Story Hole.......? *Spoiler*

[Laughing Storm]

Ok, I don't know if anyone brought this up and if its been discussed, then I apologize for a rehash. I have a thought and it involves a plot hole. Here goes:

In BO2, if you think about it, Raziel and Co. should be already made or in the game. My reasoning is this: Raziel and Co. were killed and then turned into vamps shorly after the Janos incident, in which Raziel tears his heart out. Well, in BO2 when you first see Janos, Kain mentions something to the affect of "But you should be dead, your heart ripped out" That would mean Raziel already killed Janos in the name of the Sarafan. But where are they? Not mentioned or no appearences in the game by any of them. Also, Raziel is his first lieutenant, yet Magnus is his greatest General in his army. The fact that he had an army and a General suggests he had lieutenants as well. Yet no Raziel. The thought is that Raziel and Co. are made after the events in BO2, roughly 100 years later, but part of the story in BO2 goes against that thought. Also, in the end there is no longer a driving force in the Sarafan, but in SR2 when you go back in time there seems to be someone directing them. Another factor is when you go back in time and see the human Raziel kill Janos, Janos looks more healthy and youthful. When you encounter him in BO2, he seems aged and more evolved. So it can't be that Janos escaped the Sarafan gate and had his heart re-torn out later on. The time machine can't explain it either really. If Kain goes back in time and creates Raziel and Co., it still wouldn't fit as they weren't in BO2 and Kain looks 'evolved' when he has them as his lieutenants, and he doesn't look thus in BO2. Was Raziel already cast in the abyss? Doubtful since Kain ruled all of Nosgoth in the intro to SR1. I can name other tid-bits that don't tie in right, but I will later if needed.

Has anyone else thought of this? Or have any thoughts?

[KainSyndrome101]

It states in the SR2 timeline that Kain raised the six lieutenants roughly 100 years after the events of BO2, and then Raziel is thrown into the Abyss 1,000 years later. Janos looks older because he was in the device for a long time, sapping his energy. He was weak after he got out, which might explain his older look. When you go back in time, 500 years before Blood Omen, the leader of the Sarafan is Malek, and the sponsors of the order are the Circle of Nine. After the Sarafan brethren get killed by Raziel, the order ceases. But it is soon brought up again after the Sarafan Lord breaks through the Demon Realm.

As far as I'm concerned, I don't see any holes.

[Laughing Storm]

Agreed on the Janos point to a degree, but even still......he restored a lot of youth in that case. Still doesn't clear up the hole. Janos had his heart ripped out, by the Sarafan as Kain and Janos state in BO2. Sounds a lot like what Raziel does to him. That fact alone gives merit to my suggestion to the hole.

[Umah Bloodomen]

Kain states his immediate intentions (hinting at the ressurection of the Sarafan bretheren at the end of chapter 11)

The war was over, and yet there was another battle to be fought. The cruel masters of Nosgoth, the Sarafan - now leaderless - still had to be put down.
There were cities to be rebuilt, and order to be restored. And a new rule, my rule would then begin.
To the victor go the spoils. At last, Nosgoth would be mine.

You need to remember that Janos died at the hands of the Sarafan Raziel at least 1000 years prior to the events in BO2. (I'll get the exact time confirmed for you after I am finished posting). The Sarafan bretheren were long dead at the time of BO2. Raziel hadn't been conceived yet as a liutenant. Magus was Kain's greatest general during the 200 years following the events of BO1. Kain fell in battle and slept for 200 more years. Giving Magus the chance to be captured during that time.

There is no one directing the Hylden at this point. I am not clear on where you gained that opinion from. Kain mentions the "puppetmasters" which could mean the Hylden themselves or perhaps Hash'ak'gik. (Unclear at this point).

Janos' appearance in BO2 suggests that vampires do indeed evolve over time. The theories on the SR forum indicate that Janos was resurrected sometime immediately following the events of SR2. (I am sure SR3 will clarify this for us). You seem to be contradicting your statements a bit. The time you see Janos in SR2 (when you dispose of him) is way before the time you see him in BO2. There was no escaping the Hylden gate, although it still isnt clear where he went.

The order of the games goes as this.

The ending events of SR2 (Janos' death)

BO1 (Kain being born and going through his quest)
The beginning of SR2 (Raziel emerging from the chronoplast)

(Keep in mind William was dead and I am sure Kain was off creating what would be his early BO2 empire).

BO2 (400 years after BO1)

SR1 (I believe within 1000 years of BO2)

The future events of SR2 (Exact future unknown at this point)

There are certian things we havent seen (notice we didn't see BO2 Kain in SR2 creating his empire) I am sure all of this will come together in SR3 and BO3 for that matter.

Blah...someone correct me if I am wrong...I'm still looking through the timeline threads...LOL

EDIT I need to learn to type faster eh?

EDIT 2 Corrected my "zero" error.

[Laughing Storm]

No, you misread my post.....or I didn't clarify well. My whole point was that Raziel should already have been made if Janos had his heart already ripped out by the human Raziel. I am well aware of the timeline and such. Also, I never said someone was driving the Hylden, just the Sarafan. If you are agreeing that the Janos/Raizel occurance already happened by BO2, then how is it possible that Raziel and Co. are not present. They were humans and did not live long thanks to SR Raziel, so how could Kain make them into Vampires centuries after they were long dead? From decaded bones? Also remember that it is clearly stated that Raziel is the first of Kain's lieutenants.

Edit:Magnus is captured before Kain loses the war. Remember Magnus says he tries to kill the Sarafan Lord the day before, but was defeated and had his mind robbed from him and sent to the EP.

Janos has wings, so it's not impossible for one to think that he flew away before going through.....but I don't think he did that. The Hylden nearly escaped, so it plausible to think Janos did as well. But I don't know, we need another game to tell us more :lol

[Umah Bloodomen]

After the day I've had, I probably misinterpreted something. Don't mind me.

Just as we didn't see the antics of BO2 Kain in the beginning of SR2, we did not see the SR Raziel appear in BO2.

Raziel and company are not present in BO2 because there vampyric selves have yet to be created. (Following the events of BO2). Soul Reaving Raz had the ability to travel through time through the Chronplast. His bretheren did not because they never became little Soul Reavers. LoL.

As far as BO2 is concerend, the Sarafan Bretheren are long dead and entombed. Yet Kain implies of their rebirth following this time.

You are correct that Raziel is the first. In order they go like this:

Raziel, Turel, Dumah, Rahab, Zephon and Melchiah. (If I am remembering correctly).

Kain is an alchemic vampire. One created through Necromancy not through the bite as Vorador or Janos would sire. Somehow after BO2 he discovered a way to raise vampires of his own. (Remember in his conversations to Vorador he said that siring was something he himself could never do). Kain's method for siring was supernatural. He breathed a portion of his own soul into the remains of the Sarafan. The first one received the most of Kain's soul (hence why Raziel didn't become disfigured as he evolved). As Kain went down the line, the evolution was more extreme and devloved. (Hence their horrid appearances).

[Laughing Storm]

Damn good point! :lol Though, it still seems wierd that he can do it to dust......if you think about it, their bones would be dust by the time he made them then.

When I said we don't see Raziel and Co., I meant before Raziel is SR Raz, but instead the Vamp Raz. and Vamp Co. But your point above is a good one if he can in fact make a vamp from dust. I need to replay the first game I am thinking......though he didn't say the siring part in BO1, cause I remember hearing it recently.

Raziel was never given the chance to evolve and become disfigured like his Sarafan brothers.....as he was cast in to the abyss while they all looked like human vamps.

[blincoln]

What Umah said =).

If Nosgoth has magic that allows the souls of long-dead humans to be restored to their corpses, I don't have trouble believing that it could make them look nice again.

[Umah Bloodomen]

Depending on where Kain received the knowledge of resurrecting the Sarafan, I would assume that the spell he used enabled the regeneration of the bodies.

There is another thread floating around here that suggests the Sarafan bretheren were mummified much like the ancient Egyptians. I believe this to be true because they are such revered individuals (similar to a pharoh would be revered).
I am willing to bet that William the just was also mummified in his own sarcophagus.

Now don't get me wrong, mummies aren't perfect or totally intact, they still have some decomposition affects. Although their overall body may still remain in one piece and some of the flesh, hair and nails could be apparent. If this was the case, the Sarafan brethren merely reversed the effects of their mortal death, thus restoring them to their human/vampirish appearances.

Other than that, I agree with Blinc...there is definatly magic afoot.

[Laughing Storm]

A thought just occured to me, Raziel served Kain 1000 years before being thrown into the Abyss. So SR taking place 100 years after BO2 wouldn't work out. Kain himself would only be 500. Also remember, 100 years isn't enough time for Kain to evolve to the way he looks in SR and for him to conquer all of Nosgoth and for it to turn out the way it looks in SR.

Note, in the intro to SR, Raziel says he served Kain for a millennium(1000 years).

Edit: Mummies would do it then.....:lol
Hopefully Edios will clear things up a lot in the next installments of each.

[Umah Bloodomen]

Forgot a zero on that. I will edit it appropriately. I am glad one of us caught it.

I believe that the Sarafan brethren were raised immediately after BO2 as I've stated. We just haven't seen what occured between the events post BO2 and pre SR1 FMV.

I am curious as to the brethren's rise to power, Kain's evolutionary changes (as well as the brethren's although they didn't appear too evolved in SR1's FMV). What exactly did happen to the Razielim Clan? I am sure you see where else I am headed with this.

[Laughing Storm]

Indeed, Raziel was in the abyss for 'eternity' as he puts it, so I don't know what could have happened inbetween then and his 'awakening'. Likely his clan was wiped out by his brethren and Kain. Though it seems to me that Kain fell into a disregard for his remaining 'lieutenants' after Raziel was thrown into the Abyss. Kain didn't evolve at all and they did, and not for the better it seemed. They seemed to evolve more into monsters then into a more superior vampire, Kain seems as though he just come's closer to returning vamps to their godhood, though he seems to be the only one down that road of the vamps you run into. We shall see what Edios has in store.

For now, I need sleep since its 5am...........Nice meeting you all and discussing the series with you all, I look forward to doing more

[Umah Bloodomen]

The pleasure was all mine. I am sure you'll come across me lurking here again tomorrow.

I'll leave you with an interesting topic.


**Impersonates Mike Myers' character, Linda Richman, from the SNL Coffee Talk skits***

Raziel is hurled into the abyss and dies. Meanwhile his clan simply vanishes or dies off simultaneously. Discuss.

[keepittrue]

Mummified, c'mon this is game, how about they still look neat because its a game.

I personnally dont think Kain raised Raziel directly after BO2, although I could be wrong. As a matter of fact it would make sense that he did raise Raziel after BO2 because the SR2 site states Raziel is nearly as old as Kain. I dont think the others were raised untill hundreds of years later. Maybe each liutenant is 100yrs apart.

As for Raziels clan I dont think (and I can almost be 100% certain) that Kain killed them off. They more likely would have something to do with the Ancients or Hylden. I am leaning more towards the Hylden.

[KainSyndrome101]

I'm gonna' say it one more time: The Sarafan Brethren were resurrected by Kain roughly a century later. That's what it says in the SR2 timeline in the extras.

Why would he wait such a long time to raise them? Perhaps he needed a little help with destroying the Sarafan after BO2. So after about 100 years, he raises the lieutenants, and they destroy the Sarafan for good.

[Laughing Storm]

We know the timeline and what the sites say, but based on the information the stories in the games give us it doesn't seem entirely right. That is what we are disscussing Kain.

If the SR2 site states that Raziel is almost as old as Kain, then he had to have been made before BO2, and not 100 years after. 500+ years isn't really an 'almost as old' difference to me.

I am gonna go with the mummy thing for now, only way to explain them being made after BO2.

To your final thoughts Umah. Only thing I can think of right off that bat from your statements, is Kain planned ahead and had them taken care of as he was carring out Raz's sentance or they simply went into hiding or Mobeuis did something to them. It's quite possible that they never even existed, and Raziel was just confused into thinking he had his own clan vamps(the least likely, but possible considering Kain's lack of memory in BO2). Maybe he had Kain's problem with siring. Or that his brethren started making clan vamps after he was cast into the abyss. Keep has a point too, though I don't see where they would have thought to aid the Hylden from. Killed off as traitors? I don't think so, as Raziel was never established as a traitor. All in all, I am inclined to think that what ever happened to them, was Kain's doing.....since he seems to be planning a lot of things ahead of time to reach a certain goal.

Discussing all this makes me realize I need to go back in replay SR and BO :lol

[KainSyndrome101]

But it also states in the SR1 manual:

A millennium has passed since Lord Kain set his capital in the ruins of the Pillars of Nosgoth and began his conquest of the world. His first act was to recruit a cadre. Dipping into the underworld, Kain snared six souls and thus birthed his lieutenants, of which I, Raziel was one. We, in turn, prowled the twilight of purgatory building six legions of vampires to pillage Nosgoth.

Kain is about 1,830-2,030 years old. Raziel is about 1,330-1,530 years old. For vampires, that's not much of a difference.

Just because the site states that Raziel is "nearly as old as Kain himself," doesn't mean he has to be right up there in the years with Kain.

[blincoln]

It also says right at the beginning of Blood Omen 2 that the game takes place before Raziel was made.

[Umah Bloodomen]

When I say "immediately" after BO2 I believe that a century would fall into this time frame. Merely for the fact, vampires don't have to rush to get things accomplished because for all we know ithey have an eternity. I am sure a century to an vampire (who is at his prime in life) would feel as if it were passing in a year as opposed to 100.

Secondly, Keep, with all the detail already instilled in these games, mummification would not surpise me. These brethren were revered. They had time to mummify William and give him a nice little sarcophagus, I am positive they had time to mummify, Raziel, Turel, Dumah, Rahab, Zephon and Melchiah. They were heroes - martyrs. Judging from the lack of a "royal entity" around the time they lived, I would assume they fit the position of royality and were revered as such. (And no I am not saying they were royality, the could just be compared to royality).

This game is based on past medieval references and biblical references of the real world. I am sure some of those customs (of death for example) could/would be referenced as well.

I find you to be a bit hypocritical. You tell me this is just a game when I theorize, (basically telling me that the theory was lame and not plausable) but immediately contradict iyour thought of "it is a game" by theorizing on your own.

I play the game, and since coming to the forums I have learned to go deeper into the storyline than I did before. I realize that it is a game, but can enjoy it a lot more with all the theories and notions that I have come across. I am one of many creative individuals (much like yourself) who come here and discuss the storyline for hours on end and try to reach the point of total plot dissection. Am I right about my theories? Probably not, but we don't know who is or isn't "totally" right at this point either now do we?

[KainSyndrome101]

Thanks for the good explanations Umah. Yes, mummification does fit very well into the series.

And blincoln, thanks for catching that little tidbit about BO2.

[Laughing Storm]

First off, people form theories and questions when they see a movie or read a book that has a deep story and plot twists. So why should a game be any different, especially when it plays more like a movie or book anyway.

Where in BO2 does it say that, and what does it say? All I got was it takes place several centuries before the 'events' of SR1.

Kain set his capitial in the Pillars, and when you see the intro of BO2, what is he walking through and what place do you see him discussing the coming war with other vampires? It's the Pillars. If his first act was to make Raziel and Co., then they should have been in the game. True that 500 years wouldn't be a difference when you compare those numbers, but it would seem like one when they first come to be vampires. 550 vs 1 would seem like a lot.

[warpsavant]

L.S., you need to visit the Official BO2 site, or play the game.

FOUR HUNDRED YEARS AFTER THE NOBLEMAN KAIN
WAS CURSED TO WALK THE NIGHT AS A VAMPIRE
AND CENTURIES BEFORE KAIN WOULD RULE THE
WASTELAND OF NOSGOTH WITH HIS LIEUTENANT RAZIEL

HIS PATH OF CONQUEST IS STOPPED BY A NEW ENEMY

THE PILLARS OF NOSGOTH LIE IN RUIN
VAMPIRES ROAM THE LAND ONCE AGAIN
AND THE LEGACY OF KAIN CONTINUES

[Umah Bloodomen]

Did you not get your daily dose of biscuits today, Warp?

[Laughing Storm]

Right, and you need to clearly read peoples statements.

Again, I heard that and disregarded it cause it is not what Blin said. He said before Raziel was MADE. That intro says no such thing. It says before he RULED WITH Raziel, not before he made him.

[Umah Bloodomen]

What Blinc said and I also said comes from the sources of information such as the BO2 site and the manuals, play guides, you name it.

The BO2 Background story From Ardeth's site:

AS GIVEN IN THE GAME MANUAL

The story of Blood Omen 2 takes place two hundred years after Legacy of Kain: Blood Omen, and several centuries before the events of Legacy of Kain: Soul Reaver. The vampire Kain awakens in a strange city with almost no memory of his former self. Another vampire, Umah, has taken him in and revived him to health after a deadly battle that Kain barely remembers. He is weak, and has lost most of his former power. Worse still, his weapon, the Soul Reaver, is missing. Umah begins to fill Kain in on the recent past, and pieces of Kain's shattered memory return.

Also compliment's of Ardeth's site:

AS GIVEN IN THE GAME MANUAL
LORD KAIN AND THE STORY OF NOSGOTH
(as told by Raziel)

Dark Gods
A millennium has passed since Lord Kain set his capital in the ruins of the Pillars of Nosgoth and began his conquest of the world. His first act was to recruit a cadre. Dipping into the underworld, Kain snared six souls and thus birthed his lieutenants of which I, Raziel, was one. We, in turn prowled the twilight of purgatory building six legions of vampires to pillage Nosgoth.

The destruction of the major human Kingdoms was inevitable. Within a hundred years, humanity had been thoroughly domesticated. To be sure, there remained some feral humans scattered across the hinterlands, clinging to their hopeless holy war to rid Nosgoth of 'the vampire scourge'. They were tolerated. They made existence for the fledglings more challenging.

That intro sentence had nothing to do with Raziel being around. It was before his time. His first act following his conquest of the Hylden city was to resurrect the brethren.

Again from Ardeth's site:

Raziel was the first-born of Kain's lieutenants, the second most powerful vampire in Nosgoth during the first thousand years of Kain's empire. He served his master faithfully.

Kains empire started being put together immediately after BO2 (within the first century) He set the base of his empire at the Pillars, resurrected his "children" and thus we come to the opening FMV of SR1. Which occurs at the end of that millenium that is constantly referred to.

Again from Ardeth's site: ESPECIALLY RELEVANT

Roughly a millennium and a half later, Kain's empire stretched across Nosgoth...

Kain ruled a world filled with vampires. He raised six elite Sarafan warriors from their tomb to serve him, leaving their past forgotten. After the human kingdoms had been conquered, these lieutentants created many offspring. The domination of the vampires became complete as the Pillars continued to decay. Kain's throne was at the base of the eternally corrupted Pillar of Balance.

Hope this clears some things up for you and builds on some things from yesterday.