper body strength. Actually, I seem to recall SR2 hunters used some kind of long-handled ax or pike.

Weapon typical for her group:
If that group uses swords, then okay. If the chick wants a flamethrower, then by all means.

About the love thing, I would be a little worried about the sanity of someone who would love him if he showed no reciprocation to it. (This is not a bash on the fangirls that fancy Kain. That's more of an admiration fantasy thing.) But yeah, the important thing is that Kain doesn't actually fall for a girl.

[HEXMETAL]

MORE JANOS AUDRON AND THE RETURN OF RAZIEL, IN SOME WAY OR ANOTHER, I'D LIKE TO SEE KAIN WITH THE ABILITY TO MANIPULATE TIME, SO YOU COULD TIME TRAVEL AT ANY GIVEN MOMENT, WITHOUT THE NEED OF A TIME MACHINE, YOU COULD ENTER A TIME REALM, LIKE RAZEL ENTERED THE SPIRIT REALM, FOR INSTANCE.

[KainvsVorador]

what the #$%* is a mary-sue?
anyways, ive wondered if kain would have a new ability in the next game. something the time manipulation or maybe something like shifting to the spectral realm, but only partially or something, since raziel is in the reaver now, that would be cool if the reaver could move back and forth through the realms, at kains will of course.
as for love, come on people, we all know kains one true love is power, he prolly wouldnt have gotten off his a$$ in the SR1 era to change the world if his kingdom wasnt full of half lizard and spider vampires, and liutenants that eventualy would have probably turned on him out of boredom.
although, they did sort of make it seem like kain almost felt guilty for the way things turned out and thats why he went back in time... i guess a little from column A and a little from column B. i suppose if kain did feel guilty hed be capable of loving some devious vampire chick, but i doubt it would make for a good game without being turned into some cheesy romance novel.
I have a question for you all.
Do you think it would ever be possible for kain to rule nosgoth, and still have nosgoth the uncorrupted paradise like it was in the time of the sarafan?

personally i think kain is the type that would always go out now and then when he gets bored and tear some peoples arms off and beat them with the wet end for funsies. im sure after a while the humans would plan some sort of revolt.
i guess it could be just like it is in SR1 only uncorrupted, still having the humans boxed in that little alcove.
maybe kain could just have human liutenants or "familiars" like in the blade series, then they would all just worship him and give him sacrifices and stuff. im sure uberkain of however many years would be more able to keep people in line that cocky kain from blood omen.

[Smoke_Z]

Originally Posted by KainvsVorador

what the #$%* is a mary-sue?

.........

I have a question for you all.
Do you think it would ever be possible for kain to rule nosgoth, and still have nosgoth the uncorrupted paradise like it was in the time of the sarafan?

http://www.subreality.com/marysue/explain.htm or anyone who gets in romantic involvement with the LOK vampires.

I think part of the problem with the SR1 era was the furnaces. Kain might not've known about ecological disasters, or simply not care because the pillars were screwing the environment anyway. If part of his healing involves suddenly realizing a natural balance that includes humans and vampires and the best interests for everything, he's got a chance.

[KainvsVorador]

Bah, the furnaces dont have have anything to do with the corruption of nosgoth. the corruption began before blood omen 1 when the pillars were screwed. "ecological disasters" is a pretty grandiose term for poofing up some ash to block the sun, and since kain isnt an oil tycoon invading nosgiraq next door to nosgoth, i dont personally think ecological disasters are going to matter unless kain decided to kill every tree in nosgoth the way mobius killed every vampire, and personally i think hed rather chew on a childs femer bone while sipping a glass of sanguine 47.
my point was... if the pillars were somehow restored with kain still alive, does anyone think based on his character change over the series, that he would some how be able to rule nosgoth without having such an ugly future? like maybe not even having any vampires under him and just having the humans worship him as their god and bring him sacrifices maybe? hehe humans are certainly stoopid enough

[Smoke_Z]

Originally Posted by KainvsVorador

my point was... if the pillars were somehow restored with kain still alive, does anyone think based on his character change over the series, that he would some how be able to rule nosgoth without having such an ugly future? like maybe not even having any vampires under him and just having the humans worship him as their god and bring him sacrifices maybe? hehe humans are certainly stoopid enough

Kain would still have vampires, maybe even a fresh batch if he can figure out how to do it the "traditional" way.

I tend to think that a major part of the mind taint was to inspire selfishness and power-hunger. Kain might have no more desire to rule the world with an iron fist. He might still retain his monarchy simply to prevent the chaos of leaving the world leaderless. Didn't the alchemist say something like: the pillars exist for us, we don't exist for them.

I'm not sure how idealistic it is for Nosgothic vampires to have a truce where they are "fed" from blood drives and criminals. Kain's attitude might not have shifted that much. It might be more about treating the livestock properly, (example: not torturing them but rather make them dead before they realize the danger.)

[dumah's wraith]

Originally Posted by Smoke_Z

Her trademark shouldn't be a sword:
Well, the naginata is considered the weapon most suitable for a woman, something about increased reach and facing off against people with better upper body strength. Actually, I seem to recall SR2 hunters used some kind of long-handled ax or pike.

Weapon typical for her group:
If that group uses swords, then okay. If the chick wants a flamethrower, then by all means.

About the love thing, I would be a little worried about the sanity of someone who would love him if he showed no reciprocation to it. (This is not a bash on the fangirls that fancy Kain. That's more of an admiration fantasy thing.) But yeah, the important thing is that Kain doesn't actually fall for a girl.

Naginata? What the ?

[Binky24]

Naginata=A seven-foot-long Japanese halberd from the Sengoku/Edo period. Mostly a female weapon, because of what Smoke_Z said.

"ecological disasters" is a pretty grandiose term for poofing up some ash to block the sun, and since kain isnt an oil tycoon invading nosgiraq next door to nosgoth, i dont personally think ecological disasters are going to matter unless kain decided to kill every tree in nosgoth

One question: was there a single tree in SR1 Nosgoth? Because I don't remember seeing any. And the smokestack certainly needs something for fuel... (Actually, that question is bothering me right now. Just what they use(d) to power it? Wood? Natural gas, as in the rest of Nosgoth? Magma?)

And ecological disasters certainly did not start in 20th century on Earth! In fact, what's happening in SR1 Nosgoth mimics the Industrial Revolution-period Great Britain, and try telling me *that* was not an ecological disaster...

[Smoke_Z]

Originally Posted by dumah's wraith

Naginata? What the ?

http://www.naginata.org/background.html Obviously a European equivalent would fit better in LOK.

As for fuel for the smokestacks, I once saw a fanfiction where the Turelim were reduced to ripping off patches of their skin feed to the furnace.

There was mining back in Kain's fledgeling days, and underground tunnels in the SR era, they might've had coal. There was also evidence of natural gas, but that alone doesn't make much smog. They could have even managed to find oil.

That, or the furnaces weren't running at full capacity by the SR era. That might have been where all the trees went. (Seems to me that some things were made of wood, but I can't think of anything except the rafters in the drowned abbey and the interior of Nupraptor's retreat.)

[Binky24]

(Seems to me that some things were made of wood, but I can't think of anything except the rafters in the drowned abbey and the interior of Nupraptor's retreat.)
And the torches. And the bonfires, and that's what irks me the most, heh. Who lit them? The vampires? Video-game-lack-of-logic. :sigh:

There was mining back in Kain's fledgeling days, and underground tunnels in the SR era, they might've had coal. There was also evidence of natural gas, but that alone doesn't make much smog. They could have even managed to find oil.
Oil often goes with gas. Hmm. But mining on volcanic terrain? *Coal* mining on volcanic terrain? *Underground tunnels* on volcanic terrain?
(I hope you don't think I'm laughing at your ideas. I'm not. I'm just... 'exasperated' is a good word, I think, by my own limitations.)

Do you think that Kain would turn off the smokestack(s), if given the opportunity? One thing that somewhat surprised me was how both he and Raziel mused about the purity of past Nosgoth... Especially given what's written in the manual to SR1 (in Raziel's voice):

Huge furnaces were built to belch smoke into the sky, shielding the land from the poisonous effects of the sun. Never had the world known a time of such beauty.

When I first heard Raziel in SR2, I thought - well, he had been brainwashed, now he's angry at Kain, so he's overreacting the other way... But then *Kain* said a very similar thing in Defiance, and I was ...

[Smoke_Z]

Video game logic dictates that the Sarafan had some way of navigating the canyons around Ushtenheim, even though Raziel had to use his wall-scaling skill.

Originally Posted by Binky24

Oil often goes with gas. Hmm. But mining on volcanic terrain? *Coal* mining on volcanic terrain? *Underground tunnels* on volcanic terrain?
(I hope you don't think I'm laughing at your ideas. I'm not. I'm just... 'exasperated' is a good word, I think, by my own limitations.)

They could have been coal mining in the Rahabim territory and shipping it to Turel. (I know, coal mining in the drowned abbey area makes even less sense.)

Originally Posted by Binky24

Huge furnaces were built to belch smoke into the sky, shielding the land from the poisonous effects of the sun. Never had the world known a time of such beauty.

When I first heard Raziel in SR2, I thought - well, he had been brainwashed, now he's angry at Kain, so he's overreacting the other way... But then *Kain* said a very similar thing in Defiance, and I was ...

Maybe Kain forgot, or rather he'd never been to the past before Raziel started chasing him. The land was already sickening when Kain was growing up.

Then again, the manual reffers to Raziel's view, where dark=good. Kain might have held both the vampire and human viewpoint of beauty.

Are you refferring to when Kain first encounters the pillars in Defiance? I think that he's in awe of the way they are when they're in their proper state.

[KainvsVorador]

Originally Posted by Binky24

Huge furnaces were built to belch smoke into the sky, shielding the land from the poisonous effects of the sun. Never had the world known a time of such beauty.

When I first heard Raziel in SR2, I thought - well, he had been brainwashed, now he's angry at Kain, so he's overreacting the other way... But then *Kain* said a very similar thing in Defiance, and I was ...

I suspect that in the time raziel was in the lake and kain watched his other children grow grotesque was when his attitude really started to change, and he started visiting the chronoplast chamber. its my opinion that whatever kain and raziels attitudes were before raziels cordless bungee jump into the lake, they must have changed dramatically. i dont know about you, but if i were a vampire king and i watched my world go to crap, id probably rather not be king than be a king of garbage. im sure after centuries, anyones strongest opinions would change.

[Binky24]

Video game logic dictates that the Sarafan had some way of navigating the canyons around Ushtenheim, even though Raziel had to use his wall-scaling skill.
Nah. That's real-life logic. Video game logic dictates that you'll always find ammo inside tombs that have been supposedly sealed for millennia, and it'll always fit your weapons.
That, or that when you know that you need a fire source, you have to ignore a fire, open a mysterious sealed door, move a couple of blocks, ignore the fire that then shoots, fight a couple of dead tomb guardians...

Then again, the manual reffers to Raziel's view, where dark=good.
Yes, but someone must have inculcated (gods, what a word!) this attitude into him.
Although after you have forced me to reconsider, I now agree with you that Kain could have been talking only about the Pillars. Thanks!
Although I still think that the smokestack has to go.

KainvsVorador - You know, I think I agree, although I somehow think that Kain first visited the Chronoplast, and then threw Raziel into the Abyss... That's not to say he wouldn't have done it if there was no matter of destiny involved.

[KainvsVorador]

ive always sort of wondered that.
did kain actually toss raziel into the abyss because of jealousy of the wings? or did kain actually visit the chronoplast before, and foresee raziels true fate.
Although~ part of me thinks he just threw him in out of anger, because no one can truly see raziels destiny as he is unbound from the wheel.
Although~ the better part of me thinks that since mobius knew to grab raziel out of the time stream at the end of SR1, maybe all kain would have seen in that chronoplast is a big dark cloud where the future would be -- provided he threw raziel into the abyss.

mobius did say "you sought to introduce your own pawn into the game"
from this i am pretty resolved that Binky is correct, and kain knew that raziel was the key to unravelling history and changing things for the better, and so he had him thrown in the lake.

[majinkura]

Originally Posted by KainOFthehylden

oh i'll add one:
wanna see kain kill mobiues one more time

1. i'd like that too...

but EG ate him

so...nope not gonna happen again....
i like seeing mobi die again and again and again....

2. yes more raziel please even though

he's the sword now

....

3. no more puzzles >_<
4. FIX the D@#$ CAMERA!!......you don't know how many times i have gotten stuck because of it......*walks away from controller*
5. Death to EG...since Tony Jay is gone no one can fill his shoes...NO ONE!
(like what they did in GG to Zato1 and his VO....RIP Kaneto Shiozawa.... :_: )

nuff said....

[KainvsVorador]

OK ive heard this several times now
if tony jay and simon templeman arent willing to do more LOK will someone PLEASE list the source they heard this from so i can read it PLEASE i will personally make a new thread just to talk about how great you are if you do this little thing for me.

[Griz]

Originally Posted by KainvsVorador

OK ive heard this several times now
if tony jay and simon templeman arent willing to do more LOK will someone PLEASE list the source they heard this from so i can read it PLEASE i will personally make a new thread just to talk about how great you are if you do this little thing for me.

Well...Tony Jay has...kind of...passed away. So there's no way he's doing any more LoK. Simon Templeman, I don't know about...but if someone HAS said that he's not willing to do any more LoK...all I have to say is "cite plz."

[KainvsVorador]

everyone please check out my latest brainstorm

http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthr...820#post593820