Umah discussion

[Lady Minerva]

This was supposed to be a poll, but due to spam (as I'm been informed by other members), this will have to be a regular discussion thread. I was going to wait, but I was encouraged to go ahead and post it anyway, just for the discussion value.

So, okay. Here goes.

How maybe people think that Kain was too hard on Umah, over her taking his Stone from him and running off?

Basically, I think he should have helped her, then have Janos teleport in
to get her and taken her home -- with a note stapled to her forehead, telling Vorador what happened and requesting that the Cabal leader keep her out of his hair for the rest of the mission.

Anyway, Umah Bloodomen and I have been having an off-line discussion about this and I have been convinced to go ahead and share the question. In fact, she says she's got some insites to add to the mix, if posted.

Take it, Umah.

[Serul]

Let's not forget that Kain thought that Umah was a spy for the Sarafan Lord.

[Lady Minerva]

Ooo, hey. Yeah. I forgot about that. But I wonder, when exactly, he came to that unproven conclusion?

[Umah Bloodomen]

Okay, I took the liberty to start a character thesis if you will. It will be appearing on my LoK fansite when it is complete. Here are some interesting tidbits of the thesis of Umah pertaining to this current thread. (For the rest of this character thesis, you'll just have to await the site's completion. )

Umah’s Betrayal: Premeditated or Impulsive? Is Love Something To Consider?

With the many ironies of the Legacy of Kain Series™, I felt that it was inevitable that Umah would betray Kain. Despite this, I believe that her motive for doing so wasn't as vindictive as most other characters who have done the same. I believe that Umah simply wanted to be the hero, I didn't get the impression that she wanted take away all that Kain had accomplished. As Kain continued on through Blood Omen 2™ his arrogance became more apparent. I am willing to believe that Vorador had discussed Kain and his arrogant, power-hungry nature with his child following Kain’s defeat at the hands of The Sarafan Lord 200 years ago. Umah most likely disregarded Vorador’s warnings of Kain as she cared for him during his slumber. I believe that this is when she learned to hold feelings for Kain. By the time that Kain had awakened, Umah was beginning to fall in love. As she retrained Kain, I believe she naively felt that Vorador was wrong about him, and even perhaps underestimated him herself. I don’t believe that Vorador ever really liked Kain on account of Kain’s desire for power. Umah foolishly stated at the beginning of Blood Omen 2™ that the Cabal could not defeat the Sarafan alone, and that they were willing to put everything on the line in order to enlist Kain to help their cause. When it appeared that Kain grew closer to his victory over The Sarafan Lord, Umah panicked. She was devoted to Vorador and Kain was infringing on that bond and making her look like less of a leader to her kind. Fearing her own embarrassment and perhaps feeling that she was no longer Vorador’s “favorite”, Umah needed to do something, and fast. In her mind, taking the Nexus Stone surely would protect her from being defeated by The Sarafan Lord. At this point, nothing mattered but her own reputation. Did Umah love Kain? Yes. I believe she did, however, she proved willing to throw her feelings aside to maintain the bond with her sire, Vorador, without weighing the consequences of her actions first.

Umah’s Death: Justified or Uncalled For? Did Kain Love Umah?

What kind of leader would Kain be if he had spared Umah? Kain would be a total hypocrite if he let her live, and destroyed others who committed trespasses against him (Marcus, Faustus). She betrayed him by stealing his glory, actually not necessarily HIS glory per say, but THEIR glory. From the dialogue, it seemed that Kain was willing to share the victory of defeating the Sarafan Lord, however Umah's impulsive nature prevented that. I agree that Umah gave Kain what he wanted to hear as opposed to the truth, which in fact condemned her. He was justified in taking her life because a good leader must ensure just punishment for subjects who step out of line, this leads to deterring similar crimes from taking place. Umah's death occurred as a just punishment. I don't think Vorador even questioned the punishment when Kain let him in on the details surrounding Umah’s death. Although Vorador was shocked and upset by the death of his child, (as any parent would be) he didn’t really argue about it, nor did he seem to resent Kain for doing it. Umah betrayed Kain and let down her beloved Cabal. Perhaps Vorador was embarrassed by Umah’s actions in the end. Either way, he knew what the result of treachery was, and could only respect the punishment enforced. I believe it was obvious that Kain had feelings for Umah. Allowing himself to feel love for anyone must have been a difficult task since becoming a vampire. Even at the time of her death, Kain never talked down to Umah, yelled at her, nor did he question why she had betrayed him. I believe Kain was tortured by having to take Umah’s life but had to inform her of what she had done wrong, perhaps to justify his actions to himself. I believe it was a sign of true love to both comfort Umah yet still punish her. I believe that Kain felt that he was doing her a favor, sparing her from a more agonizing death at his hands, as well as sparing her from the future events of Nosgoth..

What If Umah Had Lived?

Kain was not stupid. He knew that whatever compassion he began showing Umah would only get in the way if he had let her live. She is again, too impulsive and would jeopardize Kain's rise to glory. No offense, but if I worked as hard as Kain did and put up with the things Kain had over the course of these games I would most definately not want to jeopardize it for mere impulse. Perhaps if Umah had actually took the time and effort to discipline herself, then the jeopardy would be worth making her Kain's queen. If Umah had been spared, she would indeed have gained some of Kain's gifts but I still stand behind the argument that she is WAY too impulsive and naive to use them. (I refuse to call her "stupid" just lacks common sense. (She strikes me more as “book smart” rather than “street smart”). I think she would let his power go straight to her head and would've ended up getting herself killed anyway. I am willing to believe that if Umah lived, she and Vorador would clash instead of upholding the close-knit relationship that they did. Vorador and Kain don't get along because of Kain's arrogance and whatnot, and you know Kain would try to instill some of that trademark arrogance into Umah, perhaps taking her on as his own "prodigy". I mean he did instill his arrogance in 6 other individuals we all know and love.(The Sarafan brethren). I would stand to think that Vorador may have even taken Umah out if these events transpired, he's not one to jeopardize all that he's worked hard for just because of someones lack of good judgement. He still remained reserved about many of Kain's actions in BO2.

I hope this further's our off-forum discussions Minerva! I think you will find some of my ramblings a bit interesting. Looking forward to some feedback.

Umah character thesis is a written work of Umah Bloodomen - Copyright 2002. All Rights Reserved. Not for reproduction without expressed permission.

[Lady Minerva]

I'm not done reading this yet, but before I forget, I 've got to point out that General Hylden defeated Lord Kain 200 years ago, ... not 400.

On Umah's Motivations:
There was also Kain's ambitions in themselves. She seemed afraid of what might happen if he did win, how he would rule. Would his rule really be more just that General Hylden's? Or would he see the Cabal (at that point obsolete) as a threat to his position and wipe them out? In fact, she seemed so sure that he would metamophosize into the thing that they hated and feared that she seemed to go so far as to exclude him from their race, referring to her band as "we vampires" (or was it "us vampires"?), ... like he wasn't one of them anymore.

Vorador's Reaction:
Still, he was pretty preeved at first, huh, when he heard how the girl died? Seems like our boy just can't seem to stay out of trouble, ... even with his associates.

[Umah Bloodomen]

Typo on my part. I had a reference to the events of BO1 being 400 years before Kain woke up. (As you can see I changed direction with the point. I'll edit that out.

[Lady Minerva]

Good points, tho'. I should've seen some of that coming myself.

An interesting point with their relationship.

It's touching, isn't it, when he commends her courage as she's dying. The way he speaks softly to her in a voice so gentle, it almost doesn't sound like him -- and the way he gently strokes her, with his claws away from her so he doesn't stratch her in the process.

For a brief moment, he almost seems, well, ... human again. Or at least a little humane.

Huh. That doesn't last long, tho', when she tells him what he and we all already know, that she's dying. And his response (that cold, decisive tone) is that he's not likely to lift a claw to help her, ... not that he doesn't lift a claw -- except to put her down.

One thing's for sure: here's a guy you don't mess with.

[SirRaziel]

I wonder what will happen if Raziel ever finds out?

[Umah Bloodomen]

It's not Raz I am worried about.... **looks around innocently*** It's Blincoln.


Hell hath no fury like a Blincoln scorned.

[SirRaziel]

Want me to put it in my comic? Raziel finds out about Kain and Umah.

[Umah Bloodomen]

I don't think Umah is quite Raziel's type but sure go ahead.

[Lady Minerva]

Just testing my signature image. Cool, huh?

[Umah Bloodomen]

However I feel you are going to get a response from the higher ups that periodically check the forums. Now. I had a tall sig and received this in the LoK Community chat:

Originally Posted by XCom

Time for reminder:

Signatures
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Quick examination of this forum revealed the fact that some members go beyond permitted width and height limits. Please, adjust your signatures accordingly.

Thanks!

I had one of Umah sitting ontop of Blincoln's computer and (as you can see) I had to change mine to fit the requirements.
**cries because she can't pay homage to Blinc**

[Vampmaster]

In SR2, when Kain is explaining how Nupraptor corrupted the circles minds with suspisions of treatuary (sp?). Well I think this has made Kain paranoid, suspecting everyone of being traitors the second they even question him. This is what I think it means that he is corrupted. This is also why he will deal with treatuary with the severest of punishments.

[BadGuysAlwaysWin]

Actually, Nupraptor DOES infect the Circle because he believes one of them slew Ariel. Most likely, however, Kain's "madness" is that he does not live and die to maintain the balance, but rather, does what he personally feels is right.

[Umah Bloodomen]

Originally posted by Vampmaster
In SR2, when Kain is explaining how Nupraptor corrupted the circles minds with suspisions of treatuary (sp?). Well I think this has made Kain paranoid, suspecting everyone of being traitors the second they even question him. This is what I think it means that he is corrupted. This is also why he will deal with treatuary with the severest of punishments.

Treachery btw...

[Vampmaster]

Originally posted by BadGuysAlwaysWin
Actually, Nupraptor DOES infect the Circle because he believes one of them slew Ariel. Most likely, however, Kain's "madness" is that he does not live and die to maintain the balance, but rather, does what he personally feels is right.

That's not madness, it's the sanest thing he does in the game. If he made the wrong decision (which I don't think he did), it was because of the "madness". Madness isn't something you do, it's a way that you think.

[Azuriel]

Kain saves an entire race from extinction, and prevents the demons from penetrating the primary realm. that is not a personal decision.

[BadGuysAlwaysWin]

I cannot help but think that Kain's decision to not sacrifice himself was not based on preventing the Hylden from entering Nosgoth - especially since he did not know about them. I already pointed out that all the selfish decisions Kain makes somehow turn out to be the CORRECT decision, but at the time that he makes them, they are selfish decisions nonetheless. The prime example of this is his damning of the Pillars. Although it was the correct choice, as it allowed Vampires to exist, who can now go back in time and FIX the problem, it was not made for the decision of ultimately saving everyone. Kain felt angry at the Humans and the Circle, for they had done nothing but manipulate him (Mortanius had him killed, Moebius had him basically kill his own species, and Ariel lied to him to have him wipe out the Circle). And if one had to choose examples of Races, give one Human that would be able to equal the great Vorador? Thus, Kain chose to damn the world of Humans, rather than to wipe out the world of Vampires. But since he WAS the last Vampire, this IS a case of sacrificing the many to save the one. Which is a selfish decision.

[Umah Bloodomen]

Let me ask you something. If I walked up to you and told you that you have to kill yourself for this reason, without going into detail about it, would you be so willing just to throw your future away along with everything you worked for prior to the moment of being asked?

I understand sacrifices need to be made, but no offense, I would certainly want to find out all the reasons why I supposedly "need" to terminate my own existence.

So it is selfish? Where the hell were the beloved humans to help Kain when he was being assassinated? Even when Kain returned as a vampire, his assassins still roamed freely. They weren't punished, they weren't murdered themselves/ They were still walking around, most likely commiting crimes and whatnot.

I most certainly would hold a grudge and put my existence before that of others in this sense, ESPECIALLY to seek out the answers of why I should not hold that grudge and eventually help humanity and Nosgoth. Obviously Nosgoth is a dog eat dog world and this is a classic example of Darwinism (survival of the fittest). Kain is "visibly" the fittest right now. If he sacrificed himself tomorrow, doesn't necessarily mean that Nosgoth will go back to being a "happy place". There are still manipulative beings around to contend with. Either Kain stays around to seek those beings out so that when the time comes to sacrifice himself (if that be the case) then him doing so will indeed have a benefit. I don't think Kain is an idiot, and therefore don't think he will take such a drastic leap if nothing good were to come of it. (Meaning his death didn't change a damned thing).

[Vampmaster]

Yeah, but that doesn't mean that he can't make mistakes or rash decisions (such killing allies because of paranoia) because of the effects of Nupraptor corrupting his mind.

[BadGuysAlwaysWin]

Actually, Kain knew exactly WHY he was being asked to sacrifice himself. And, honestly, when Ariel said "there is no cure for death, only release," I honestly felt that Kain knew that he would be given a chance to RETURN to death at the end of his mission, rather than the Abyss (the place the Vampires go when they die, according to Vorador). Thus, I think that Kain wasn't TRICKED, in that he thought he would be returned to life and at the last minute, the truth was SPRUNG on him. It was just that Kain did not KNOW that he was the Circle of Balance. Ariel did not feel the need to tell him this because Kain SOUGHT release. I feel that Kain made his decision for these reasons:
Kain was disgusted: Kain had seen the reality of Humanity. Good (Ottmar) was defeated by evil (the Nemesis), and even when Kain went back in time to change all this, evil still won (in the form of the Vampire Hunters. By the way, what do you think happened to Ottmar now? I say that, since Kain already knew the strengths of his army and his strategies, Ottmar and Willendorf were the first powers to fall to Kain's army at the end of BO1, in that 200 year conquering spree that he had). Kain thus felt that he was better than all the people that were to be "saved," and so decided to "save" himself.
Kain was a changed man: When Kain originally began the quest, he fully knew that he would die at the end. He also felt that Vampirism was a hideous curse. Over the course of his adventures, however, he met evil, horrible Humans, and righteous, just Vampires. In fact, Vampires were more heroic in BO1 than any of the Humans. Kain grew to enjoy life as a Vampire, and so, naturally changed his mind about sacrificing himself. He did not know, when he started, that his death was the KEY to restoring the Pillars; he had naturally assumed that it was to be his reward. And so, he decided to live.
Kain was power-hungry: With the extinction of the mighty Vampires, and the destruction of the Circle of Nine, Kain was the most powerful being on Nosgoth. With his newfound weapons and abilities, Kain was a match for any mortal army. His entire mortal life, he had sought power, and fought for power. Now, in death, he had finally achieved power, and absolute power at that. Why would he want to sacrifice this? As he had already indicated, Coorhagen was a dog-eat-dog place, and Kain had grown up as the perfect son of Coorhagen.
Kain was mad: I don't mean "angry" mad; I mean "Nupraptor" mad. Kain was mad from birth. The Madness manifested differently in each of the Circle Members, and seemed to alter the way they carried out their duties: Bane, Guardian of Nature, corrupted Nosgoth and created Dark Eden; Azimuth, Guardian of Dimensions, ripped the fabric of reality; Moebius, Guardian of Time, changed history; Mortanius, Guardian of Death, directly had someone killed and then resurrected him; Malek, Guardian of Conflict, hid himself away in a mountaintop castle while violence erupted everywhere; Dejoul, Guardian of Energy, distorted magic to create Dark Eden; Anacrothe, Guardian of States, disrupted the being of all creatures in Dark Eden; Nupraptor, Guardian of Mind, went mad and in turn made everyone else mad; and Kain, Guardian of Balance, chose himself above the Balance of the Pillars and of Nosgoth. Therefore, I think that Kain's insanity made all the other reasons I stated (which a regular Pillar of Balance would have disregarded) seem to justify his damning Nosgoth to maintain his own life.

[Non-existent]

BadGuys:

I love this one:

Thus, I think that Kain wasn't TRICKED, in that he thought he would be returned to life and at the last minute, the truth was SPRUNG on him.

Actually, he was tricked, and quite expertly. Ariel said there was no cure for death, she never said anything about Vampirism, then she offers him the one thing to best manipulate him, hope. She tells him he will find 'release' from his curse if he cleanses the circle. Irony is that he does not seem to equate being dead and his vampirism as the same. No, Ariel is quite the deceiver and destroyer of balance herself. Love has no place in balance, neither does revenge, Ariel has both.

And to this:

Kain was mad: I don't mean "angry" mad; I mean "Nupraptor" mad. Kain was mad from birth. The Madness manifested differently in each of the Circle Members, and seemed to alter the way they carried out their duties: Bane, Guardian of Nature, corrupted Nosgoth and created Dark Eden; Azimuth, Guardian of Dimensions, ripped the fabric of reality; Moebius, Guardian of Time, changed history; Mortanius, Guardian of Death, directly had someone killed and then resurrected him; Malek, Guardian of Conflict, hid himself away in a mountaintop castle while violence erupted everywhere; Dejoul, Guardian of Energy, distorted magic to create Dark Eden; Anacrothe, Guardian of States, disrupted the being of all creatures in Dark Eden; Nupraptor, Guardian of Mind, went mad and in turn made everyone else mad; and Kain, Guardian of Balance, chose himself above the Balance of the Pillars and of Nosgoth. Therefore, I think that Kain's insanity made all the other reasons I stated (which a regular Pillar of Balance would have disregarded) seem to justify his damning Nosgoth to maintain his own life.

No, no, no. The One with Morty is all wrong. No one said Morty could not kill others and even ressurect them, that may have been a habitual duty he performed from the beginning to learn the secrets of the dead, no one knows. Malek may have retreated, but that means nothing, it means he embodies conflict, it does not mean he has to be in the middle of it, in fact, Malek built himself a fortress and army, seems perfectly in line with what a Gurdian of Conflict would do to prepare for a siege.

Your list is only half complete, in that you list the effect, but not the cause. The effect was the misuse of the Pillars powers, the cause was the insanity making them hate Nosgoth and see it as their playtoy. Nupraptor's insanity was a deep hatred for the Circle and Nosgoth. Each Circle member, infected with his madness began to mistrust eachother and began to attack Nosgoth. The Misuse of the Pillars was effect, an aspect of an insanity that would demand their attacking Nosgoth no matter what. See, the madness did not manifest differently, in fact, it manifested quite uniformly, only the tools used were different. The madness was bringing pain, destruction, and death to Nosgoth. The tools were each of the Guardians' Pillars.

Mortanius is a unique case. There is no evidence of his use of his pillar to attack Nosgoth. Do not point at Kain and say, "Ah Ha!" because Kain was actually raised to do what Morty apparently saw no one else could do, cleanse the circle, that Kain was already a person that would bring suffering to others is quite apparent. Morty in fact seemed rather constrained in his insanity, except for one thing, he admits he is no longer sane. (Then there is the whole possession thing, which tends to put a damper on the relationship between Guardian and Pillar)

BadGuysAlwaysWin: I already pointed out that all the selfish decisions Kain makes somehow turn out to be the CORRECT decision, but at the time that he makes them, they are selfish decisions nonetheless.

Think about this, could it be, despite his madness, Kain's wrong/selfish decisions are in fact his innate sense of balance manifesting itself despite his madness? Sure, he may not know his not killing himself was the right thing, but it does not mean the Pillar is not acting through him. Kain has an advantage no other Guardian had, he was raised insane from birth with no knowledge of his role as Guardian and the power it gives him. Then there is the dubious manner of the Court of Coorhagen, a cruel and vindictive court from what little we are told of it, that would make Kain seem only a little more extreme than his fellow noblemen. Such an upbringing may have caused the madness in him to be somewhat different.

Throughout each game it is never seen that he used the Pillars strength in any way, shape, or form. If anything it appears he never was given the benefit of fully developing the symbiotic link to his pillar, which makes it so that balance can still act through him. If he is making the right decisions despite his best efforts to be selfish then maybe he has not misused the Pillar at all and has been serving Balance unwitting from his birth. Something to think on.

Case in example:

and Kain, Guardian of Balance, chose himself above the Balance of the Pillars and of Nosgoth. Therefore, I think that Kain's insanity made all the other reasons I stated (which a regular Pillar of Balance would have disregarded) seem to justify his damning Nosgoth to maintain his own life

It was selfish, but was he truly placing himself above balance, or was balance perhaps exerting enough influence on him to truly make him decide to embrace his vampirism? After all, any true balance guardian would have known through the balance itself that their death would not have served the balance, they would have felt it, if not known it (another indication that Ariel is not still part of the balance).

[BadGuysAlwaysWin]

OK, real kwik cuz I had it all written out and accidently pressed a link and lost the WHOLE thing GRRRRR.

I love this one:

Way to go.

Actually, he was tricked, and quite expertly. Ariel said there was no cure for death, she never said anything about Vampirism, then she offers him the one thing to best manipulate him, hope. She tells him he will find 'release' from his curse if he cleanses the circle. Irony is that he does not seem to equate being dead and his vampirism as the same. No, Ariel is quite the deceiver and destroyer of balance herself. Love has no place in balance, neither does revenge, Ariel has both.

You would have to be pretty uneducated in vampire lore to not think that telling a vampire "there is no cure for death only release" isn't saying anything about vampirism. Also, Kain never ever EVER puts any differentiation between death and Vampirism, since he calls vampirism "unlife", which means "death". He can't call it death because Vamps die too. She doesn't say "die", she says "release", which likely means that he would return to a MORTAL death (Heaven or hell, and since Nosgoth is religious, he might think that he would enter Heaven due to the good he is doing by saving Nosgoth). Ariel doesn't deceive at all and definately destroys nothing. Since we don't know of any rules against love, that last sentence is also incorrect.

No, no, no. The One with Morty is all wrong. No one said Morty could not kill others and even ressurect them, that may have been a habitual duty he performed from the beginning to learn the secrets of the dead, no one knows. Malek may have retreated, but that means nothing, it means he embodies conflict, it does not mean he has to be in the middle of it, in fact, Malek built himself a fortress and army, seems perfectly in line with what a Gurdian of Conflict would do to prepare for a siege.

Explain to me how "no one knows", and yet you are so sure that I'm "all wrong"? That's a bit hypocritical. Either way, we know that Guardians get their powers from whatever their link with the Pillar is. And since each Pillar was originally meant to protect Nosgoth, the Pillar of Conflict would likely have to prevent CONFLICTS from erupting into war. Malek thus retreats to his Bastion instead of preventing the wars (the Nemesis).

Your list is only half complete, in that you list the effect, but not the cause. The effect was the misuse of the Pillars powers, the cause was the insanity making them hate Nosgoth and see it as their playtoy. Nupraptor's insanity was a deep hatred for the Circle and Nosgoth. Each Circle member, infected with his madness began to mistrust eachother and began to attack Nosgoth. The Misuse of the Pillars was effect, an aspect of an insanity that would demand their attacking Nosgoth no matter what. See, the madness did not manifest differently, in fact, it manifested quite uniformly, only the tools used were different. The madness was bringing pain, destruction, and death to Nosgoth. The tools were each of the Guardians' Pillars.

Anyone who doesnt know the cause of the Corruption shouldn't be in this discussion. Nupraptor's insanity is explained already, and its not a hatred. It's grief for Ariel's death and a SUSPICION that it was other Circle Members who murdered her. Their madness shapes out to be each member doing the OPPOSITE of what they are apparently their to do (don't say they all attack Nosgoth, because Malek and Mortanius don't, but they ARE insane. That means that Malek's retreat from conflict and Mortanius' resurrecting Kain would have to be the OPPOSITE of what they are meant to do).

Mortanius is a unique case. There is no evidence of his use of his pillar to attack Nosgoth. Do not point at Kain and say, "Ah Ha!" because Kain was actually raised to do what Morty apparently saw no one else could do, cleanse the circle, that Kain was already a person that would bring suffering to others is quite apparent. Morty in fact seemed rather constrained in his insanity, except for one thing, he admits he is no longer sane. (Then there is the whole possession thing, which tends to put a damper on the relationship between Guardian and Pillar)

Read above.

Think about this, could it be, despite his madness, Kain's wrong/selfish decisions are in fact his innate sense of balance manifesting itself despite his madness? Sure, he may not know his not killing himself was the right thing, but it does not mean the Pillar is not acting through him. Kain has an advantage no other Guardian had, he was raised insane from birth with no knowledge of his role as Guardian and the power it gives him. Then there is the dubious manner of the Court of Coorhagen, a cruel and vindictive court from what little we are told of it, that would make Kain seem only a little more extreme than his fellow noblemen. Such an upbringing may have caused the madness in him to be somewhat different.

I just said that. Look at it like this: if you punch a guy because he ran and bumped into you, and later found out that he was running from a bank robbery, you DIDN'T punch him to stop a burgler, you PUNCHED HIM because he BUMPED INTO YOU. Kain finds out LATER that what he did was good. At the TIME, however, he is doing it for HIMSELF. Just because it becomes the RIGHT decision doesn't make it the HONEST one. Also, his upbringing as a Coorhagen noble has no bearing on his insanity. He just grows up with the times, and makes bids for power. It's his MADNESS that causes him to place this above the welfare of the world and to not care of his fellow man.

Throughout each game it is never seen that he used the Pillars strength in any way, shape, or form. If anything it appears he never was given the benefit of fully developing the symbiotic link to his pillar, which makes it so that balance can still act through him. If he is making the right decisions despite his best efforts to be selfish then maybe he has not misused the Pillar at all and has been serving Balance unwitting from his birth. Something to think on.

And? The Pillars are DESTROYED. Besides, quite possibly, the power of the Pillar of Balance is to restore the Balance. Perhaps KAIN was the only one who could kill the other Pillars because HE was the Pillar of Balance. Maybe THIS was the power of the Pillar, to shape the Pillars and Nosgoth as needed. Kain abuses this without even knowing, then.

It was selfish, but was he truly placing himself above balance, or was balance perhaps exerting enough influence on him to truly make him decide to embrace his vampirism? After all, any true balance guardian would have known through the balance itself that their death would not have served the balance, they would have felt it, if not known it (another indication that Ariel is not still part of the balance).

We know that the Pillar of Balance was corrupt because it is CRACKED and BLACK, showing that Kain is also tainted with MADNESS. THAT is the irony, since he does the opposite of what he was meant to do since birth (the opposite of the Pillar's essence, since that apparently is the nature of the Madness). Kain's death would restore the Pillars as far as anyone knew. Kain does not choose to live because he thinks it won't restore Balance; he is quite plain, actually. "Once I embraced my powers I realized that Vorador was correct. We are gods - dark gods - and it is our duty to thin the herd." Thus, as I pointed out, he LIKES being a Vampire now and since he is the STRONGEST being in the world, he decides to keep living.

[Non-existent]

BadGuys:

You would have to be pretty uneducated in vampire lore to not think that telling a vampire "there is no cure for death only release" isn't saying anything about vampirism. Also, Kain never ever EVER puts any differentiation between death and Vampirism, since he calls vampirism "unlife", which means "death". He can't call it death because Vamps die too. She doesn't say "die", she says "release", which likely means that he would return to a MORTAL death (Heaven or hell, and since Nosgoth is religious, he might think that he would enter Heaven due to the good he is doing by saving Nosgoth). Ariel doesn't deceive at all and definately destroys nothing. Since we don't know of any rules against love, that last sentence is also incorrect.

Nope, you'd have to be a recently resurrected mortal who wanted revenge and now wants to be alive again. Kain probably did want to be alive, if he wanted death he could have at any time. Notice how he does not jump in a lake, or drink some poisoned blood, or any of the multitude of things that can kill him, and quite quickly at that?

To quote BO1 directly:

Kain: Only when all the Pillars were restored, did Ariel claim my curse would end.

He may very well be holding out for a cure even though he was told one does not exist. If all he wants is to die he can at about any moment he so chooses. Ironically even though he is told by Morty that to truly get revenge he needs to go after the Pillar Guardians he does not mention revenge once more, meaning he abandoned it for a cure. Ariel did trick him, she gave him hope telling him that if he killed Nup and the others he would find peace from his torment, yet being Kain it sure does not sound like he equates peace with death now does it?

I am not saying he did not know he would find death as the release, the game happens to breeze over that. The fact that he looks for a cure when he is not truly immortal though suggests that he may have been looking for some other answer than death, and he was most assuredly tricked into ridding the Circle Members, the trick started the moment he was assassinated so Morty could offer to raise him up. Ariel continued the deception with neglecting to tell important facts, she did not have to tell him about him being Balance Guardian, but there were many things she could have told him, such as the Oracle being Moebius, she knew, she did not tell, he could have lopped Moebius' head quite quickly, saved the world from much pain. Ariel is as much an instrument in setting Kain up with his terrible decision as Moebius, Hash, and the others were.

Explain to me how "no one knows", and yet you are so sure that I'm "all wrong"? That's a bit hypocritical. Either way, we know that Guardians get their powers from whatever their link with the Pillar is. And since each Pillar was originally meant to protect Nosgoth, the Pillar of Conflict would likely have to prevent CONFLICTS from erupting into war. Malek thus retreats to his Bastion instead of preventing the wars (the Nemesis).

WTF? Did you just go off on a tangent? Yes, yes you did. I said the one with Morty is wrong, and it is, Morty holds sway over death, his ressurecting people does not automatically make him misuse his power. Morty has done more than that, or else his binding Malek to his armor would have been misuse because he made it so Malek's soul can never go to the underworld.

As for Malek: Prevent conflict? HA! Have you even seen what Malek does? He spreads as much conflict as he prevents, or do you not remember inumerable deaths of vampires and humans in his 'righteous' quest to rid Nosgoth of its Evils? Malek does about anything but 'prevent' conflict.

Anyone who doesnt know the cause of the Corruption shouldn't be in this discussion. Nupraptor's insanity is explained already, and its not a hatred. It's grief for Ariel's death and a SUSPICION that it was other Circle Members who murdered her. Their madness shapes out to be each member doing the OPPOSITE of what they are apparently their to do (don't say they all attack Nosgoth, because Malek and Mortanius don't, but they ARE insane. That means that Malek's retreat from conflict and Mortanius' resurrecting Kain would have to be the OPPOSITE of what they are meant to do).

Don't even try that pathetic attempt to say I do not know the cause of the Circle's madness. You obviously misunderstood me. I very well know Nupraptor caused the Circles' members to go insane but it was not the simple misuse of the pillars that made them corrupt, it was that the corruption of Nup's mental blast made the Circle members fill with pain and hatred and thus they misused their pillars. They could have used their Pillars like they always did and the Pillars would have been cracked, because the Pillars reflect the mental and physical states of their Guardians, not thier use of.

As for Nup's insanity:

Kain: Nupraptor, with his blind act of vengeance threatened to destroy all of Nosgoth.

Ariel: My murder at the hands of this beast drove my love Nupraptor mad. Now he spreads misery and pain among the Circle, crumbling the very foundation of Nosgoth.

Nupraptor: Come, Kain . . . come share my pain . .

Kain: She spoke of his self-mutilation, sewing his eyes and lips shut to deny the outside world. Fueled by despair and hopelessness, he turned his magic on the Circle, infecting their minds with his madness.

So, let us see, no, it is not suspicion. It is Pain, Misery, Suffering and Hatred, something Nupraptor felt at the death of Ariel and something he spread to all others. Paranoia may be included, but, let's face it, Paranoia is not going to suddenly make someone do the opposite of what they are meant to. Hatred, Pain, Misery, and the want to spread it sure will though.

I just said that. Look at it like this: if you punch a guy because he ran and bumped into you, and later found out that he was running from a bank robbery, you DIDN'T punch him to stop a burgler, you PUNCHED HIM because he BUMPED INTO YOU. Kain finds out LATER that what he did was good. At the TIME, however, he is doing it for HIMSELF. Just because it becomes the RIGHT decision doesn't make it the HONEST one. Also, his upbringing as a Coorhagen noble has no bearing on his insanity. He just grows up with the times, and makes bids for power. It's his MADNESS that causes him to place this above the welfare of the world and to not care of his fellow man.

No, actually you did not just say what I said. I said that despite everything he was still serving the balance unwittingly despite wanting to be selfish. You just said it was coincidence. There is a difference. You say that even though it turns out right it is coincidence and ok, I say the Pillar is still making him serve the Balance in the only way it can to eventually right itself. Difference is that one leaves Free Will completely in Kain's hands (your version) and the other means Destiny is still using Kain as a pawn (my version).

As for Coorhagen: Should I find the quotes of Coorhagen again? You think that was a place where he would have cared about his fellow man? Let me do that.

Kain: Coorhagen - my home - the finest city in all of Nosgoth, rich in vanity and conceit. I had no delusions as to the welcome I would receive.

Kain: Ottmar slumped on his throne like a rag doll, his beard matted with the tears of his own self-pity. In my court, he would have long since been usurped by one stronger, but in Willendorf they worshipped him, even in his weakness.

And let us not forget the most important thing:

Kain: Vae Victus - suffering to the conquered. Ironic that now I was the one suffering.

Then there is numerous quotes I can show where Kain literally revels in the act of killing and bloodshed.

With Paranoia, wait, no, you said Suspicion, a much weaker form of Paranoia, anways, with Suspicion Kain would not revel in Carnage and he would not place himself about the world, after all, Suspicion may cause him to work harder to protect the world suspecting just about all things of working against balance. Hatred, Misery, and the spreading of it would make a person place themself above all others. And, in case you cannot tell, Coorhagen, from the sounds of it, is the perfect court to raise a person who is quite insane into a model that can survive in the world, because if they cannot survive in a court where it is dog eat dog they will get replaced.

And? The Pillars are DESTROYED. Besides, quite possibly, the power of the Pillar of Balance is to restore the Balance. Perhaps KAIN was the only one who could kill the other Pillars because HE was the Pillar of Balance. Maybe THIS was the power of the Pillar, to shape the Pillars and Nosgoth as needed. Kain abuses this without even knowing, then.

This whole argument does not fly. The Pillars were restored, they were not destroyed until he refused to die. Are you saying that nothing is wrong until he chose? Because, if he is the only one that can restore the Pillars he is still serving Balance as it was meant to be served so by your logic his Pillar should not appear corrupt until he refuses to die. The fact is, if the only way to restore the Balance was by killing the corrupt Guardians then he never abused his the power of the Pillar of Balance until he made his choice to not die. So, Kain actually serves the Pillar, yet more, and does not abuse the power until the very end upon which he makes his act with full knowledge of consequence. Does not sound like he ever placed himself above the balance until the end there, but in fact, it sure sounds like his and the Balance Pillars purposes ran parallel. Now, why would the Pillar be corrupt from the word go, before he can even fully form conscious thought then? Why, could it be because maybe the misuse of the Pillar is nothing but an effect of the wanting to spread Pain throughout the world? Why, yes, yes it could.

Your Pillar argument is faulty. I will explain more in a moment, after addressing this quote by you:

We know that the Pillar of Balance was corrupt because it is CRACKED and BLACK, showing that Kain is also tainted with MADNESS. THAT is the irony, since he does the opposite of what he was meant to do since birth (the opposite of the Pillar's essence, since that apparently is the nature of the Madness). Kain's death would restore the Pillars as far as anyone knew. Kain does not choose to live because he thinks it won't restore Balance; he is quite plain, actually. "Once I embraced my powers I realized that Vorador was correct. We are gods - dark gods - and it is our duty to thin the herd." Thus, as I pointed out, he LIKES being a Vampire now and since he is the STRONGEST being in the world, he decides to keep living.

And, I never said he did not like being a vampire. Misuse of the Pillar would require more than the intent to do the opposite, it would require truly doing the opposite. He can intend to throw the world out of Balance all he wants, but if he actually brings the world into Balance at all then he is not misusing the Pillar and only intending to. Intent has little to with it in your Pillar argument, and that is why you are faulty in it.

You Pillar argument hinges on that they actually do the opposite of what they are meant to to abuse the Pillar and thus be corrupt. This means that until they abuse the Pillars powers the Pillar should not be corrupt. (If you do not think that is what your argument is saying read over it again)

Kain can intend to do whatever he likes, but if he serves the Balance he is not abusing the Pillars power so under your defintion of the insanity it should not be corrupt. Now, if infact he is actually filled with a deep abiding dislike for Nosgoth (which is evidence when he says he cares nothing for Nosgoth to Ariel) then that might be different. The Pillar was corrupt long before it was abused, but you say the insanity makes them do the opposite of what they would do, which does not mean intending to do the opposite, it means the willful abuse of the Pillars power. Kain does that only once, at the end. Up to that point he is serving the Balance, by restoring the Pillar, but the Pillar is still cracked. Why? Because he is Insane you will say, and I will agree, but, sadly that does not go with everything else you have been saying.

Their madness shapes out to be each member doing the OPPOSITE of what they are apparently their to do

"madness shapes out to be each DOING the OPPOSITE of what they are apparently there to do" Intent is not a part of that equation. That means that despite intent they can end up still serving the Pillar faithfully.

The real insanity is that they all give up serving Nosgoth as a whole, more than just the Pillars, and then they cap that off with making Nosgoth suffer. What was the one common theme in all case of Circle members and their abuse of Nosgoth? They brought Pain, Suffering, and Death. Even had they not used the Pillars to do it the Pillars would have cracked. It is not that they were made to use their Pillars in a contrary manner, it was that they came to attack Nosgoth and the Life on Nosgoth. They were no longer the Protectors of Nosgoth, but its attackers. That is opposite, true, but they did not need to abuse the Pillars to be considered so or to have the Pillars crack. The Pillars became a tool, something they used but not something that the misuse of determined they were insane. By your logic if the Pillar is not misused the Guardian is not corrupt. Kain, who up until the end of the game, does not misuse his Pillar, and it is corrupt. Saying he is insane to defend your argument does not work, because your defintion of insanity is doing the opposite of what they were meant to with the Pillar. So Kain's Pillar should not be corrupted, until the end, where no matter his choice he cannot serve Balance, but up until that point he is doing what he is meant to by restoring the Pillars and bringing back Balance.