Generic ammo

[Montial]

I dunno how many times this has been brought up, but I was wondering if there had been any news on the generic ammo front.

A while back there was a thread about generic ammunition, its good and bad points. About a day ago I was leafing through the DX2 flash site, and checking out the weapon specs. Those guns that had an ammunition type listed only had 'matter clip'. Other guns, like the pistol, didnt have ammo listed at all.

Does anyone know if it has been implemented?

Ill chuck up a poll to find out what people think of generic ammo too.

[Prohass]

I dont think oni is a good example of the potential of such a system.

[Picasso]

I'm all for it. The ammo system in DX didn't make much sense. If I'm playing a pistol-oriented character, then why am I carrying around a few hundred shotgun shells? I don't know the specifics of the unified ammo system, but what I've heard sounds good to me.

[Foten]

I dont think that ammo system will work so well in a game like DX:IW, but it did work in Oni cuase I didnt use the guns so much but in DX:IW I will use the guns more cuase there will probally not be abel to do a cresent moon kick or something like that and then it wont be so good with that system.

[TehFreak]

it really wasn't that hard to cope with different ammo in different guns
and who wants to run out of ammo for their rifle cos they just fired a couple of rockets?

[F3nyx]

who wants to run out of ammo for their rifle cos they just fired a couple of rockets?

That's what I dislike the most about the new system. I can see the good points of it, but I like being able to use a lot of one kind of ammo - say, the 7.62mm Assault Rifle ammo - and still have plenty of another kind, like the pistol ammo, left over, because usually 7.62mm was much more abundant than 10mm.

Maybe it was a bit masochistic of me, but I savored having to conserve some of my more valuable ammo, especially Sabot and 30.06 rounds, for when I really needed it, and having loads of throw-away ammo for mowing down grunts.

There've been a lot of threads lately about pretty minor stuff, which would probably only be significant to a real fan of the first game. Before people start saying it's so, I doubt anyone thinks universal ammo could ruin the game. However, these things aren't without impact on the game, and are (IMO) worth discussing.

[SK Denton]

Originally posted by TehFreak
it really wasn't that hard to cope with different ammo in different guns
and who wants to run out of ammo for their rifle cos they just fired a couple of rockets?

Most of the things were not "hard to cope with" in Deus Ex. In fact they are what made the game so great, but the Xbox stole Warren's heart away and now we have universal ammo among other simplified garbage.

[TehFreak]

yeah, that was kinda my point
it's going off topic, but the health system is another example of this, with the separate body zones, which they took away cos they decided that going into a subscreen was too difficult or something. i liked going to that screen and targetting where my medkits should go. now all that's gone and we just get a meaningless boost on the health bar.

[Varamyr]

Er, SK Denton, what exactly does the Xbox have to do with generic ammo? Have multiple ammo types suddenly become too complex for Xbox users?

[Lawnboy360]

BTW, the rocket/rifle example is probably false. There won't be only one type of ammunition. The rocket launcher and the boltcaster, as stated on the website, use "matter clips". I expect there will be another type of ammunition for weapons doing "ballistic" damage (website) like the pistol, shotgun, sniper, and rifle.

[Viking]

Er, SK Denton, what exactly does the Xbox have to do with generic ammo? Have multiple ammo types suddenly become too complex for Xbox users?

Well, in DX1, you sometimes had to go to the inventory screen and fiddle around with the ammo, choosing the one you wanted. I think that's what he's talking about. Now, we've got ourselves this "simplified" version. piece of... Anyway, I agree with SK Denton, though he may sound a bit TOO extreme on this.

[sachfigura]

In DX1 you could hot-key the change ammo command. I, also, found it enjoyable to have to conserve the more valuable ammo types. But let's see how it works in DXII. I don't know about you all, but I plan on playing it through again and again to try it without any guns all the way up to blowing all the enemies away.

[Finellach]

Well as much as I liked the complexity of Deus Ex I think that simplification is good, in fact I think it is realistic since the game's story is further in future and I believe that in future there will be just few types of ammo unlike today.

[SK Denton]

Originally posted by Varamyr
Er, SK Denton, what exactly does the Xbox have to do with generic ammo? Have multiple ammo types suddenly become too complex for Xbox users?

Ask Warren Spector. He's the one dumbing the game down - not me.

[Random]

Originally posted by Viking
Well, in DX1, you sometimes had to go to the inventory screen and fiddle around with the ammo, choosing the one you wanted.

No you didn't. The weapons would automatically switch to whatever ammo type it used, and some weapons had a clumsy secondary fire by switching ammo types. It just meant you collected piles and piles of ammunition for weapons that you never used.

How many times in DX1 did you spend a few seconds bashing open a crate only to find it contained useless shotgun shells? A unified system eliminates all the useless extra stuff because any ammo you find will help.

I have a feeling that another reason why this system is being used is because of the non-linear nature of the game. One of the previews said you visit anywhere from 3 to 13 of the Lower Seattle maps depending on the choices you make. Imagine how hard it would be to balance all the different ammo types. They'd have to accommodate all the pistol users, all the shotgun users, all the rocket users, all the prod users, all the SMG users, all the sniper rifle users. That would mean each map would be littered with useless ammo.

Interestingly, that means a unified ammo system is being used because the gameplay is more complicated, not because Xboxers, for some reason, find it hard to let the game automatically switch ammo for them.

[Finellach]

I totally agree, well said. Different ammo was nice but if you are going to have 10 different types of ammo you need a gigantic balancing as Random already mentioned. I too was sometimes annoyed by the stocks of ammo lying around the street, especially for a pistol wich I used very little.

[Sylvester Ink]

Originally posted by Random
No you didn't. The weapons would automatically switch to whatever ammo type it used, and some weapons had a clumsy secondary fire by switching ammo types. It just meant you collected piles and piles of ammunition for weapons that you never used.

How many times in DX1 did you spend a few seconds bashing open a crate only to find it contained useless shotgun shells? A unified system eliminates all the useless extra stuff because any ammo you find will help.

I have a feeling that another reason why this system is being used is because of the non-linear nature of the game. One of the previews said you visit anywhere from 3 to 13 of the Lower Seattle maps depending on the choices you make. Imagine how hard it would be to balance all the different ammo types. They'd have to accommodate all the pistol users, all the shotgun users, all the rocket users, all the prod users, all the SMG users, all the sniper rifle users. That would mean each map would be littered with useless ammo.

Interestingly, that means a unified ammo system is being used because the gameplay is more complicated, not because Xboxers, for some reason, find it hard to let the game automatically switch ammo for them.

Very good point! It means a better rewards system. If you complete a quest, or find a special place, you will get stuff you can use, rather than worthless junk.

And it's more realistic too. Your character carries 10 weapon "battery-packs" in his pocket instead of 20 sets of 10 ammo clips for every single weapon, half of which isn't used.

[SK Denton]

Originally posted by Random
No you didn't. The weapons would automatically switch to whatever ammo type it used, and some weapons had a clumsy secondary fire by switching ammo types. It just meant you collected piles and piles of ammunition for weapons that you never used.

How many times in DX1 did you spend a few seconds bashing open a crate only to find it contained useless shotgun shells? A unified system eliminates all the useless extra stuff because any ammo you find will help.

I have a feeling that another reason why this system is being used is because of the non-linear nature of the game. One of the previews said you visit anywhere from 3 to 13 of the Lower Seattle maps depending on the choices you make. Imagine how hard it would be to balance all the different ammo types. They'd have to accommodate all the pistol users, all the shotgun users, all the rocket users, all the prod users, all the SMG users, all the sniper rifle users. That would mean each map would be littered with useless ammo.

Interestingly, that means a unified ammo system is being used because the gameplay is more complicated, not because Xboxers, for some reason, find it hard to let the game automatically switch ammo for them.

First of all ammo is only useless if you don't need it. Saying that shotgun ammo in general is useless is wrong and uninformed. I am sure all of the people out there who used shotguns didn't think it was useless (like myself).

Not to mention the whole point of having different types of ammo was to give us (the player), more gameplay choices. The fact that you say it is useless shows how you had to make a choice not to use it thus you think it is useless, but at least you had that choice to make, but now since all the ammo is the same there is no choice.

More choices = Good
Less choices (simplification ie, dumbing down) = Bad

With more choices players could tailer their play style more to their liking, but now we have to put up with the simplistic, cookie cutter model for your average fps (as far as choices are concerned).

[Varamyr]

If only I were a troll, I'm sure I would be able to understand how allowing the player to use whichever weapon they want gives them fewer choices.

[Lawnboy360]

First of all ammo is only useless if you don't need it. Saying that shotgun ammo in general is useless is wrong and uninformed. I am sure all of the people out there who used shotguns didn't think it was useless (like myself).

I think you missed Random's point. It did suck to make a complicated jumping puzzle or spending a bunch of multitools or lockpicks to find a whole bunch of rockets, when you're using the assault rifle and sniper, and it only caused the player to reload to save lockpicks/multitools. It would have been very hard to make sure there is just the right amount of ammunition for every weapon, for every possible way through the game.

[Picasso]

The fact that you say it is useless shows how you had to make a choice not to use it thus you think it is useless, but at least you had that choice to make, but now since all the ammo is the same there is no choice.

Suppose I ignore those shotgun shells because I prefer my sniper rifle. Was this a choice? Yes. Did it add to gameplay? Not really. So why bother?

By your logic, Ion Storm should add a few dozen more ammo types, that are all really weak and pointless. Sure, they'll be useless, but at least we'll have the choice to not use them. And that's what matters, isn't it?

And I will ask you again to define "dumbing down".

[leadfoot]

I'm pretty happy with this system- it means your favorite weapon doesn't run out of ammo nearly as quickly. The sniper rifle was great, but sometimes there wasn't a whole lot of 30.06 ammo available, so you could easily run out. Nothing else is nearly as good at long range (rocket launcher is about as subtle as a shotgun).
Maybe I won't need to use 60 weapons- I may only need a few. In that case, all the ammo I find helps me use each weapon more often.
This is a GREAT thing: it means you won't run out of ammo in a firefight nearly as quick.

If you're in a fight with bots, those crossbow rounds are absolutely worthless- you might as well be trying to knife or knock it unconscious.
On the other hand, if all your ammo is one type, you now have a lot more explosive and EMP rounds to deal with the threat.

Example:
Situation with non-unified ammo types
You're in a huge firefight, and you're down to your last clip for the assault rifle. When that's spent, the enemies better have died, because you're in bad shape otherwise.

With the unified ammo types:
Ammo can be freely shared among all of your weapons: if you're in the firefight, you're not limited to just 7.62mm rounds- you can use everything if you have to.

[Sylvester Ink]

Originally posted by Lawnboy360
I think you missed Random's point. It did suck to make a complicated jumping puzzle or spending a bunch of multitools or lockpicks to find a whole bunch of rockets, when you're using the assault rifle and sniper, and it only caused the player to reload to save lockpicks/multitools. It would have been very hard to make sure there is just the right amount of ammunition for every weapon, for every possible way through the game.

Yeah, and anything that involves having to reload, or quickload in a game is bad for gameplay. Saving is really there so that you can come back to your game after doing something important, like sleeping, eating, etc. It's not there to wipe away your mistakes. A good game will allow you to take your mistakes and turn them into advantages.

In DX1, lockpicking for something you didn't need was a mistake, since lockpicks were valuable. But there was no way to fix your mistake. Admittedly it's realistic, but then you would reload the game and know not to pick that lock. That's not realistic. You can't reload in real life, and a simulation game like DXIW should give you a way to turn this to your advantage, like in real life, in order to keep you from having to reload. And that's what it appears to be doing . . .

[Lawnboy360]

Yeah, and anything that involves having to reload, or quickload in a game is bad for gameplay. Saving is really there so that you can come back to your game after doing something important, like sleeping, eating, etc. It's not there to wipe away your mistakes. A good game will allow you to take your mistakes and turn them into advantages.

Agreed; Prince of Persia's way to deal with this is to give the player the control of time. Missed a jumping puzzle? Instead of quickloading, you just rewind a few seconds back. Sounds good to me.

[F3nyx]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
They'd have to accommodate all the pistol users, all the shotgun users, all the rocket users, all the prod users, all the SMG users, all the sniper rifle users. That would mean each map would be littered with useless ammo.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Actually, if they simply didn't change the ammo distribution, players would be forced to use the ammunition available in a given area - like most people did in the first game. I.e., if you're in a facility where all the guards use 7.62mm ammo, use that ammo because you can be fairly certain you won't run out. The game environment doesn't have to provide pistol ammo for you just because you want to use a pistol - you may have to adapt to what the location supplies. Makes sense to me, and I enjoy the challenge.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And I will ask you again to define "dumbing down"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Oversimplification of gameplay and interface for a less sophisticated platform. That's not trolling, just stating fact - it can't be denied that an Xbox is simpler than a PC, and that's not always a bad thing (for instance, I'm completely in love with the new HUD); it just means that Xbox games are usually built with a different interface style in mind than PC games, or a lower-resolution screen or whatever. However, this does present problems for many "multiplatform" games, because often there are restrictions unnecessary for the PC, but necessary for a console - and thank god that they're giving the PC crowd higher-res textures.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm pretty happy with this system- it means your favorite weapon doesn't run out of ammo nearly as quickly.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I don't think it's necessarily better to make firefights easier...

DX's ammo system had problems. It allowed you to carry a ridiculous amount of ammunition - loads of rockets and other explosives, hundreds of shotgun shells, hundreds of rounds of pistol and rifle ammo.

I think there's a good compromise option, though - put a limit on the total amount of ammo people can carry. So, for instance, each ammo type has a certain "bulkiness" per unit - one rocket has 100 units of bulk, while a single bullet has 1 unit, and a shotgun shell has maybe 4 units. Now, say that Alex can carry 600 units of bulk (I'm making up numbers here) - so you could choose to carry 3 rockets and 300 rounds of ammo, or whatever. (I'd kind of like this system to be implemented for inventory in general, but that's another topic)

This way, the player is forced to make intelligent decisions about what kind of ammo they want to carry, rather than simply loading up on matter clips. This is the simplification people are talking about - nullifying the decision, making the choice for the player. I would much rather have to think about the situation and decide rather rockets, or bullets, or some of each would be best for the situation.