My views on the future of Tomb Raider

[jack_Raider]

Edited January 19th, 2004

I really thought that maybe EIDOS should have let CORE finished the plan trilogy before giving the series to crystal dynamics. I guess EIDOS sees no justice for tomb raider with CORE developing it. I haven't been impressed with Core Design over the past few years or Adrian Smith. Remember how he always said that it would be out of character if Lara could punch/kick and for tomb raider to have more playable characters? Or after tomb raider III when Adrian said the reason for not having a lot of tombs was to add more variety, but then promised us that future tomb raider games will have more tomb exploring (which tomb raider 4 did).

I think what made TR: Angel of Darkness fail was because Core promised a new tomb raider game that wasn't just another rehash. The thing is, this is as worse as it gets and even more so a rehash than past tomb raider games. And even worse Core borrows elements from other games and throws it in the game. I must say that I enjoyed AOD the first time around, but after replaying AOD its not original and I'd much rather play one of the older tomb raider games.

OK let me give a quick run down of my thoughts of Angel of Darkness. Let me start out by saying this game offers a lot if you think about it. Core has brought every idea it seems and have tried everything to make this game different. While the gameplay remains the same from pervious tomb raider games, you soon forget about the familiar game play once you see the environments. The environments are so unfamiliar from past tomb raider games and are wonderfully done with fantastic use of textures and objects. The worlds in AOD are very detailed. Many of the worlds aren't quite as big as they were in older tomb raider games, but AOD provides at least a few big worlds/rooms.

I don't know about you, but I enjoyed Angel of Darkness. But one of the worst issue in the game is not the bugs or glitches, but the fact that the player knows that this is an unfinished game. Parisian Geudo was my favorite level as you can tell Core used inspiration from Shenmue. But the whole character interaction was no big deal in Angel of Darkness. How come when your in the sewers below Parisian Geudo you hear people chatting and cars roaming, but when you exit the sewer, there are no signs of people or cars. I would have liked to see people roaming around to have that "your not alone" feeling.

Also, I would have liked to go in more buildings/stores in Parisian Geudo to talk to more people and get more information. The story in AOD is very good, the concept seems really well written, but not well put together. If there was more character interaction, we could learn more about the story in the game and also know more about Karel. I'd also like to see more use of trading and money like in Shenmue. Instead of having money laying around on the streets, Lara would have to look in a trash can for example and find a comic book to sell. And if you ran out of money and can't find any more items, then a trip to the church would be a good idea. What I mean by that is remember the church section in AOD (I forget the name) where you see people fighting in an arena? Well, I was hoping that Lara would be able to get in that arena and be able to fight. For example, if she won the fight she would get money and could get more money by fighting again, and again, and so on. It would have also been cool if there was a gun shop for buying/selling weapons.

I'm not really bashing angel of darkness, but those suggestions I gave would have made a big difference to the game. Core kept saying how different this tomb raider would be, but they just made themselves look like idiots. The game is still indeed tomb raider (which is not a bad thing). I thought AOD would be one hell of an adventure game with a lot of character interaction. Yes, there is very few of that, but not much.

The combat is very weak in AOD. All you can do is run around in shoot during combat. Lara can't jump while shooting or anything. Core should have used the combat system in past tomb raider since you could do more than run around and shoot. Also, Lara has too many moves in AOD that are the same or useless. Lara can walk and do stealth which are both the same thing. Guards won't hear you whether you walk or use the stealth feature. While walking, you can hold a gun in hand, but can't snap necks. Stealth you can snap necks, but can't equip a weapon. But both the walk and stealth feature prevent Lara from falling off a ledge. Core added a stealth feature and should have done more with it. I think Core should have scrapped the walk feature in AOD and stuck with stealth. But with stealth on, Lara should have been able to equip a gun and even be able to move against a wall with a gun in hand. And instead of holding down the walk button and pressing jump to perform a small leap, Lara should have been able to do that in stealth mode. And then there is another useless move which is crawling. I saw myself using the commando crawl more often than normal crawl.

As for the future of tomb raider, I'd really hope Crystal Dynamics puts the series back on top. I liked the direction Core was going with tomb raider. I like that darker feel and that darker image of Lara, but don't really want the next one to be dark. Some will say Tomb Raider II is the best for the action or tomb raider III with the hude outdoors, but nothing beats the original. Tomb Raider needs a new direction and I don't mean a "darker" direction. Tomb Raider doesn't have to be darker and have a moody lara to be different from other new tomb raiders. It just needs to go back to what made the first tomb raider game so wonderful which all the sequels have lacked. I love tomb raider and its my favorite game series, but the past tomb raider titles have been pretty stale. Nothing new happened in them except for small improvements to the engine and a few new features here and there.

I would rather Crystal Dynamics finish the AOD story in one Full game and then create a whole new adventure. I'd personally like Crystal to ditch the AOD storyline and go ahead and do new adventure, but most fans would like to see the AOD storyline continue. I'm cool with that too since the AOD story was interesting.Believe it or not, Kurtis Trent has become a very well-liked character for the tomb raider games and I'm sure us fans would like to see what happened to him at the end of AOD.

I liked to see some new weapons and gadgets, as long as its not over done. But in the tomb raider movies, Lara has a great fashion of clothes, weapons, and gadgets, and still manages to explore ancient ruins/tombs. Lara's always had that Indiana Jones in her, why not add a bit of James Bond?

The manga style Lara was getting me a bit worried since I liked Lara's appearance in Angel of Darkness. I would actually perfer Crystal Dynamics to make a 3D Angelina Jolie as Lara Croft just like EA games with Pierce Brosnan. But I think most fans would disagree with that and I understand. Crystal Dynamics should still keep Lara Croft slightly cartoony as she has been in all the tomb raider games. Mario has always stayed the same, zelda actually went from realistic to cartoony, so why should Lara go realistic? The AOD lara is fine with me, but I'd like to see the old Lara come back(the one we saw on the covers of TR's1-5). But I think Crystal should put a bit more muscle in her legs and arms. I'm not saying for Crystal to turn Lara into a body builder, but you'd think all that jumping/pulling would I least show some muscle on Lara.

Tomb Raider needs to stick with action adventure/puzzle solving, less conversation with people. Lara doesn't have time to go around cities and chat with people, it clearly shows in the movies and games. Shes usually in a hurry and wants to get things done. I would like Crystal to go back to the roots of the original tomb raider and look at what made tomb raider a hit. I'd like the punching/kicking and stealth feature to return. But this time I would like to see a more fluid punching/kicking feature and more use of stealth. I hope Crystal will make smarter A.I since tomb raider has been lacking it from day one. More tombs is probably what every one wants including me, but some point in the game I'd like Lara to go in a city and modern setting like in cradle of life when Lara sneaks into the high-tech office building.

So what's going on with the tomb raider level editor community? There have been no updates or any release of a new TR level editor. Most TR level editors want the release of the tomb raider source-code. I totally agree and don't want to see what I like to call "classic" tomb raider die. The tomb raider 4 engine is quite outdated, but who cares. Look how far the level editing community has gone with it today. All those programs and tools show how much we love tomb raider and how much we want to keep it alive. Core has no use for the AOD editor anymore and neither do we. I don't want to make levels with an unfinished and not quite so good engine. I enjoyed AOD, but the old tomb raider gameplay was so much better and easier than AOD.

Will Angelina Jolie return for tomb raider 3? I certainly hope so and Angelina says it is a possibility that she will do the next one. In a Cradle of Life interview with Angelina Jolie, she explained how she would like to play the darker Lara featured in angel of darkness. I totally agree with her, but the darker Lara in AOD got pretty annoying sometimes, but maybe darker storyline for the next tomb raider movie and not a dark Lara.

So whats next for Core Design? It's pretty sad actually, I don't think Core Design is that good of a game company. Sorry, but there games haven't been impressive over the years besides the tomb raider games. And People like Adrian Smith piss me off since he always contradicts himself. But Adrian & Jeremey Smith are starting a new game company called "Circle Studio." Its said they are working on prototype games for xbox/PS2 and for future consoles. My guess is that Adrian and Jeremey are working on a new Fighting Force or Project Eden game. They don't own the rights to tomb raider or Lara Croft anymore, but no one said anything about Kurtis. They might even be working on a non tomb raider/lara croft game starring Kurtis. Early back before AOD was released, they said they were working on seperate adventures for Kurtis so you never know. Hopefully the brothers get their act together now they are a independent game developer. I must thank them for the success of tomb raider, but the real credit goes to Toby Gard. He created Lara Croft and helped develope the original tomb raider(the original being the best in the series). Maybe Crystal can get some tips from toby .

Crystal Dynamics is known for the Legacy of Kain games. As a game developer, they are very talented with level design, gameplay, and story. Which is very good since that's what tomb raider needs. As for what game engine that they will be developing the next tomb raider, who knows exactly. Right now there are only three possible game engines I can think of that Crystal Dynamics would use for TR7; Modified Soul Reaver 2 Engine, LOK: Defiance Engine, or a Modified/Fixed/Completed AOD engine (I highly doubt this). Etheir way, lets just hope they make a tomb raider game that matches up to the original and makes us forget how good the original was.

Jack_Raider

[Eddy Bones]

Gees, what's up with you all writing thesis papers about TR?

I hope they just do what they want with it. It'll be good no matter what they do, IMO. I'm open for any kind of change. I don't care if they keep going with AOD (never finished the game), I don't care if it ties in with the movie, I don't care if they turn it into a manga like thing, I don't care if they put her in a seemingly deserted, foggy town and make her run around fighting zombies and bizzaro creations trying to find her lost daughter.

[Ruz]

just wait and see what happens. might turn out to be great

And fps type engines like unreal engine are kind of unsuitable for 3rdperson games like tombraider.
he he imagine if they turned it in to a FPS shoot em up.
lara has to fight counter terorists.Tnat would be the end.

[jack_Raider]

Originally posted by Ruz


And fps type engines like unreal engine are kind of unsuitable for 3rdperson games like tombraider.
he he imagine if they turned it in to a FPS shoot em up.
lara has to fight counter terorists.Tnat would be the end.

I'm not saying the next tomb raider game should use the unreal engine or quake III engine, but there have been many successful 3rd person games that use those engines.

Alice- Quake III engine

Jedi Knight II: Outcast- Quake III engine

Jeid Knight III: Academy- Quake III Engine

Heavy Metal 2- Quake III engine

Splinter Cell- Unreal Engine

Magic the Gathering: Battlegrounds- Unreal Engine

Rune- Unreal Engine

The Lost- Unreal Engine

Harry Potter Console/PC games- Unreal Engine

and also many more

[Ruz]

oh ok, I stand corrected he he.
Its just I was making mods for a few years and asked if it would be possible to make a 3rd person type game and everyone was saying no way man.
that was a while ago though

[AndrewIII]

Where is "Ax Tomb Raider and start on something original and innovative" ?

To be honest, Tomb Raider is past its prime,and nothing but a fluke now. So why continue something that have been disappointing to the gaming community?

So whats next for Core Design? It's pretty sad actually, I don't think Core Design is that good of a game company.

Well, used to be something good,but apparently they got ran into the ground.

[Ruz]

Or they could try again and improve it.
nothing like looking on the bright side

[AndrewIII]

Crystal Dynamics is known for the Legacy of Kain games. As a game developer, they are very talented with level design, gameplay, and story.

Wrong!! CD fumbled the ball with Blood Omen 2 and have been on the downhill ever since.

[Eddy Bones]

Every company messes up at least once. You can't hold it against them.

[Katie_Fleming]

I would like it if they continued what they had planned. It would be dumb to leave it off where it ended

[dhama]

Remember, Crystal Dynamics have been given a franchise that another company; Core Design, lost. So they'll be using every effort to bring us something fresh.

In with the new and out with the old, I say. If they can't make TR as playable as the original, then they may as well give up now.

[Katie_Fleming]

Originally posted by dhama
Remember, Crystal Dynamics have been given a franchise that another company; Core Design, lost. So they'll be using every effort to bring us something fresh.

In with the new and out with the old, I say. If they can't make TR as playable as the original, then they may as well give up now.

I read something awhile ago about the upcoming Tomb Raider game that Core was supposed to make. They said the first game basically laid out the ground work for the game. TR7 was supposed to be more like "Tomb Raider" with all the underground things in Turkey

[AndrewIII]

Every company messes up at least once. You can't hold it against them.

For a developer that fumbled the ball more than twice,the chances of them messing up is huge.

[Jenna]

Originally posted by AndrewIII
Where is "Ax Tomb Raider and start on something original and innovative" ?

To be honest, Tomb Raider is past its prime,and nothing but a fluke now. So why continue something that have been disappointing to the gaming community?

Eh? Since when has Tomb Raider been a disappointment? Ok AOD may have flopped a bit, but the rest of the series did really well. TR2 is one of the best selling PS games of all time.

[AndrewIII]

Eh? Since when has Tomb Raider been a disappointment?

Since the games went downhill after the original. The only TR really worth playing, is the original.

[sk8er punk]

AndrewIII, your posts seem to have gone downhill from the first one and all you seem to be doing is annoying this gaming community. Why don't you take your own logic into mind and just stop posting now?

[jack_Raider]

Originally posted by AndrewIII
Since the games went downhill after the original. The only TR really worth playing, is the original.

The Tomb Raider series started going downhill when Tomb Raider III was released. Tomb Raider II is one of the number 1 selling game title for PS1.

After Tomb Raider II, mostly hardcore tomb raider fans bought the games. Thats why core kept making tomb raider games based on the same engine because they knew anything with tomb raider slapped on the box would please us.

[knightgames]

Well I guess I'll post my thoughts on the direction of Tomb Raider.
I. like most of you in this forum like,...um .... love the Tomb Raider series.
I've kept up with it by reading articles in the various publications and believe that Core/ Eidos tried to always keep it fresh and exciting by adding SOMETHING new to Lara's repetoire.
In TRII the Venice levels were a departure from the firsts' Archeological type environments. More guns... and human opponants. I loved the Maria Doria levels myself. I also think that it is the most well developed in the series.
In TRIII the kayaking levels were INGENIOUS and I applaud the developers for devising them. Hand over hand mobility as well as wall climbing added to the experience as well.
TRIV went back to the roots of the series by going to Egypt. I liked some of the puzzles and the look of the game.
But my favorite is TRI. It was fresh and original...(in as far as it was 3 dimensional)
The environments just WOW'd everyone. I can think of ANY level and remember something I love about it. If I had to pick anything apart about TRI would be that technology was not advanced enough to really detail the environments like they deserve.
While the original TR was innovative and original in 3D scope.... it was a PRINCE of PERSIA game in 3D.
I mention Prince of Persia because other than the environments... what made me REALLY like ...no LOVE ...the TR series is the sense of puzzle solving and figuring out traps .... of how to get from point A to point B.
I recently finished Prince of Persia the Sands of Time and revived the feelings of when I first loaded the original TRI in 1996.
So..... where do I want TR series to go?..... I want the story line to continue. Its a very good story and one US fans would like to see completed.
(As a fan we sometimes get mysogenistic.....and we have to remember Eidos HAS to make money and THAT bottom line is what will dictate where the series ultimately goes)
In any event, continue the story but in the exploratory vein that Lara started in TRI. Bringing with it the awe of discovering new things to see.
Legacy of Kain series is a well done series done with Vampires. It borrows heavilt from the Tom Raider style of game play. So I'm confident in Crystal Dynamic's abilities to develop Lara into the next gaming experience.

[jack_Raider]

wonderfully said knightgames.

I think what made TR: Angel of Darkness fail with tomb raider fans was because Core promised a new tomb raider game that wasn't just another rehash. The thing is, this is as worse as it gets and even more so a rehash than past tomb raider games. And even worse Core borrows elements from other games and throws it in the game. I must say that I enjoyed AOD the first time around, but after replaying AOD its not original and I'd much rather play one of the older tomb raider games.

I agree with you that the original tomb raider is fresh and original. Some will say Tomb Raider II is the best for the action or tomb raider III with the hude outdoors, but nothing beats the original. Tomb Raider needs a new direction and I don't mean a "darker" direction. Tomb Raider doesn't have to be darker and have a moody lara to be different from other new tomb raiders. It just needs to go back to what made the first tomb raider game so wonderful which all the sequels have lacked.

I would rather Crystal Dynamics finished the AOD story in one Full game and then create a whole new adventure. I'd personally like Crystal to ditch the AOD storyline and go ahead and do new adventure, but most fans would like to see the AOD storyline continue. I'm cool with that too since the AOD was interesting, but hopefully Lara isn't as moody.

Whether Crystal Dynamics continues the AOD storyline or not, heres what I'd like to see:

Everything that made the first tomb raider game so good. Huge environments and the feeling that anything can happen at any time.

That freaky feeling of Lara not being alone in a tomb. Knowing that another tomb raider (thats not on her side) is in the tomb looking for the artifact or trying to kill Lara. Just line with Larsen and Peire in the first tomb raider game.

More action adventure/puzzle solving, less conversation with people. Lara doesn't have time to go around cities and chat with people, it clearly shows in the movies and games. Shes usually in a hurry and wants to get things done.

More Gadgets and less weapons. One thing I love about the first tomb raider is that there were very few weapons. I liked less weapons and more use of her pistols. Maybe Crystal could include different pistol ammo ranging from her normal pistol unlimted ammo to more powerful limited ammo. I also like to see more gadgets. Lara uses alot of gadgets in the tomb raider movies and would be helpful when shes in a tomb.

For Lara's looks, I'd love to see a digital Angelina Jolie Lara, but most tomb raider fans wouldn't want that and a totally understand. So I'm also cool with the current Lara appearance, except maybe bring back the looks of the cg Lara Croft featured in older tomb raider games.

[knightgames]

What I remember feeling as I played TRI the first time was that I was exploring places that had at one time existed. They had a culture of their own and for one reason or another those areas were abandoned. Our heroine was the first...(or close to it except for Pierre DuPont)...to see those ruins in many many years or eons.
If Lara fell in Francis's Folly it was a LONG way down.... and no one would EVER find her. The music, or lack therof ADDED to that atmosphere. The aloneness of her exploration coupled with the need to find the Scion before Ms. Natla and her henchmen really played into a great gaming experience for me.
The other locations gave such a rich experience that I long for again in a Tomb Raider game.
I can't remember the name of the level and I've mentioned it on several of my previous posts... But when Lara enters the water and has to swim down down down between the two HUGE statues to flip the switches and open the gates thus lowering the level of the water to proceed further was not only inventive but also rich in the feeling that I was exploring a past culture. Who built the statues... and why? Why did the people die out? And when the sentinals at the gates burst to life I had the feeling that even tho the culture died.... something remained to protect it's secrets and treasures.
The other games didn't have that same feeling. I enjoyed them... but the original REALLY removed me from my reality and placed me into Lara's reality.
By the time TRtLR came out the games were totally devoid of the ability to suspend reality. They were great in level design but that was really it.
I WANT THAT SAME FEELING AGAIN. THAT'S THE MAGIC OF TOMB RAIDER I SEEK.

[AndrewIII]

I think at the end of the day, TR needs a silent burial.

[jso2897]

Yes, Andrew. We know. You've said so before. Many, many, many times. And while you're certainly welcome to do so, if it amuses you, I have to admit that it strikes me as a tad peculiar. It's none of my business, I suppose, but I have trouble understanding why someone would devote so much time to participating in a forum that is exclusively dedicated to something they loathe outright. You're too persistant and obsessive to be classified as a common troll, but if your purpose here is anything other than annoying people, it's hard to see what it is. And while I concede that it's none of my business, I would respectfully point out to you, if I may, that there are better ways of garnering attention. But something I learned a long time ago is that the Net is a big place - and every day I meet people there who are motivated by forces I will never understand. Peace be with you, and have a happy New Year. And do try, Andrew, to think about something you LIKE, for a change.

[Aquarius]

Your post was perfect jack_raider! You've put everything into words perfectly. I never noticed before that in the Parisian Ghetto sewers you could hear cars and people. But up on the surface, don't forget there's a serial killer on the loose. A lot of people wouldn't be on the streets...except for your hookers. But I agree, they should have made the two match up.

In the poll, I voted that CD should continue Core's trilogy plan. It was a very good plan to begin with, and I think CD might be able to improve and implement it better. (hopefully )

Originally posted by AndrewIII
Where is "Ax Tomb Raider and start on something original and innovative" ?

To be honest, Tomb Raider is past its prime,and nothing but a fluke now. So why continue something that have been disappointing to the gaming community?

Well, used to be something good,but apparently they got ran into the ground.

I think I said something to you once even on the TRF.com forums. If you have nothing positive to say about the series, why are you even here? You know you're going to make people mad...

[Invincible]

Hey,I'm still reading the very first post,so shooosh!

*After FINILLY finishing that d*mn roman*
I'll so have to dissagree with some things.
I'm NOT gonna mention them coz it's gonna pi$$ me off even more! :P