[SPOILER] Great Game *RUINED* by awful camera

[yumbelie]

Okay, what on earth was the thinking behind this camera? It's simply awful - *PLEASE* a fix to just leave it tailing my character - I hate the 'flexability' - it makes simple puzzles a nightmare. - Seriously, It's really awful - I cannot conceivebly see how this got past Q&A - I loathe the way the controls invert depending upon where the camera is - normally this would be fine - because you know your guy is x metres in front of the camera, however this new 'cinematic' angle is just crap. Cinematic cameras are for cinematics - hence the name, they *don't* make good gameplay - especially when you've bound the players X Y & Z movements based on the cameras position. *PRETTY PLEASE* give me the option to have it trail in third person like just about every other 3rd Person title out there!

Yumbelie.

PS. The artwork, voiceovers and storyline are superb.

[Apocrypha Roxy]

Everyone has pretty much griped about the camera. Although considering how it is layed out, the game would not be playable in a normal mode of camera - you wouldn't see walls or hallways as normal. The Spirit forge with the Earth Reaver, you'd never see the platforms to jump onto if the camera didn't shift.

Once you play a few times, you become adjusted. Plus, it looks better from the side when you beat the crap out of Sarafan, rather than from the back.

[Protector_Malek]

that's a good point

[BadSector]

Originally posted by yumbelie
Okay, what on earth was the thinking behind this camera? It's simply awful - *PLEASE* a fix to just leave it tailing my character - I hate the 'flexability' - it makes simple puzzles a nightmare. - Seriously, It's really awful - I cannot conceivebly see how this got past Q&A - I loathe the way the controls invert depending upon where the camera is - normally this would be fine - because you know your guy is x metres in front of the camera, however this new 'cinematic' angle is just crap. Cinematic cameras are for cinematics - hence the name, they *don't* make good gameplay - especially when you've bound the players X Y & Z movements based on the cameras position. *PRETTY PLEASE* give me the option to have it trail in third person like just about every other 3rd Person title out there!

Yumbelie.

PS. The artwork, voiceovers and storyline are superb.

My point exactly!!! How could vou RUIN this otherwise SUPERB game with such CRAPPY camera CD???

[blincoln]

Uh, some of us *liked* the camera. Have you ever played Devil May Cry, Ico, Eternal Darkness. Resident Evil, or other games with cinematic cams? They're far superior to follow-cams.

If you really must see how lame it is to try playing the game with the old style camera, get the PS2 version and a Codebreaker, and you'll be able to try it out using codes from my site.

[Omega]

I agree with Ben. The camera was great, as most of us liked it.

I'm really tiring of these 'I hate the Camerea' threads.

Crystal Dynamics have done it for a reason, and it works perfectly fine.

If you've got a problem with it, go to your eye-doctor for problems with depth-percetion

[Zephonsfate]

I agree about tireing from the camera posts, people who do try the codebreaker code that switches the camera style must understand that this game was never designed to work with the followcam, but rather the cinematic cam we have. So of course if you were able to play with a camera not really made for the game then it would be a bit rough. It would be like trying to play Halo with a cinematic camera angle. That would make a game like Halo so hard to play unless major adjustments in targeting were made. Likewise with Defiance, if adjustments were made to the code then the follow camera could and would work in Defiance like it did in the past LOK games. Sure, some of the scenery that pans out would have to be seen through the FP view, but it would be playable if things were tweaked. However they are not going to be so there really is no point in hammering it out. So, while you might try the code Blincoln has posted on his site, know that though it does not make the game fun, it was not meant to be used in the game so don't expect deja vu of SR2 in the camera department.

[Goator]

When ever i started playing Legacy of Kain series game, at first i have hated the movement, the camera and in no team it grows a part of you and you wouldn't have it any other way just take some adjusting, tho i checked the new camera thing but this seems more than handful might take bit longer to get used to, noticed that my character keeps running outside the camera all the time

[kakarot]

I remember I complained about the cam.. I went back to play SR1 and was frustrated that it wasn't moving along with me.. I guess I finally got used to the cam.

[exo]

Just because a previous game used the same camera system DOESN'T make it good, DMC I believe was the WORST for this, if you were fighting and retreated just enough to force the camera to change positions you could be getting blasted behind a wall by enemies and not even know it besides for your plummeting life bar.

If you want a real camera system that ALSO shows off puzzles try Prince of Persia friend. That camera is a PERFECT example of how it should be done for a combat + puzzle happy game. This fixed camera silliness is why games like Resident Evil are a CHORE to play.

[W. Raider]

Uh, some of us *liked* the camera. Have you ever played Devil May Cry, Ico, Eternal Darkness. Resident Evil, or other games with cinematic cams? They're far superior to follow-cams.

Please explain how a camera like this or a locked off camera like in RE is better than SR1's camera? I mean, how is looking at your character looking into a room, where you can't see into the room, yet your character can, and is getting attacked by "something" you can't see because of the camera position?

Also, how is running towards the camera, again where the character can see where he's going, only you who are controlling the camera can't, and therefore run right into a wall better?

And running underneath the camera, only to have it spin around and around as you try to find the correct way to push the character out of this camera perspective loop better?

How is having the camera shift JUST after a spectral shift thru a grate so you end up morphing back through that gate again better?

The camera design in Defiance is clearly flawed and claiming that the levels are not designed for a more user friendly and user interactive camera to allow the player to see what they want and where they want when they want is a copout. Rather than saying the camera is designed for these types of levels (I ask how a room is "designed" for this kind of camera. How is a room in Vorador's mansion different than any other room in any other game?) you should realise that the levels are fine, it's the camera that's forced to show them off from "cinematic" angles and therefore shows inferior level deisign.

I don't expect anyone to reply to any specific issues I've raised here but this is how I feel about the game and I'm pleased that others are seeing the camera systems flaws as well. The camera in a game should show two things: One, what the player needs to see, and Two, what the character they're playing as can see. LoK: Defiance fails on both those points.

The camera in RE is mainly locked off, meaning it doesn't move and is therefore worse than Defiance's camera. The camera in ICO was beyond frustrating but at least it had a wide-angle lens on it.

Bottom line is that the camera in SR1 was fantastic, the camera system employed in Defiance is more a hindrence than helpful. Everything else is opinion.

[blincoln]

You and I have had this discussion already =P.

Please explain how a camera like this or a locked off camera like in RE is better than SR1's camera?

Because it makes both games feel more like interactive films.

I mean, how is looking at your character looking into a room, where you can't see into the room, yet your character can, and is getting attacked by "something" you can't see because of the camera position?

The same thing happens when an enemy gets behind a follow-cam, or your character gets between the camera and an enemy when a follow-cam is used.

I never had this problem in Defiance or Devil May Cry, so maybe you are doing something wrong. I couldn't play through RE because I hated the controls, but in the time I was playing it, the problem you describe didn't exist either. There were times I couldn't see the enemy I was fighting in RE for a *very* short period, but I knew exactly where it was because I had seen it coming from one of the other angles a minute before.

Also, how is running towards the camera, again where the character can see where he's going, only you who are controlling the camera can't, and therefore run right into a wall better?

You are fighting the camera instead of following the hints it's giving you. If it doesn't continue to move backwards, then obviously you can't go any further in the direction it was moving previously.

I'm surprised you didn't pick this up by the time you finished DMC, let alone Defiance.

And running underneath the camera, only to have it spin around and around as you try to find the correct way to push the character out of this camera perspective loop better?

Again, you are fighting the camera instead of using it to your advantage.

How is having the camera shift JUST after a spectral shift thru a grate so you end up morphing back through that gate again better?

Fighting the camera once again. By the second or third time this happened, you should understand its behaviour well enough to see what was happening.

The camera design in Defiance is clearly flawed

I disagree. You may think it's flawed, but that is not an objective fact, it is an opinion.

and claiming that the levels are not designed for a more user friendly and user interactive camera to allow the player to see what they want and where they want when they want is a copout.

Actually, it's not. Have you tried using my codes to see for yourself? You *cannot* play through the game using the follow-cam. There are too many areas like the ones in the Stronghold where there are Archers or other enemies with projectile weapons on elevated platforms that you **cannot see** using a follow-cam perspective.

Rather than saying the camera is designed for these types of levels (I ask how a room is "designed" for this kind of camera. How is a room in Vorador's mansion different than any other room in any other game?) you should realise that the levels are fine, it's the camera that's forced to show them off from "cinematic" angles and therefore shows inferior level deisign.

I beg your pardon, but this is completely wrong.

The levels were designed with the cinematic cam in mind. This means that corridors can be thinner, ceilings can be lower, corners can be sharper, space in general can be more confined, and enemies can be located in places that cannot be seen without a cinematic cam.

You give the area with one of the most standard hallway designs - Vorador's Mansion - as an example. While it's true that the connecting hallways work fine with the follow-cam, areas like the puzzle rooms and the one with the three fountains do not.

The camera in a game should show two things: One, what the player needs to see, and Two, what the character they're playing as can see. LoK: Defiance fails on both those points.

The cameras in all of the games I mentioned show the players what they need to see. Any cam is going to have some drawbacks. The first-person view in Metroid Prime makes platform jumping a bit harder than a third-person view. The follow-cam in SR means you end up looking at your character's backside for the entire game, missing out on some of the excellent level design and being open to being surrounded by enemies that are hard to fight off because you can't see them all.

**Your personal opinion** is that a game cam should show the player what their character is seeing at all times, and I completely disagree. There are uncountable cinematic techniques and tricks that cannot be accomplished when the viewer always sees from the perspective of the characters.

The camera in RE is mainly locked off, meaning it doesn't move and is therefore worse than Defiance's camera. The camera in ICO was beyond frustrating but at least it had a wide-angle lens on it.

Plenty of people liked both of those games. You are just stuck in a world where a follow-cam is the only acceptable way of viewing a game.

Bottom line is that the camera in SR1 was fantastic, the camera system employed in Defiance is more a hindrence than helpful. Everything else is opinion.

I'm sorry, but that is your personal opinion, and not in any way an objective point of view. Almost everyone likes DMC, except people who can't get into the cinematic cam in that game, and it's the same for Ico, RE, and Defiance.

SR1 had a great cam for its time, just like BO1 had a decent POV for its time. Now game developers have vastly superior camera techniques at their disposal that will elevate gaming to something like the interactive movies that people thought they could make a decade ago using FMVs and failed.

[exo]

If the camera WASN'T A Hinderance I wouldn't be here arguing that it was would I?

The camera allows for Blindspots that are annoying considering if you had a camera that had a behind the view of your character you would've seen things you missed right away isntead of getting the limited view given by the camera.

let's run through some examples.

Because of the camera when you first get raz there was this certain ledge you had to jump to before the entire room filled up with this sea of lost souls type crap. I had to re-do this one section at least 5x because apparently on the very side of the ledge you couldn't grab on, I had to assume this because the camera angle didn't exactly show me why I couldn't grab on.

Precision jumps are a pain in the ass when the camera starts slightly moving along with you and swiveling over FORCING you to change the direction keys you are using and adjusting accordingly, an annoyance that can usually end up sending you to the last checkpoint.

Things such as the fire arrow posts in the halls can easily be hidden from view because the camera angle just doesn't show where the posts are so you have to sit there waiting for an arrow to hit you so you can figure out where the damned things are shooting you from.

Running up a winding stairway the camera changes multiple times. First you're running forwards then all of a sudden it's not forwards anymore it's your backwards key switched to being a forward for your character due to the camera angle.

Hell, I had to position myself 3 different ways until I could finally make the stupid tk cursor to target the switch in the highest row in the 2 pillars room.

If it wasn't for this checkpoint, unlimited lives system I would've been game over'd a long time ago.

Tedious trial and error is what I'm getting from this. eg. start an obstacle, okay that's where the camera changes, damn I died, start over again remembering when the camera changes take place as well as the obstacles.

And the combat moves, here's one moves you do on the ground. Now here's the SAME move but in the air! How creative!

Now, I appreciate the work that went into this game, I give it an 80% in effort, but I just can't recommend to anyone who is used to very well done cameras like Prince of Persia or Max Payne 2.

[Lozza Mate]

Originally posted by Omega
I agree with Ben. The camera was great, as most of us liked it.

I'm really tiring of these 'I hate the Camerea' threads.

Crystal Dynamics have done it for a reason, and it works perfectly fine.

If you've got a problem with it, go to your eye-doctor for problems with depth-percetion

depth perception does not exist on a game. It's a 2D plane pretending to be 3D.

[exo]

Originally posted by Lozza Mate
depth perception does not exist on a game. It's a 2D plane pretending to be 3D.

LOL, way to swipe the high horse from underneath the wind bag.

:up:

[Tesla]

Originally posted by Lozza Mate
depth perception does not exist on a game. It's a 2D plane pretending to be 3D.

depth perception is there. modern games using 3d engines DEFINITELY have it.

Main Entry: depth perception
Function: noun
Date: circa 1911
: the ability to judge the distance of objects and the spatial relationship of objects at different distances

[exo]

It's partially true, but only the spatial part.

because with real depth perception, all the objects you see are not clear, just the one you're focusing on,

Which is I believe how it works?

And last I checked my screen doesn't convey that.

[Lozza Mate]

natural, human depth perception is made possible by the fact we are using two eyes. The eyes must aim at a specific object and subsequently everything closer and behind said object is viewed as a double image. The brain automatically judges distance by these double visions. When we look at the television everything is presented in on a flat screen there is no difference in distance and everything is in focus.

Games are only presenting a pseudo 3D plane. The only true 3D object is one we can see from one angle and feel from the other. When you watch the camera 'rotate' around a model for example, there is no physical depth to the object. it is only a combination of 2d images of the model from different vantage points.

Depth perception on screen is our imagination/habitual thinking only.

[blincoln]

The camera allows for Blindspots that are annoying considering if you had a camera that had a behind the view of your character you would've seen things you missed right away isntead of getting the limited view given by the camera.

As I said before, there are downsides to every camera style.

A follow-cam has blind-spots too - mostly regarding things that are above or below the player.

The combat in Defiance is very frustrating using a follow-cam, because when you jump, you either can't see the enemies on the ground, or can't see your character in the air.

[exo]

No worries.

It seems CD hasn't learned any new tricks, so far I've relived everything I did in SR1 and SR2 by and some half-baked SR gameplay for Kain as well.

My god you'd think besides making a better fighting system they'd come up with interesting gameplay besides boring tedious puzzles that they've been chugging out for the past 3 games.

The game just doesn't do it for me anymore and the plot tidbits are too far inbetween the all too typical puzzles that I've seen time and time again. I've been following the series for a long time and I have to say, enough is enough.

Farewell Kain, you were my favourite vampire. Then they went and killed you with boring puzzle x 1000 that I've already seen.

[Omega]

Hey, lets not bash Crystal Dynamics on matter of taste and opinion. They've done a bang up job on Defiance - it really is a great game!

depth perception does not exist on a game. It's a 2D plane pretending to be 3D.

So, what? When jump from platform to platform there's no depth involved?

[fneh]

Originally posted by Apocrypha Roxy
Everyone has pretty much griped about the camera. Although considering how it is layed out, the game would not be playable in a normal mode of camera - you wouldn't see walls or hallways as normal. The Spirit forge with the Earth Reaver, you'd never see the platforms to jump onto if the camera didn't shift.

Once you play a few times, you become adjusted. Plus, it looks better from the side when you beat the crap out of Sarafan, rather than from the back.

do you not remmber in SR1 when raziel approached the abyss? the CAMERA PULLS AWAY!

There is no excuse for this new camera. If they kept the original one camera angles would change appropriately at areas like this as they always did. The gameshark code blinc has done doesn't allow for this. It's merely the basic follow me cam. It could have been improved to be the perfect camera for the game instead of the one they did use.

[fneh]

I agree, the puzzles were poor. I can't really call them puzzles. The only time I had a challenge was when I had to FIND items and that was because my sense of direction is totally ruined by the camera..

[fneh]

Originally posted by blincoln
As I said before, there are downsides to every camera style.

A follow-cam has blind-spots too - mostly regarding things that are above or below the player.

The combat in Defiance is very frustrating using a follow-cam, because when you jump, you either can't see the enemies on the ground, or can't see your character in the air.

they could EASILLY have added an extra axis to the right analog stick to rotate the camera. This way you could look up (to a certain extent. Make it lock upon reaching the floor) by pushing the stick down and look below by pushing up. Basically improve the sr2 camera by adding the good things about the BO2 camera. Problem solved for only a fraction of the price they took to develop a new camera.

They could even use the SR2 combat camera with a little tweaking (zoming out for bigger enemies). That would be the best camera ever.


What I don't understnad is the lack of weapons. There aren't THAT many moves you can perform. surely they could double the moves by adding unarmed combat too. They could make the reaver feed on you if you used it too much (ala SR2) so thisd way the reaver could actualy do SOMe damage. In SR2 raziel could PUNCH harder then the reaver hits in defiance.

[W. Raider]

I'll add to this with two things in particular that I noticed along the way and started to get on my nerves:

01) Moving the camera to use TK on a specific spot while aiming it with another control. Why on Earth I have to aim the camera to aim the TK blast is beyond me. The player should never have to aim a camera to do a task. The rubberband like snapping back of the camera to it's original posistion was a pain as well asa you have to hold the camera in position while you blast away.

02) While fighting many many times the combat would end up right in front of some "cinematically" positioned camera (ie..the camera on the floor looking up at the room because that or a 'security cam' position are the only two placement options that can show the whole room in a lock-off) so you couldn't see the fight anymore. Your options at that point? Mash buttons madly hoping that you're winning, random TK blasts, or trying to lure the baddie away from the camera. So not only are you fighting aa baddie, you're fighting the camera as well.