FM: Undead Reckoning - How to get out of cathedral?

[Vanguard]

I ghosted the cathedral. Used the slowfall potion to get in without damage, got the gem stick by the zombie stuck on a ledge, got up onto the framework over the haunts and ghost, roped down to the horn to snatch it, went all the way up, and am now at the double doors that you see across the cravass when you entered the cathedral.

There is nowhere that I see to use a rope arrow to let you jump across the cravass. The cravass is too wide to jump across. Garrett always jumps like a stiff Gumby in that he cannot lunge forward but always jumps while perfectly vertical. I cannot jump far enough to snatch the edge of the ground on the other side.

Was there some magic floating potion that I was supposed to find before getting into the cathedral (although obviously I was not detered in getting into the cathedral)?

[dafydd]

[Vanguard]

In case you haven't already figured it out (I haven't checked over on TtLG to see if your question was answered there), there is a button on the pillar to the left of the altar (left as you stand and face it) that somehow -- magically, I presume -- creates a bridge across that gap.

Did you get down into the crypt and get the rosary beads yet? You can't leave until you do so. Check the torches up high on the pillars; one of them isn't lit....

Dafydd

[Peter Smith]

Brilliant, Daffyd. I never would have seen the torch without your help. Now I am down in the lowest part of the crypt, and I cannot find a way to

get on top of the tomb that has the tunnel above it. While down there I found a note about the switch and the bridge, so that is no secret anymore. But that torch was a doozie. Anyway, if you happen by, please give me a hint about how to get into that tunnel above the tomb.

[Peter Smith]

OK, never mind. I got the rosary and made it out of the cathedral. That was a most excellent rope climbing puzzle. I was really sweating it with only two ropes at my disposal, meaning I did the crypt with only one.

[Yandros]

Wow, getting out of the crypt with a single rope is challenging... I needed two and had both, thankfully. The ropework and mantling in this mission was great, almost TR-like in a way.

dafydd, I'm curious... how did you get into the crypt without alerting the apparition?

[Peter Smith]

I'll answer that. You just mantle onto the movable tomb from the right hand side (it is quiet) and slide jump onto the ladder. The problem I found is that when lifting the tombs on the lower level all the apparitions appear in an alerted state. They calm down quickly, but I think it is a bust in any case.

[Yandros]

Is it a bust if they're set to an alerted state by the author? Since I don't ghost, I extinguished all the torches before

pushing the button

and they still began alerted even though they couldn't see me. I'm not saying for sure that John did anything special to make them alerted - I imagine the sounds of all the tombs going up is what alerts them.

[Peter Smith]

This is a very subtle point of the ghost rules, and one not adequately covered, even by the current version, which has been disccussed to death. It is true that a scripted event that causes an alert or even a killing (archers in LotP) is not a bust according to the current interpretation. However, this exception is allowed only if they do not actually see or hear you. In the case of those tombs, if you stay by the switch they come hunting for you and find you, which is a definite bust. If you creep run to the far end where the elevator shaft is, then they do not come for you, but then you cannot argue that they did not see you. In this gray area, I think the player can call it as he sees it, and then there may be some debate. There can be no objection if the player calls it a bust. There may be objection if he player calls it a success. The safe thing to do is to call it a bust. There is even an interpretation in the current proposed rules that mentions this point -- there is no shame in being busted.

I would carry on gosting and then mention this event as a bust.

[john9818a]

I think this may have been my fault in designing the mission. It is true that AI can see through objects, and in this case being the sarcophogus. When you run into the lowest crypt area the apparitions can see you anyway. The only way to prevent them from seeing you is to shoot out the torches before you walk past the first apparition. This is an oversight on my part and I appologize for this boo boo.



John

[Peter Smith]

Thanks for stopping by John. You have absolutely nothing to apologize about. There is no need to make a mission ghostable. In fact, the current trend of designers to try to make it so takes some of the suspense and difficulty out of it.

I would like to congratulate you on a terriffic mission. I may be half way through it (no way to tell). So far, I think it is one of my favorite undead missions of all time. The atmosphere and architecture are great.

[john9818a]

Thank you Peter Smith, I'm still contemplating on making my next FM, but I need some rest. Maybe later this year...

[dafydd]

[Peter, Yandros]

I did a more direct method of not alerting the ghost near the altar: I had previously snuffed out the two fires above the hammer; I mossed the area near the ladder... and I actually waited until he had his back turned to crouch-run to the ladder!

I was up and over it and down into darkness before he turned back, and he didn't alert.

As far as the apparitions, they didn't come up alerted for me... probably because the first time I did it, I didn't blow out any torches -- and they swarmed over me and killed me. My reload was before I entered that room... since I had already concluded I had to water the torches, I did it as I walked through -- getting the first two before I passed the first line of sarcophagi and the next before I passed the next line.

Note: I believe they're all facing toward the statue, away from the door... so if you get the torches from behind (before you pass the first sarcophagus line), they never even know you're there.

Thus, inadvertently, I did just what I had to do. The spooks came up totally unalerted. I crouch-sprinted down the aisle as they rose, and when I looked back, they were just standing there like dummies.

I shot a moss arrow at the elevator as it rose, so I could jump onto it without worrying about the clang; and I had no problems.

Peter... how did you climb out with only one rope arrow? And why did you only have one? You had to leave one up on the lower set of rafters after grabbing the Horn of Quintus? I did... but then, I ended up with four rope arrows when I did the cathedral: I had two at the beginning, I bought one at the store, and I collected two more in the armory on Cathedral Street; then I left one behind when I visited the opera-singing hermit... so I still had rope arrows to burn!

(I left the one I used for the Horn, and I lost another one when I climbed out of the hermit hole. I ended the mission with three, I think.)

Dafydd

[Peter Smith]

Originally posted by dafydd
Peter... how did you climb out with only one rope arrow? And why did you only have one? You had to leave one up on the lower set of rafters after grabbing the Horn of Quintus? I did... but then, I ended up with four rope arrows when I did the cathedral: I had two at the beginning, I bought one at the store, and I collected two more in the armory on Cathedral Street; then I left one behind when I visited the opera-singing hermit... so I still had rope arrows to burn!

I started out with only two ropes (I did not buy any, because in my experience it is never necessary), and I went into the cathedral first thing. From exploration in the upper rafters, I knew I had to get back up there after visiting the crypt. I could not find a good way to retrieve my rope from up there and go down to the ground floor without either damage from the fall or potentially alerting the AI by jumping down the protruding stones by the altar. So, I saved my game up top and went down the rope that I has used to climb up, leaving the rope in place (to be climbed and retrieved later).

Going into the crypt I jumped down into the water. That was no problem. Coming back out, there was only one tricky bit. I first shot a rope arrow into the side of the beam above the 2nd story opening, a little way out from the wall. Climbed the rope to the opening and jumped into the room and got the loot. Then I jumped out the opening onto the rope, climbed to the top, and mantled on top of the beam. I saved the game and tried roping to the other beam and jumping over, but it was too far. So, I reloaded, retrieved the rope from the 2nd story beam, jumped back into the water, roped back up the second story and jumped into the opening again. From there, I jumped onto the sill of the 2nd floor opening and retrieved the rope from the beam above. From the sill, I shot the rope into the side of the beam above the 3rd story opening, as close to the wall as I could. Then I hopped off the sill to the interior of the 2nd floor room, walked around to the opening where the rope was hanging down, and jumped out onto the rope at the 2nd level. Then I climbed the rope to the third level, near the top of the arch, turned 180 degrees, and let myself down on the sill, retrieving the rope. Hopped back in on the third level and left. That's it.

FYI, I found two more ropes later. I still have four, leaving none behind. It is against my religeon to leave ropes behind if I can possibly retrieve them.

I have almost finished the mission. I am carrying the woman out (optional objective) and I have the gear. But I am missing a lot of loot. I have about 1860 of 2500 required, around 2800 possible. Aargh! I found a secret in a tower,

switching a telescope, but that did not disclose a stash or anything else I could find.

I have done all the second story work I could see, crawling on ledges, jumping across, etc. Got the statue on the wall. Went into a hole in the ground and got something in there. In the warehouse, I got the item from the chest by the sleeping servant girl - she wakes up so I BJ'ed her. Did the cage puzzle. Got only one ring in the huts on the roof of the warehouse. Opened all the orange doors and went into a couple of crate holes to get loot. Got the crystal next to the barrel. Did not find any loot in the mage's cave. Killed the mages so I could hunt more carefully without being shot at. I guess I have blown the ghost.

If anyone knows of a major area I missed, please clue me in.

[Old Man]

A technique I've used before that may help in future. The first playthrough, descending from the Cathedral's lower beams, I jumped from the higher of the two stepping stones directly onto the ladder going down into the crypt. Garrett can drop enormous heights with no injury when landing on a ladder or a Rope arrow. Not suitable for Ironman but sometimes useful. You'd be surprised how good your hand-eye gets for this sort of thing after years of practice.

And something else I've come to count on. The first time I looked down the Cathedral entrance and saw that slanted landing zone I ran off the edge and hit on the run with no damage. I was surprised to hear so many used the Slowfall potion for this.

And like Peter Smith I will go to extreme lengths to retrieve my Rope arrows. I can't remember the last time I had to leave one behind. They're expensive!

[john9818a]

Dafydd, Peter


When you frob the telescope it moves the flat car outside to reveal the hermit hole. When using an arrow to come back out, I climbed up the rope almost to the top, and then did a sequence of "right click & jump" to get the rope arrow and keep me from falling right back down into the hole.

When retrieving the arrow above the Horn, I shot a moss arrow into the area and then jumped up to grab the arrow. Also I shot moss arrows into the stone shelves sticking out of the cathedral wall in order to jump down quietly.

John

[dafydd]

[John]

When retrieving the arrow above the Horn, I shot a moss arrow into the area and then jumped up to grab the arrow. Also I shot moss arrows into the stone shelves sticking out of the cathedral wall in order to jump down quietly.

I was woefully short of moss arrows by this point... I think I was down to two. I concluded -- rightly, as it turned out -- that mossers were more important to save than the rope arrow .

[Peter]

If you've knocked out the fires on either side of the hammer and the torch in the rafters, you have plenty of darkness on the sides of the altar. And you don't need to use a rope arrow to get down.

I mossed the upper platform (below the rafter) on the left side of the altar -- the side away from where the altar itself moves when you frob the torch.

I hopped onto the platform when the ghost's back was turned and no haunts were nearby. I flashed bright while jumping, but on the platform itself, I was dark... nobody saw me.

Getting down from there was harder and required some Dark Engine manipulations. If I jumped to the lower platform itself, I made a noise, and I was too well lit; but if I jumped all the way to the floor, I took damage.

So I used a little trick I only recently discovered (from reading about it here, I think): I deliberately jumped at the edge of the lower platform so that I ricocheted off onto the floor. This makes no sound, because you're hitting the edge of the platform... but you also take no damage, even though you go all the way to the floor. (I confess, I didn't think of jumping all the way to the ladder... that's clever, Old Man!) I had to aim myself well, then crouch-run at full speed off the upper platform; this gave me just enough oomph to graze the near-side edge on the way down.

I might have made noise when I hit the floor; but I had shot my moss arrow enough at the far-side edge of the upper platform (from the rafters above) that it slopped over onto the floor below... so I landed silently after carombing off the edge of the lower platform. At that point, I was in darkness, down without alerting anyone.

From there, I just waited until the haunts were busy haunting the door end of the apse and the ghost was staring elsewhere; then I stood, ran, and jumped over the close ladder to the far-side ladder and downclimbed into darkness. I closed the altar, since I hate listening to the disjointed "radio interference" of the ghosts.

Climbing out: I had looted the three levels on the way down, not up. I didn't jump into the water; I'm always reluctant to take irrevocable steps until I'm certain I have somewhere to go after that. Besides, I didn't know how deep the water was... if it were an ankle-deep wading pool, I would be killed. Seeing a dead guy down there didn't improve my odds, in my opinion .

I'm trying to remember... I think I leaned out from the top level and shot a rope arrow into one of the beams sticking out above me, then ran and leapt onto it. I climbed down to the second level and looted it, then ran and leapt onto the rope again and climbed down until I reached the end and dropped off (unhurt) onto the floor.

Exiting, I realized the rope was too far above the floor to jump onto. But I also saw that one of the beams was lower than the one I had used, so I shot an arrow into the bottom of that one. It dangled low enough that I could mantle onto the railing and run-jump onto the rope... but I don't think it went up as far as the third level (I can't quite recall). I think I hopped from the rope onto the railing of the second floor, retrieved the rope, then hopped onto the second floor and walked around to my other rope; I jumped onto it, climbed up to the third, then hopped onto the railing and retrieved that rope as well.

Dafydd

[Peter Smith]

Well, I finished the mission. I found quite a bit of additional loot. Three items from Dafydd's ghost report: ring in church, torq in roof hut, and chimney secret. I found two items on my own: gold nugget at cross in building gable, and cemetery secret. Now I have 5/5 secrets. I found one thing from the loot list: ring in sill of basement window (very hard to see). Now I have 2719 of 2819 obtainable, and I think I know what I am missing. A purse in a window of a bell tower. I see only one bell tower, the one on the flat roof on the South side of the main street. It is solid inside, and I cannot get to a window on the outside. What am I doing wrong?

Others have said it, but I would like to comment that the loot objective on Expert is too difficult. Many players don't like tough loot hunts after all else is completed. I almost gave up myself, and it was only with my loot-hound attitude plus some help from others that I went over 2500. I think 2000 would be fair. I basically completed the mission in around 4 hours and needed an additional 2 hours to get my last 800 loot.

Apart from that and a lot of textures that cause you to get stuck, I really enjoyed playing it. Thanks, John.

[Old Man]

Originally posted by Peter Smith
... A purse in a window of a bell tower. I see only one bell tower, the one on the flat roof on the South side of the main street. It is solid inside, and I cannot get to a window on the outside. What am I doing wrong? ..

It's actually closer to the base of the tower, Peter. Access from below the wooden guard lookout post.

[Peter Smith]

I don't see any access to the base of the bell tower from the wood platorms, or anywhere near the platforms. I am referring to the platforms that three guards were standing on. I may have picked up a purse there already, so my missing 100 could be somewhere else. Would someone tell me exactly where the purse is / was, or the access is? I see a banner on the stone wall, but no way to get up to it.

[Old Man]

Originally posted by Peter Smith
I don't see any access to the base of the bell tower from the wood platorms, or anywhere near the platforms. I am referring to the platforms that three guards were standing on. I may have picked up a purse there already, so my missing 100 could be somewhere else. Would someone tell me exactly where the purse is / was, or the access is? I see a banner on the stone wall, but no way to get up to it.

My recollection is that the purse is quite visible while standing under the archer sentry on the right. From there I just put a Rope arrow into the platform by that sentry's feet and shinnied up, turned, and grabbed the purse. If it's not there then you've got it already.

[Vanguard]

I believe one of the Expert objectives is to get the bronze [gear] key. If you approach the gal on the warehouse roof standing in a hut, you get a new objective to take her past the east gate which requires the gear key. Okay, so I went down the hole in bay #2, snuck past the zombies (who aren't a threat in non-Ghost mode, anyway, since they're all stuck in cubby holes on a ledge), mossed the metal floor, and timed when to run down the blast chute between the fire blasts.

However, after getting down past the blast chute and into the mage area with the hovering stones (where is the bronze gear key), I always get spotted by a mage when I land. The landing zone is highly lit and I always gets spotted by a mage.

So, Peter or anyone else that ghosted the bronze key, how did you do it?

[dafydd]

[Vanguard]

Nobody has ghosted this area, V. I'm pretty sure it's unghostable.

I ghosted the entire mission except for this area, and I'm pretty sure Peter didn't ghost the bronze-gear area either. I know that Old Man didn't.

So unless you can find some super-secret invisibility potion somewhere....

Dafydd

[Peter Smith]

Originally posted by Old Man
My recollection is that the purse is quite visible while standing under the archer sentry on the right. From there I just put a Rope arrow into the platform by that sentry's feet and shinnied up, turned, and grabbed the purse. If it's not there then you've got it already.

Thanks, Old Man. Well, it might be quite visible, but I didn't see it. So, with that purse, I have 2819, which is all the loot that is obtainable. An unobtainable tiara worth 125 is buried somewhere, according to John's loot list. This tiara, if obtainable, would bring the game stat value to 2944.


Vanguard,

No, I did not ghost the gear. The mage's shoot at you when you first start hopping. I made it past them without damage by moving quickly, but when I went back a second time I just killed them and called it a day.

I also could not ghost the servant girl in the basement of the warehouse. Dafydd did that, but I don't know how. I could open the door without alerting her, by stopping the door half way (lean against the hinge), but I could not pick the lock on the chest. First pick, and she bolted. She got a headache for her trouble.

I also got busted in the crypt by the apparitions under the rising tombs, but John and Dafydd have explained how to do that.

In the end, I did a lot of damage looking for loot because the ghosting loot hunt got too tedious. I know I could do it with zero damage and one exception now, but I think that the lava room blows the ghost in any case.

[dafydd]

[Peter]

1. Go down into the basement; crouch facing the (closed) door behind which is the girl.

2. Press yourself as far to the right as possible, right up against the electric light.

3. Open the door. The girl will awaken, stand on her bed, facing to your left. She will not see you or alert; you are outside her peripheral vision if you're pressed right up against the right-hand wall.

4. Crouch there for a couple of minutes watching her. Let her calm down.

5. Pressed as far to the right as you can, creep into the room. You will have to edge to the left a bit to clear the doorlatch, but then edge right back. Creep forward until you enter the room, and your light gem changes.

6. Turn and creep towards the chest. She won't see you because you're no longer in the bright light of the corridor outside.

7. Pick the chest; big-value tiara (150, I think).

8. Exit the way you came: move back within the room to the door, turn and slide along the door into the corridor again.

9. When you're back in the corridor, close the door.

Et voila!

Dafydd