A question about Vorador

[Glucolisis]

Hi everybody. I`ve been away for a Looooooooooong time so I don`t know if this has been talked before.

the question is:

when did vorador make Kain`s army??

Chris said that Vorador was weak because of the events in Bo1 and Vorador said in bo2 that he couldn`t make a new army because he is too weak.

So, when was he strong enough to make an army for Kain??

[Umah Bloodomen]

I don't think that had anything to do with Kain's army. It had to do with making more vampires. (Siring).

Here's the dialogue (Compliments of Ardeth's site)

Vorador:
It serves. But time is short. The Sarafan's power grows by the day. Soon our every haven will be destroyed. We are facing extinction once again.

Kain:
They thought once before they had destroyed us, yet you proved them wrong. You created a new race - something I could never do - and from that race, I had my army.
Vordor bends half-imploringly to Kain.


Vorador:
Now we are divided -
Kain also bows slightly, then sharply straightens.

Kain:
- and dying. Then rouse yourself. Make more of our kind.

Vorador:
It takes time and energy to create a vampire. I have not the strength. No, as Umah told you, we must kill the Sarafan Lord. When he is dead, their power will crumble.
You have come far already, Kain, and proven to be our greatest ally. We must plan our attack.

I don't think that Vorador created an army specifically just for Kain. He merely reproduced the vampire species and from that Kain dubbed himself an army.

EDIT Amy said something about Vorador being a primitive human who existed long before the events of BO & SR. I am sure he had plenty of time to sire, rest, and sire some more.

[Glucolisis]

At the end of BO1, Kain was the LAST vampire. In Bo2 we can see a lot of vamps, all of them created by Vorador, a time after the destuction of the pillar(Bo1`s end).

After Vorador`s resurrection he was too weak to create vampires. That was the BIG weaknes we saw in Bo2 (Chris@Crystal confirmed that).

So, when did he gave birth to all those vamps???


My idea is that he did that before his first death.

[Umah Bloodomen]

So how is this?

Vorador wad sired by Janos
Vorador sires his first brood (say within the 200 years of his own sire)
Vorador takes a hiatus from siring (lack of strength) for 200 years.
Vorador creates a new brood
New brood is wiped out (BO1)
Vorador dies (supposedly)
Vorador comes back (how is unknown) creates more vampires (not necessarily right away...when his strength returned)
Vorador takes another hiatus
BO2 Occurs.

He would've had to have done it soon after the events of BO1 for Kain to rise to the power he did. It was a 400 year break from BO1 to BO2 (when Kain wakes up).

In the opening FMV of BO2, Vorador is seen overlooking the map with Kain. I would presume this was before his next sire hiatus seeing thats when he claims he is weak. This would be within the first 200 years post BO1. This would've had to have been the last time he sired seeing the vampire numbers dwindled off in the second half of those 400 years (the 200 year slumber of Kain). Hence why I believe that was another sire hiatus of Vorador.

EDIT I am going to call this bluff of yours as well. 1. If Vorador didn't create vampires when he came back, and Kain couldn't, who did? Vorador is Umah's sire. Obviously there is evidence of Vorador being able to do so.

[Time Streamer]

And Umah, obviously being the youngest of Vorador's brood, is created during the Kain's hibernation as well the few others since Kain doesn't know them.

[Glucolisis]

Thanks for your answer Umah!!
Now I understand

but what is: hiatus?

[Azuriel]

check your dictionary

[Umah Bloodomen]

Main Entry: hi·a·tus
Pronunciation: hI-'A-t&s
Function: noun
Etymology: Latin, from hiare to yawn —more at YAWN
Date: 1563

1 a : a break in or as if in a material object : GAP <the hiatus between the theory and the practice of the party —J. G. Colton>
b : a gap or passage in an anatomical part or organ

2 a : an interruption in time or continuity : BREAK b : the occurrence of two vowel sounds without pause or intervening consonantal sound

Glad to help! It's my pleasure as always.

[warpsavant]

So Vorador only gets busy every 200 yrs or so? I guess that makes sense considering the number of vampires he must've created. I would have to think that he has always sired this way then, even in Nosgoth's early past.

I mean, all the vamps in Sr2 that are dead, pretty much have the same characteristics, leading me to think they could've been sired at the same time. And there looks to be only 2 generations of Vampires in BO2, pre battle of Meridian and Post.

[Umah Bloodomen]

I estimated the every 200 years for the following reasons:

1. It coincides with the timeline

2. I think Vorador doesn't go off overpopulating, so his children can't overpopulate and eventually end up running out of food and die off.

3. It gives Vorador sufficient time to not become too weak to defend himself and survive and to take a much needed break.


But I do agree that now I re-read this, it does make a lot of sense regarding Vorador's (and perhaps vampires in general) reproduction habits.

Quick, get me a show on the Discovery Channel. I may be on to something.

[warpsavant]

I'll see what I can do.

I think that Vorador is the only one with the power to sire. I dont think other vampires can sire. If it takes 200 yrs for Vorador to recouperate, then I would have to say that a vampire would have to be very old before it could sire in the first place.

Because if other vampires could sire, you wouldn't need Vorador. When Vorador was too weak, some other vampire could've sired more of their kind, but that's not how it was.

Or maybe other vampires can sire, but they just dont. Outta respect for Vorador, or fear possibly.

[Umah Bloodomen]

Originally posted by warpsavant
I'll see what I can do.

I think that Vorador is the only one with the power to sire. I dont think other vampires can sire. If it takes 200 yrs for Vorador to recouperate, then I would have to say that a vampire would have to be very old before it could sire in the first place.

Because if other vampires could sire, you wouldn't need Vorador. When Vorador was too weak, some other vampire could've sired more of their kind, but that's not how it was.

Or maybe other vampires can sire, but they just dont. Outta respect for Vorador, or fear possibly.

I will agree with this notion, Warp. It only stands to reason that Vorador is the only one able to sire. Everyone seems so concerned with him doing it, which implies that it is true.

Another thing, if the other vampires could sire I am sure that they would. I mean look at Kain, he wants to create new vampires and can't. I am sure if Marcus and Faustus could do it, they would have to further their own agendas. I think there would be a lot of power hungry, vampire reproducing menaces out in the world.

Naturally I would assume that someone out there would want to surpass the power of the ancient Vorador. (Kain is a good example of this). On another note, I would assume that the 200 year break from reproducing would follow a similar length in breeding time. 200 years, he sires - 200 years off. It makes sense. I don't think he goes overboard necessarily, but makes enough to ensure the species is preserved and at the top of the food chain.

[Azrael]

I think all vampires can sire by the original methods, less Kain (because he's not 100% vamp), just think how Raz & company did their clans:

Theory:
They made the first "wave" of vamps (maybe 20-30) then those first made vamps made the second "wave" of vamps, and so on...

And that didn't take to long to they progreed, then just look at the SR1 manual (page 7):

...The destruction of the major human was inevitable. Whithin a hundred years humanity had been thoroughly domesticated...

[warpsavant]

But thats different, cause Vorador is dead, as he aint around, so I assume he is dead. So then all bets are off. In all probability, Vorador is the only one WHO KNOWS how to sire.

Kain and his children are different. Kain could not create "Legions" he could only create 6 Vampires, and even when he did that the last few were pathetic wretches. So the Lts HAD TO reproduce, simply because KAIN could not.

[keepittrue]

Well, I dont think Vorador reproduced the same in BO2 as he did in BO1. My memory is a little hazy but I think Amy stated in Warps interview that Vorador reproduce the more traditional way. Few more reasons why but I just dont think he reproduced the same, however it is highly likely that he did reproduce the same way but for some reason I just have a feeling he did not. Maybe its the attitude change or the change in styles in gameplay and how V was in BO1 and BO2. I dont know but for some reason I just dont think he reproduced the same way.

[Non-existent]

Umah:

So how is this?

Vorador wad sired by Janos
Vorador sires his first brood (say within the 200 years of his own sire)
Vorador takes a hiatus from siring (lack of strength) for 200 years.
Vorador creates a new brood
New brood is wiped out (BO1)
Vorador dies (supposedly)
Vorador comes back (how is unknown) creates more vampires (not necessarily right away...when his strength returned)
Vorador takes another hiatus
BO2 Occurs.

Does not fly, if you are suggesting Vorador was the only vampire to sire others throughout Nosgoth.

First off, all we know is that Janos was the last of the Ancients, and that he sired Vorador. What we do not know is: Exactly how many Ancients were still around when Janos turned Vorador, how Janos figured out how to turn Vorador to begin with, whether or not Janos turned any others besides Vorador (no clue is given about this, Vorador is claimed to be the oldest vampire in BO1, sure, but the story never confirms he was the first human turned or not, just oldest living at the time), and most importantly we have no clue whether or not other Ancients also turned other humans. It would be very conceivable that other Ancients did, and that Janos created but the one, thus causing Janos to outlive the others (him not wasting strength on constantly propagating vampirism while the others sire constantly and waste away).

Now, according to BO1, in some sections that is, Vorador is called the father of Vampires, but then again, BO1 is a shambles when it comes to reliable information, ask Warp, the strat guide cannot even begin to agree on how many guardians Vorador killed. Besides, 'Father of Vampires' can just be an honorary title, like the 'Father of Modern Literature', etc. Such a title is often not true, just that the person gained the most respect/acclaim early on in the movement.

Mostly why I am against Vorador being the true father of vampires is the fact that the LoK series is already beginning to suffer from cheesiness that moves it from thought provoking/ground breaking to cookie cutter formulae that will pump out another sequel. Seriously, Janos was unneccesary in BO2, no matter if it sheds more light on the Hylden/Ancient War and entanglement; the history of the Hylden and Ancients could have been shed without Janos, in fact, it would've been much better to thicken the plot with a new Ancient. It looks like the Elder is going to show up, again (seriously, as much as I like Tony Jay's voice acting the octopus on steroids needs a definite resolution soon, but with the weapons like the one under Meridian, does not look to happen) ol' squid face is just getting ridiculous, it is like the GI Joe episodes where everything comes back to Cobra Commander. The series needs to introduce new menaces or all Nosgoth will become is Valhalla where its all the same faces battling it out each day.

Umah: I am sure if Marcus and Faustus could do it, they would have to further their own agendas. I think there would be a lot of power hungry, vampire reproducing menaces out in the world.

Not true. You forget that Macrus, Faustus and Sebastian, by their very nature are untrusting and jealous of power as well. They would not risk creating a score of progeny that may one day unseat them through direct usurpation or by gaining the favor of the SL. Then there is the fact that as much as they like to claim they are independent the SL owns and controls them, so if the SL says to them, keep the vamp pop low and do not add to it they will not add to it out of fear.

Those who desire power will only give it to those they believe they can control. Vampires, by their nature, are quite difficult to control, so those who want power will be less likely to try. Kain was willing because he is beyond arrogant and knows he has the power to back it, even in BO2 at his weakest he was much more powerful than any thought he could be (Umah was surprised he could even walk so soon after waking). Marcus, Sebastian and Faustus on the other hand, they were sniveling rats that were used because they were not strong enough to contest the SL directly, or even Kain directly, and only did so when they thought him weak, they preferred to leave direct confrontation for when they believed themselves to have the upperhand, and still used cowardly tactics to try to give themselves the edge. Such beings would never risk creating off spring that might one day turn against them.

[keepittrue]

keepittrue applauds, very good.

[Azrael]

WOW , good thought Non, i like the final part...

[Non-existent]

keep/Azra: Thanks for the compliments.

To expound on the subject of Marcus, Sebastian, and Faustus and why they would not create other vampires:

(Note: This is very much a rambling section and may not flow well, just producing some thoughts)

Marcus:

Stay back! You cannot win! The bishop will tell you nothing while he
remains under my power and you will never catch me.

Notice his gift. He controls others absolutely by subverting their will. This seems to also indicate a desire for as much control as possible or else why would his gift have become as powerful as it was. Marcus would not want to create other vampires that might inherit his ability and possibly become so powerful with it they could control him. Also, why have a dozen potential back-stabbers when you can have a dozen loyal bodyguards, who would set themselves on fire and do everything they can to safe guard you? Marcus is the king he imagines himself to be when he is surrounded by his living puppets, something he cannot get if he creates vampires. Notice Marcus runs early on, intent on finding the Bishop over confronting Kain directly.

(Anyone notice that Marcus could be said to have a Hive Mind, much like Zephon, or that Magnus was water resistant much like Rahab, or Sebastian was a power house like Dumah?)

Sebastian: Classic case of the cowardly, he betrays Kain and the other vampires to the SL rather than any other course of action. He envied Kain his power, and wanted to be a king like Kain. With the SL he is still not king, but then again, he gets to slaughter humans, boss around Serafan, and basically act all around tough. No doubt he fears other vampires, as he would not even face newly awakened Kain (despite Sebastian saying that he did not fight Kain because he had to be somewhere else, let's face it, that is a blantant lie because he had the time to have that conversation with Kain, killing Kain in that state would not have been much more time consuming). He only faces Kain when ordered by the SL to guard the Nexus Stone. This is not a vampire who is going to trust even his own offspring following him, especially when together they might overthrow him, or just one might go to the SL with a fabrication to have him ousted.

Faustus:

What is our kind? In serving the Sarafan I have protection. I have
power and who better to hunt down a vampire than a more powerful vampire. History is written by the winners, Kain, that is my kind.

Protection is the key there. Faustus fears the Serafan definitely and Vampires presumably, but with the SL he gets some degree of power over others, and only has to fear the vampires, which, since he hangs around the Serafan and is probably older, and thus more powerful than the average vampire in the Cabal, means he has little to fear there. Faustus, wanting to be a winner, would not risk losing to another vampire, so he would not risk creating his own enemy.


There is also this curious quote from Umah (the one in BO2 that is):

Peasant: Wait! Tell Umah that I helped you, please. She promised the Dark Gift if I did as she asked. You'll tell her, won't you?

Unless Umah meant Vorador then maybe other vampires can sire vampires, but again, the energy required would limit the numbers to insignificant in the face of the Serafan threat. Or it may mean Umah was lying, and so was Vorador when he promised the Bishop, something to think about.

As to why Vorador would create, but not other Cabal members (assuming the ability to turn humans is shared): Well, if age is significant, then, it appears no Cabal member is old enough to sire vampires, or maybe not in the numbers Vorador can. Umah did not know Kain personally, no other vampires appeared to, in fact, they seemed to hold Kain in awe, as if he was Legend and not true. The only vampires (besides Vorador, Kain, and Janos) that are known for sure to be over 200 years of age are Faustus, Marcus, Sebastian, and Magnus (but then again, no telling how old the Eternal prison made him, and no telling if turning is possible in those time warped walls).

Transylvanians:
Let's do the time-warp again.
Narrator:
It's just a jump to the left.
All:
And then a step to the right.
Narrator:
With your hands on your hips.

Ummm, anyways, other Cabal members might not have had the appropriate age to give them the energy required to turn a human successfully and live. This might necessitate Vorador setting some guidelines on who can and cannot turn others. Then there is the risk of betrayal, Vorador might only allow himself to turn humans because he is a better judge of character. (Most likely it is the age thing, no vampire in the cabal currently powerful enough to successfully turn a human and survive the process).

Then there is motivation. Vorador is not looking for an army to gain him power, he is looking for a society, or better yet family if you will. A family with rules, sure, but a family that while he is the head of it he is not the absolute ruler of it. He appears to encourage independence in his progeny. He makes it clear Kain is not the boss but that Kain is in no way subject to his (Vorador's) will either.

Of course, not knowing the true limitations this is speculation. I am currently basing my speculation that all vampires can turn humans based on BO1 and SR2, in that there was such a number of vampires shown during the purges that it is highly doubtful Vorador created them all, even given millenia to do it. This means that either other Ancients created vampires who shared Vorador's ability to spread the blood curse, or Vorador is the only direct Ancient descended but his offspring can turn others as well (or else the sheer numbers seen staked in SR2, and the number faced in BO1 makes the whole time and energy thing suspicious if only Vorador can turn humans).

Then there is BO1, sketchy to use it, but here goes: When Kain shows up in Vorador's Mansion. Vorador knows Kain was not turned by him, but shows no surprise at all. This indicates, quite heavily, that there were other vampires capable of spreading vampirism. Vorador always seemed to be about restraint when it came to increasing vampire numbers and thus increasing the risk to all vampires. (note: I bolded that because it was the last thing I thought of before typing it in, and it fit best in this section)

Then there is Kain. Obviously Kain desires power and control, and is more than confident that he can enforce his decisions. That he prefers vampires over humans shows he distrusts humans, or he looks at them as too low and cowardly a life form (latter much more likely). That he concedes the right for Vorador to raise the vampire army, and believes himself to be incapable indicates he has no clue how different from other vampires he is. He says he could never raise a vampire army like Vorador did, which is true, because Kain is an altogether different form of vampire, requiring a new method if raising, which is shared (if not precisely the same then in a modified form) by Raziel and his brothers.

With a noblemen's mentality, his upbringing in Coorhagen, from the sounds of it a court where only the strongest rulers survive, he would most likely feel right at home with followers who were potential threats. Then there is no doubt a natural charisma a good leader must have along with sharp wits. Kain risks little in having six potential threats at his side, no doubt he would be most comfortable in such a situation, other vampires would probably not feel the same way. Which would be why Kain would encourage the raising of vampires and their armies to further the world he can best survive in.

[Azrael]

Hmm, that's a good thought on vampire creation in LoK series, but i don't think that age is somehow required, but like i stated before, if its age required to create a vamp so it was impossible to the Lieutenents to create other vamps, i say this because im not seing Kain and his Lieutenants hiding for 200 years to create their offspring... i think they started to create a few days since they were turned into vamps(or ressurect if you prefer).

And about the traitor vamps... if you notice they only attack Kain directly at first (thinking that he should be still very weak to confront them), but when they see that he's not that weak, they try to kill him at distance

Posted by Non-existent:
...Kain risks little in having six potential threats at his side, no doubt he would be most comfortable in such a situation, other vampires would probably not feel the same way...

I don't think that he risks to much, because they are afraid of him (probably because he's teir sire, or just too old that they wouldn't have any chance to defeat him, or just simply they fear the Soul Reaver (as it looks he never separates from it)), and they get more fear of him when he casts Raziel into the Abyss (we see that by their devolution(thats a good reason for that) and by their retreat into the depths of their territories)...Well thats my thoughts!


And again, nice theory

[Non-existent]

Azrael:

but i don't think that age is somehow required, but like i stated before, if its age required to create a vamp so it was impossible to the Lieutenents to create other vamps, i say this because im not seing Kain and his Lieutenants hiding for 200 years to create their offspring

Actually, the process of turning a vampire for Kain and his Lieutenants might not have the age limitation that Vorador and his ilk suffer from. It is not known if vampires created from Kain take any energy on the part of the creator or not (though the creation of Raz and the Brothers did take some in the form of Kain's soul that might have been to make the Raz and the Brothers unique in comparison to the vampires they themselves would create).

According to Vorador it took time and energy to create a vampire, neither of which he had during BO2. Kain may only suffer from the energy limitation when trying to make a vampire of greater than average strength/abilities (hence Raz and the Brothers took a portion of Kain's soul, leaving each newly created a little less powerful with Melchiah the weakest, but Raz and Co. might have started turning vamps right away, and those vamps, not taking pieces of the brothers souls or less, possbily, which would make the common vampire weaker, but easier to spread the plague of vampires throughout Nosgoth).

(The time limitation seems to hold true no matter what for the newly created vampire to gain in strength and control of their new forms)

Note: The reason I cannot tell whether the brothers clans used pieces of the Brothers soul is because of the ambiguity in SR itself. In the case of the brothers we know Kain used a piece of his soul to raise the brothers, but in the game (manual) we are told the vampires are created by reanimating a corpse with a soul from the abyss. Whether the common vampire in SR is made by using a portion of the creator's soul or not, like in Kain's raising of his lieutenants is unknown. With the amount of vampires faced in SR it has to be presumed that the vampires take no portion of the creator's soul to be turned, it takes very little, or the soul happens to replenish itself, or the lieutenants do not suffer Kain's limitation of using a portion of their soul but they cannot make vampires any stronger than the apparent norm. (This would limit creation of vampires in any case to those who can find souls and place them into bodies, which may take some degree of raw strength as well, leaving lesser vampires out)

The question is left in SR whether or not only the lieutenants could raise others. This is in question from the scores of Dumahim that happen to litter the landscape of Nosgoth when Dumah had been quite incapable of spreading his kind for quite a few centuries, and the comparable numbers of the other clans was about the same.

[keepittrue]

Very nice, I do like that explanation.
The way Kain and his liutenants reproduced were different from Vorador, Amy has already stated that.
I agree with NE about Vorador. I do think something is wrong with V being weak after making Vampires, and NE pointed out something real good when he said V knew he did not create Kain but was not surprised he was a vamp so therefore other vamps can make vamps.

[warpsavant]

Maybe they can, but since you never see any, it is plausible that they can not. Even if they could I think they wouldnt out fear of being usurped.

I think the biggest difference between Kain/Vorador is the fact that it would appear that Vorador turns living humans (the peasant and the Bishop are examples) but Kain raised corpses, and in the Garden of the Dead (or whatever it is), Raziel mentions Melchiahs brood recruiting fledglings from corpses.

[Non-existent]

warp: Just because you do not see them turn humans into vamps it is plausible they cannot, true, but at the same time, it is just as plausible they can. Lack of evidence in both directions is what we have. Of course, it is mainly BO1 and SR2 with their number of vampires and the fact of Kain being a vampire and Vorador not being at all surprised that is causing this contradictory evidence.

All we know for sure: At the end of BO1 the only one capable of creating vampires was Vorador (presumably his ressurection left him as powerful as before). During BO2 Vorador is the only one in the Cabal credited with raising any vampires. Vampires in BO1 seemed to spawn from more than Vorador's efforts (given the Vorador recognition factor).

Let us not forget this, Kain says Vorador raised his army, yes, but all that could mean is that Vorador started the chain, and helped create the numbers, but Vorador was the Origin of the army. Because Kain's exact words are, "You created a new race, something I could never do, and from that race I raised my army". The only suggestion that Vorador is the only one is when he says, "it takes time and energy to make a vampire and I have not the strength". That is the only suggestion that he is the only one, and it is not that strong of a suggestion because it says he has not the strength, indicating that others could should they become powerful enough. His creation of a new race seems to suggest propagation beyond just himself turning humans.

Actually, I suggested only Faustus, Sebastian, and Marcus would not create others from either fear of being displaced by their 'children' or fear of the SL's retribution if he told them not to.

The rest of the Cabal comes down to age, Vorador telling them to keep their teeth in their mouth, or both.

I always figured Vorador and his kind turned living humans, being the main difference between Kain and Vorador is their state of undeath. Vorador and his kind go from Life to Unlife, Kain and his kind go from Death to Undeath (which is just Unlife with a different word).

[keepittrue]

I def agree with the last part NE. But in BO2 I believe V was the one who made all the other Vampires unless there are 2 races which I doubt. I think V made all the Vamps we see and the ones Kain used for his army in BO2 and postBO2. Something is starting to tell me CD may have a little bit of nonaccuracy when it comes to how Vamps are made and how V made them in BO1 and BO2.

I dont agree with that statement made Warp if you are refering to BO1, I do agree if you mean BO2.